PTS Questions

[fidleyspromise]

Taking 12 yr old GSD to vet this afternoon and I'm terrrified they're going to say PTS Her hindlegs are starting to go wobbly.

The last time I had a dog PTS was just before I got the GSD and I insisted on going with my dad as I didn't feel they could do anything for her. She fell over and struggled to stand! I remember them examining her and saying something about her liver/kidneys failing and they could give her tablets or other. My dad deferred to me and I asked for her to be PTS. I'd expected to be allowed to hold her while they did it but they asked us both to step outside.

Was this because I was 15yrs old or was/is that common practice?

I want to prepare myself in case this is the end for my girl, and so will I be allowed to stay with her?

My girl:

 

[g16]

i've never had a dog pts before but when i've been visiting practice the owners have always stayed with the dog. one dog was pts out in the car aswel. i think you need to explain to the vets you want to be there. most should be ok with this. if you're worried about what it will be like its very gentle and you can just hold her head and occupy yourself with that and not watch the needle.
good luck- shes a stunning dog and its not an easy decision

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Just say you want to be there if it comes to PTS. You could have the vet come out to you which we did as Jake got quite stressed at the vet's.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I'm sorry you are facing this with your girl. It was possibly because of your age that the vet didn't want to stay, I have always given the option to stay with my dogs at the end. Just tell the vets you want to be there, they should have no objection, as others have said you could always ask them to come to your home if you feel she would be happier, or out to the car at the vets.
I ask for my dogs to be sedated first, they have always gone very peacefully.

 

[BigRed]

Sometimes dogs squeak or struggle when they insert the needle into the vein on their leg. Quite rightly, it distresses the owner. So I can see why the vet would ask you to step outside. As MurphysMinder has said - I would specifically ask/tell the vet you want the dog to be sedated first. That jab does not bother them. It does take longer for the final jab to work, so some vets don't want to do it.

I try to have my dogs pts at home. If you have a dog who is worried by being at the vet's, I think it's nicer.

 

[moosea]

Sometimes dogs squeak or struggle when they insert the needle into the vein on their leg.

It is worth asking the vet if they can give a strong sedative before PTS - the dog is then asleep while they find the vein - no squeaking, no struggling.

Hugs for you and your beautiful dog.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Our Northern Inuit

has had crucial ligament and he has hip displacia.

he is wobbly and lame but he still comes out and wants to come out with the horses on a ride..

Our vet recommended Metcalm he is also been changed onto Hills mobility .

We have noticed a difference.


before the change of diet he was also on devils claw and flexijoint. Both of these helped him...

I am sure there is something you can do.


Oh yes the other thing we did that made a huge difference is on the water treadmill, he improved allot on this .

My dad deferred to me and I asked for her to be PTS. I'd expected to be allowed to hold her while they did it but they asked us both to step outside.

Was this because I was 15yrs old or was/is that common practice?

I want to prepare myself in case this is the end for my girl, and so will I be allowed to stay with

When our first GSD had kidney/liver failure our vets let us hold him he was in my arms when he went to sleep he did not make any sound just went to sleep.

 

[Alexart]

I always get mine done at home - far less stressful for them especially ones that don't like the vets! It is entirely your decision wether the animal is pts - the vet can only advise you - generally speaking once their backend starts to go it is usually not a good sign, but they may try a few tablets/anti inflamatory jab if you want to give her a bit more time, 12 is a very good age for a big dog!
And yes you should be allowed to stay with your pet when pts - some vets don't like children staying as it doesn't always go smoothly and the twitching/flailing afterwards from reflexes, even though the animal is dead, can be very upsetting to some, also most won't allow the owner to hold their pet as they can struggle when the jab is administered so for safeties sake they have a nurse to hold the animal steady. If they have a heart condition it can take a few seconds longer for them to slip away too - I had my 12yr old ridgeback pts a few weeks ago and he had a heart problem so it meant the drug took longer to circulate his system so he did fight it a bit, despite being sedated, and he let out a very loud long howl which was not very nice to watch but he was slipping into unconciousness at that point. They can also pee and poop themselves as the muscles contract after they die - so do be prepared but usually 9 times out of 10 they drop off the end of the needle, pretty much all of mine have, and are well away before they even finish injecting them - I always get mine sedated first too so they are well away with the fairies and don't notice the actual jab.
Good luck with what you decide - only you can say what is best for your pet as you know her best and wether she still has a quality of life and is not suffering which is the most important thing.

 

[Ranyhyn]

My dog did not struggled or fight, but he was quite poorly. It was really very peaceful and gentle, it's just like them nodding off on your lap. I left my dog there, one of my biggest regrets but then I didn't have my own home and didn't like the idea of ever moving away from where he was buried. So I guess he was cremated.
Love and thoughts to you if it comes to it. It's heartbreaking but not as bad as I had envisaged x

ETA: sorry to say but often animals lose their bowels after being put down, so don't be worried but be prepared. xx

 

[touchstone]

I often find that is is the thinking about it that is the worst part, if it's any consolation I had my two beloved dogs put down in October and November, one had lymphoma and was 13 years, the other seemed well and boisterous in himself, but was getting bloat after every meal on an evening and in terrible pain every night, he was 14 and I suspect had something going on internally.

I always have the vet to the house if I can, it is far less stressful for me and the dog.

The first dog didn't need sedation, he was fed his favourite treats and given a big cuddle and spoken to reassuringly by me while the vet injected him, he slipped away quietly.

My second dog hated vets and anything medical, even flea drops were a nightmare, and he would become aggressive. We had to put a muzzle on and I held him while the vet popped a sedative in his back, the muzzle was then taken off and he got his ball and started to play, he eventually fell asleep with the ball in his mouth bless him and the vet injected him in the vein in his hindleg which was easier, he didn't feel a thing.

Neither were horrible for the dog or myself, although still not pleasant or what I wanted to do.

It may well be that your dog isn't ready to be pts, but if you want to be with him then say that, but be sure you aren't going to get upset and distress the dog until it's done. I'm sure the vet would be happy to let you stay if you asked, at the end of the day it is your dog.

 

[fidleyspromise]

Thank you everyone, it has helped to ease my mind somewhat. Good to know that there are a few success stories out there.

Its tough because she's mentally sound, but physically has been gradually going downhill. She still wants to play and chase a ball and go for long walks.

The vets is an hour from home, and dog doesn't get stressed. It may not be the end, but if I prepare mentally for the worst, then I won't be blind-sided if it comes to that. The idea has always been for her to be buried with the other family pets but like B DC, I don't like the thought of not being able to visit her, so I think I'll go for cremation - when the time comes.

Sorry to hear of those who have had their beloved dogs PTS xx

 

[paulineh]

If you have a hydrotherapy pool near you that could be a way of helping her legs.

 

[Sandstone1]

Its your dog, the vet cant tell yu to pts only advise. these days there are quite a lot of things you can do to give them quite a good quality of life in old age. Metacam, rimadyl, previcox all painkillers that can help arthritis etc.

hydrotherapy, acupuncture etc can also help, so its not ness te end of the road.
However if it is time to let her go and really its only you who can decide that, then you should be allowed to stay with her and it is most often a very peacefull thing. Good luck and I hope she has a bit more time with you.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As a GSD it is probably likely that she has CDRM as opposed to HD...it's more neurological than skeletal and mixing the two conditions up is a common confusion.
While it is painless, there is no cure for this. The dog begins eventually to drag it's hindlegs and is unable to toilet itself. Left too long the condition spreads to the front legs.
She is 12 years old, it usually becomes apparent 10-12 years old.
Dogs you see on 'wheels' often have this, they have to go around on a cart because they cannot support their own back legs, the messages from the brain are not transmitted to the rear of the body properly.

Not trying to depress you OP but equally, I have had two bitches with the condition and the very minute any GSD of mine is unable to stand unaided/struggle to get up, it is time. They are a big, weightbearing breed, and a very proud breed - my mother let the older bitch linger on for two years and it was not pleasant.
Again, sorry to be a doom monger but just preparing you for what may happen and to back you up - you know your girl is not right, it is obvious from your posts.

Re PTS, I was not present when my CDRM girl was put to sleep, she was 14, I saw her out my bedroom window struggling to get up, I told my mother, the vet was called and within half an hour, she had gone. She had broken a leg in puppyhood, she had enjoyed a fantastic life and had given us lots of fun and laughter and love and we owed it to her not to let her suffer.
She did not struggle as she knew the vet and had been treated by him her whole life, however she did apparently self-evacuate so that is another thing to bear in mind.

Thinking of you, whatever decision you decide to make x

 

[vieshot]

Christ this thread is tear jerking :-(

 

[MurphysMinder]

If it is CDRM then no amount of pain relief will help, but on the plus side it is not a painful condition. Like CC I have lost several dogs to this horrible condition and I too have made the decision to pts once they are unable to get to their feet unaided, falling over etc. Its very hard as they are still mentally active and alert, but for this very reason I do not like to keep them going when they are unable to get about. I hope your girl has something that is treatable OP, but if this is not the case my thoughts are with you x

 

[NOISYGIRL]

I had no control over my GSD when he died as it happened overnight at the vets when I wasn't there, I have been sorry ever since I left him there and swore I would never let that happen again.

My other dog was PTS on her 16th birthday, she had come to exist rather than have a life so I decided to have her put down. I stayed with her the whole time they explained everything to me, it was like she just went to sleep, be prepared though for movement after, its normal

 

[EAST KENT]

Stay with your dog whispering sweet nothings until the sedative has taken effect,then you can go if the leg vein injection will cause you unbearable upset.Your dog will not notice your absence by then ,and it is easier for the vet and nurse to work without worrying about you.

 

[springtime13]

I'd always have mine PTS at home with me cuddling them. It's just how I want it to be. My beloved Hazel was PTS a few months ago and she just slipped away, with just a few hiccupy sounds. The vet said it was the air leaving her lungs and she had already passed by then. I've heard some horror stories about vets taking them into the back room without the owner present. A vet nurse I'm friendly with said that some small town vets aren't confident about getting into a vein and so inject them into the stomach instead. Not sure how true this is, but she said it's a much more long and painful way to go.

 

[Oberon]

This thread is timely.

My old girl was diagnosed with CDRM in August last year.

She is otherwise happy and healthy but her brain is forgetting about her back legs.

In the last few weeks, her worst leg drags every fifth step.

It won't be long now and I have so many questions and worries about the end.

 

[fidleyspromise]

Slight over-reaction but on the plus side, she's come home and vets are happy with her. I feel like I've been a bit of a drama queen over this,

I honestly thought they were going to tell me that she is fairly bad and my heart has been breaking all day, as this is the first GSD I've had that's not gone peacefully in sleep, before back legs etc have started to go.

They checked her heart, weight, front legs, back legs, hips and teeth. She has arthritis in the hips - so I have metacam to see if that helps - and her food is to be reduced to get 3KG off of her weight.

She was fairly lethargic etc going to the vet and when she came out, she went trotting off and there just seemed to be a spark about her. BUT, I really need to sort out my planning for when the time comes.

Sorry to hear that Oberon x I always thought I'd be clear cut in when I'd PTS, but when they seem happy and healthy it's so much harder.

CC - I'll keep an eye on anything changing and will read up on CDRM. This is her 3rd visit ever to the vet, and she takes everything in her stride, but I'll be taking her more regularly now so they can monitor her.

 

[twiglet84]

I would recommend a joint supplement too if its arthritis - a decent product like seraquin or cosequin (human brands are not as good). Im glad it wasnt as bad as you expected and fingers crossed with the right management your'll have plenty of time left together xxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Aru]

OP
I understand where you are at he moment my own Lab is 11 this year and having come home from exams I met a different dog to the one I had seen a few weeks earlier.
She appeared to have become so old so quickly.
She has had issues with one of her forelimbs for a long time which was managed with supplement and carthrophen for almost 2 years now but when I seen her Hips were also now causing her discomfort. Shes also become completely deaf as well though that has being a gradual issue.
I took her to my vet who Ive known for years and done practice with half expecting to be given the end may be coming talk and expecting to start on palliative care....very much an overreaction on my part as well as it happens but I was stressing out about losing her and was going through all the options in my head.He told me I was in owner mode not vet mode.

She was put on metacam. Its an NSAID.Painkiller and anti-inflammatory.Its not without sideffects so I must admit I have being holding off using it.Something I really regret now! The next day she came with me for the longest walk in Id say almost a year, bouncing along like a pup again as she couldn't feel her legs hurting her.The happiest I have seen her in a long time. I have to admit I was in tears at the end that I was thinking of putting her down the day before without considering that she might have improved so much on medication!
I have no excuse for not realising it.. Ive heard loads of people say it to me in practice that It made a difference to their dogs and I know how it works etc but had never experienced the difference for myself...but in my rambling way what I am trying to say is If she is uncomfortable and supplements etc are not helping I would seriously think about using true pain control drugs. Yes they can cause side effects but quality of life is so important.I seriously regret not having put our Jess on them earlier.

Shes also on a weight reduction diet as well getting 20 percent less of her food and is not at all impressed with it. Shes is overweight its being a constant battle to try and keep weight off her but hopefully now that she's back able to exercise again it will help.
I hope your girl will do well on her new plan

. I've heard some horror stories about vets taking them into the back room without the owner present. A vet nurse I'm friendly with said that some small town vets aren't confident about getting into a vein and so inject them into the stomach instead. Not sure how true this is, but she said it's a much more long and painful way to go.

Your vet nurse needs to revise her basic pharmacology. The drug used to put animals to sleep,phenobarbitol, is a sedative first and foremost.It used to be used for anasthetising animals way back when. It should not be more painful to give that way to an animal.

--------WARNING SOME OF THIS MAY BE NOT ADVISED FOR SENSITIVE READERS AS EXPLAINS PTS INJECTION TYPES-----

Intraperitoneal injections,the injection into the abdomen can be used to put cats and dogs to sleep though it is not very common in dogs. With IP injections the animal becomes initially sedated and then slowly drifts off unconsciousness and onwards as the overdose hits the heart.It can take quite a long time so is not generally used.
The difference in blood supply from the abdomen to the heart means that it takes much longer to drift off than an IV injection or even an organ injection
(Organs use is rare but in some cases if no veins can be found or they are all blown due to poor veins,dehydration or poor blood supply etc in a sedated dog a single injection into the heart or more rarely the liver or kidneys can be used. The blood supply to the heart means the injection will work swiftly and let them slip off. Its not nice to see but it is a quick and relatively painless injection(it is an intramuscular injection so not 100 percent painless) but it is quick and the dog does not need to suffer on through more attempts at finding veins)
I have seen IP or kidney injections many times in cats who were very old and dehydrated with kidneys issues.Trying to inject a vein there would put the poor cats through a lot of restraint and likely a number of injections might be required to find a working vein.Instead of all this as an owner is petting them one injection that was barely noticed is given then they just gentle drifted off to sleep and onwards.In very agitated cats a sedative is given first. Yes it not ideal and certainly the vein is always going to be the preferred method as its delivering the drug straight to the heart but its not the terrible thing that your friend has painted it as. In some cases one injection and very little handling can be the kindest thing.

Some dogs are given sedative prior to euthanasia but not all.Sedatives can cause low blood pressure and make veins more difficult to give injections. The less times needed to try and get a vein for a euthanasia the happier everyone involved will be. In some dogs who do not mind needles a single injection is all that is needed .In others sedation beforehand makes the whole scenario less stressful as they can just sleep in their owners arms as the vet gives the injection or injections. Its all very much a personal choice for the owner and the vet involved. Some owners stay,others do not.For some seeing the dog sleeping is the best way to say goodbye and the leave before the final injection. Its again all a personal choice.

I know I've likely used a load of to clinical words while talking about the types of injections but one thing I would like to stress is all Vets want your dog to have the most stress free and smooth passing over as they can. Knowing the types of injections possible help us have options in the less than ideal scenarios.None of them are designed to have the pet suffer.The gift to euthanasia is designed so dogs do not have to suffer a natural painful death and It can sometimes be the kindest and best treatment.