Public liability - horse or rider?

[jojo5]

Not sure if this is a silly question - excuse if so, feverish with bug. My current public liability insurance only covers claims if I (as opposed to someone else) am riding my horse. Does anyone have/know of a policy that covers the horse for public liability for a rider(s) other than owner? Thanks.

 

[be positive]

A horse cannot be claimed against, it is the rider or handler responsible for the horse that needs insurance, most policies will cover any rider/ handler as long as they have your permission and are not being paid/ paying to be in change of the horse, check the wording again.
If someone else is riding him and your policy really does not give cover then they should have their own insurance, BHS will suffice or a riders policy for non owners.

 

[jojo5]

Hi, be positive, thanks for your reply. This is the wording in brief:-
'

• Personal Liability up to £10,000,000 for accidental bodily injury to any person or damage to property (subject to the policy exclusions)
•  The cover is for up to two horses for an individual member and 3 horses for a family membership, that you own or any that you have on permanent loan or share agreement in your full care and control.
•  Coverwithinthestatedlimitsisalsoprovidedforhorsesownedbyotherswhileinyourfullcareandcontrol.
•  Should you choose to take a family membership the cover is available for up to 4 relatives residing at the
  same address.
•  This policy covers recreational riding and ownership of horses, including fu n rides, local gymkhanas, hunting,
  leisure driving and unaffiliated dressage and jumping shows. All other activities are excluded.

I spoke to the provider and they did ask me if the other rider I was speaking about was being paid and I confirmed that they were not. They then said that even so, the liability was only in force if I was riding.

 

[sunnyone]

Now I am confused.

Your question is about PUBLIC liability, but the paragraph you quote is about "PERSONAL liability"

 

[jojo5]

This is the wording on the PUBLIC liability information page.

 

[be positive]

It is a very limited cover of last resort, probably less cover than the BHS one and is not well worded or thought out, it covers hunting which must be one of the highest risks of causing injury to a third party, I bet many claims will be wriggled out of in the full terms and conditions which will be far more detailed.

 

[Leandy]

I'm not an insurance expert but I would think the point about your policy is that it covers you in respect of damage caused whilst a horse is in your care and control. If your horse is in someone else's care and control they should have their own insurance because they will likely be liable and not you. Insurance only covers legal liability so if you are not legally liable then you won't be covered. I would expect that the other rider and not you would be legally liable if they are riding your horse and cause damage to a third party. In the event however that you were somehow found legally liable for the damage as the owner of the horse, rather than the rider being responsible, have you checked whether you have third party insurance elsewhere eg under your house insurance policy?

 

[be positive]

If you have house insurance check that to see if you are covered to allow people to ride your horse, that will be the first policy, if you have any, that any claims will be sent to so could be more inclusive, otherwise you will need to ensure any one else handling or riding has their own cover.

 

[jojo5]

Thanks for all this info, Be Positive and Leandy! Could I just ask, Be Positive, what would be included in Public Liability in the BHS that is not in this? I have a 14 day cooling off period so could change. I don't think, though, that BHS offers vets fees for accidental injury only which I do have on this policy. I have other arrangements for vets fees for illness. I have previously had another policy for many, many years for my boy that I lost at Christmas and now the insurance policy world has broadened somewhat!

 

[be positive]

I may be wrong but I think the BHS will cover people riding/ handling with permission, do check as it may have changed. The BHS do not cover horses for injury/ illness but the one you have is very limited on what is covered and the £1500 vets bill will go nowhere near covering a major accidental injury which may require investigations.

I would also be cautious about having 2 different vet fees covers with 2 companies as illness and injury can overlap which could leave you in a tricky situation if both decide not to pay out, a horse on box rest with a nasty cut could get colic, make the injury worse and require further treatment, company 1 should still pay for the injury but may decline if company 2 are covering the colic or they blame illness as the cause of the additional injury, it is an unlikely scenario but could also cause your vets a headache when trying to treat, many injuries are not external/ accidental and at the moment they are not covered by either company.
I don't insure my horses but if I did I would want a fully inclusive, subject to exclusions they may put in, cover for PL and vet cover to allow £5k of vets fees/ investigations/ surgery etc as otherwise I don't really see much point, most minor injuries I can pay for as and when, anything major I would pts if really bad as they are retired and I would not put them through extensive investigations or long term box rest.

 

[jojo5]

Thanks so much again for your very thoughtful response, BP. It is all a difficult call. I appreciate your comments regarding the costs of vet bills ( having paid out a great deal over the last 25 years!) I have looked at the standard insurance providers - my first realisation was that premiums for young horses, such as I am taking on, have increased since I last paid one (my boy that I lost - in the pic - was 31 and so I had been paying reduced premiums for some time.) I was also interested to discover, from Petplan, that from a proposed annual premium of 679 GBP, 339 of this represented solely the premium for vet treatment of illness. Of course I want public liability and personal accident cover - i then found out that some providers offer simply accidental injury cover for equines. I understand what you are saying about using two separate companies for injury and illness but this would not be the case - I am considering funding illness treatment through an investment. I will certainly check the BHS small print again - it looks as if the weekend will be spent online and in long insurance company phone calls!!

 

[Suechoccy]

I am BHS gold and I queried the BHS about their cover for my horses if being ridden by my friends. My traditional understanding was that BHS Gold covered me and me for my horses' actions including when they were being handled/ridden by my friends with my permission. That used to be the case. It is no longer the case. I was told BHS Gold will only cover my horses actions for public liability when being ridden by friends with my permission IF those friends are very very infrequent riders. If I allow a friend to ride regularly/frequently with my permission, then that friend needs their own liability insurance. I asked what "frequent" or "infrequent" meant but they were unable to clarify.
So if you have friends riding your horses, ask them to take out their own liability insurance, BHS Gold is good in theory as it's £10million, World Horse Welfare is much cheaper cost but I can't remember the limit. Either way, these types of insurances are insurances-of-last-resort so the first thing that will happen if there is a claim, is the insurer (e.g. BHS) will see if you have household insurance (which often includes liability insurance) and if so, the claim will move onto that I believe.

 

[jojo5]

Thanks for this S. I have asked the person who may ride him to obtain their own insurance as I obvs wish them to have personal accident as well, but this question came up following a conversation i had with my new provider. It is very useful to know the position of the BHS as you describe. What a massive loophole that word ‘infrequent’ could represent!!

 

[flying_high]

Interesting. I have public liability through BD. They told me in writing that it would cover any horse I owned or had on long term loan being ridden or handled by me or others on a non commercial basis. And the horses by themselves eg if escaped from field snd got onto road.

 

[Red-1]

I am BHS gold and I queried the BHS about their cover for my horses if being ridden by my friends. My traditional understanding was that BHS Gold covered me and me for my horses' actions including when they were being handled/ridden by my friends with my permission. That used to be the case. It is no longer the case. I was told BHS Gold will only cover my horses actions for public liability when being ridden by friends with my permission IF those friends are very very infrequent riders. If I allow a friend to ride regularly/frequently with my permission, then that friend needs their own liability insurance. I asked what "frequent" or "infrequent" meant but they were unable to clarify.
So if you have friends riding your horses, ask them to take out their own liability insurance, BHS Gold is good in theory as it's £10million, World Horse Welfare is much cheaper cost but I can't remember the limit. Either way, these types of insurances are insurances-of-last-resort so the first thing that will happen if there is a claim, is the insurer (e.g. BHS) will see if you have household insurance (which often includes liability insurance) and if so, the claim will move onto that I believe.

I took issue with the BHS insurance as I was a trainer at the time but wanted some friends to ride OH's Charlie Horse, as he was partly spare and enjoyed the fun of riding and the odd social party.

I fully understood that if acting as a trainer and taking money, I was not covered, fair enough.

The BHS were slippery as heck, and never really did give a straight answer, as to whether I could have a social time with friends with the 3rd party in force.

I was amazed that it was not a simple enquiry, and really wanted a simple email detailing what I could or could not do. I had several protracted calls, was forwarded to SEIB, who still could not really help with the BHS query. I gave up.

 

[ycbm]

Now I am confused.

Your question is about PUBLIC liability, but the paragraph you quote is about "PERSONAL liability"

This is a common confusion, they are the same.

It is a personal liability to the public which is covered.

Anything which happens to a member of the public or their property for which you are personally liable.


..

 

[JanetGeorge]

Individual personal and public liability as part of a horse insurance is aways full of conditions and horrendously expensive for what it is. As a horse breeder who employs staff, my horses are only included in the numbers of horses I have and the number of staff I employ (had a nice drop for this year as I was down to less than 40 horses and 3 full time staff for the first time in YEARS - despite an outstanding Employer Liability claim that they will eventually settle rather than going to Court. That one really annoys me as it will affect my premium once settled - despite the fact she lied in her claim form, and complicated her own injury by her own stupidity! I just have to hope her 'no win, no fee' solicitor rips her off! But the total annual cost to cover me for any claims is just under £2,000 pa.

 

[be positive]

I think the BHS stance is probably because of the amount of sharers now involved it is becoming a popular way of riding or getting some help with keeping a horse, financial as well as practical, I am not surprised they have changed and think insurance companies will all do so in order to avoid a big payout if they are covering what is a legal loophole.

Paying to ride a horse generally comes under the same rules as a RS, paying to share one does not, yet for an insurer the risk increases because the sharer is often less experienced, sometimes a minor and may not have a first cover in place, the BHS one and many of the other options are last resort cover so unlikely to be the ones that actually payout in the event of an accident.

 

[Kat]

Your public liability insurance generally attaches to you not the horse (the horse can't get sued).

I would advise anyone who rides outside a riding school environment to have their own public liability insurance as it is very cheap via BHS, WHW or your home insurance.

I think the reason people are getting conflicting advice is that there are different scenarios. It would cover you if your horse got loose and caused an accident. It would cover you if your friend had an occasional ride fell off got injured and sued you. It wouldn't cover your friend if while they were riding they were in an accident with a car that was their fault (rather than the horse being disobedient) and the car driver sued them as rider.

 

[jojo5]

Firstly thanks to everyone who is offering their knowledge on this. it does seem as if there are different conditions with different providers - e.g. Kat’s explanation (very clear, thanks) is at odds to a degree with what Flying High has been told by BD, who seem to be suggesting that they are covering her horses (rather than people) as they mention that ‘others ‘ could be riding or handling. Of course, im guessing that there may be different products out there as this is a commercial field, though based upon general legal principles. I have another question - are all types of public liability covers ‘last resort’ products? This is something I had not realised in the past.

 

[Leandy]

Your public liability insurance generally attaches to you not the horse (the horse can't get sued).

I would advise anyone who rides outside a riding school environment to have their own public liability insurance as it is very cheap via BHS, WHW or your home insurance.

I think the reason people are getting conflicting advice is that there are different scenarios. It would cover you if your horse got loose and caused an accident. It would cover you if your friend had an occasional ride fell off got injured and sued you. It wouldn't cover your friend if while they were riding they were in an accident with a car that was their fault (rather than the horse being disobedient) and the car driver sued them as rider.

This

Vet's fees, loss of use, death etc insurance on a horse is different, you are covering your financial loss in respect of that horse. It isn't about legal liability.

Public liability insurance covers your legal liability to the public resulting from the fact that you own/have care of a particular horse or horses generally. So just because the damage to the member of the public is caused by your horse is not sufficient to make a claim. To claim you also need to be legally liable for that damage which usually means you need to owe that person a duty of care and have been negligent, although there are also circumstances where animal owners have strict liability for damage ie liability without having been at fault. If in fact the legal liability lies with another person eg someone else riding your horse and causing a car accident then your insurance won't cover that if it is personal to you because you have no legal responsibility to pay. They need their own for that.

 

[jojo5]

Thanks for this Leandy, I understood this from posts above, but was just pointing out that this was at odds with what a previous poster seemed to have been told by BD in respect of her insurance. Of course the wording to her may have been confusing and may have been referring to the owner being sued by an occasional rider as mentioned by Kat.

 

[Leandy]

I thinkn this demonstrates that different policies have different levels of cover. A bit like car insurance, you can get cover for yourself only, for any named driver, or for any driver. It seems we all need to take care to understand which we have for our horses if we have any expectation that it should cover other people's actions whilst they are in charge of our horses.

 

[Kat]

Unless it is explicitly stated in the policy wording assume that the product only protects the named individual.

Talking about whether you are covered for others riding your horse is too vague as there are so many scenarios. Often it will be fine as the liability will lie with the owner irrespective of who is riding/handling but given how huge claims can be and how cheap public liability cover is I would just insist that anyone riding your horse has their own policy.

Insurers will avoid paying out if they can do so legally.

 

[jojo5]

Thanks again for all these responses. I hope they have been useful to others as well.