Pulling the reins or not turning the body enough? pics

Zabby

Zabby

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I'm having some things to think about from my last lesson.

The task was to walk around the half circle of poles and then turn. Crow jumped out of it in the middle.

My trainer say he did that because I pulled the reins and didn't turn my body enough.
I say the horse stumbled/hit one of the poles with the hindfeet and decided to leave the situation (none of us have trained more than few sessions, so it's new to both of us.) I've probably done something to bother his balance since he hit it.. but I can't see where I would have pulled his mouth?


(clicking to enlarge should work if I got this right)

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if I really should ride for this instructor. I feel that we get tasks that we're not ready for yet (this one is probably good, but others with lots of tiny figures around cones etc when we're not managing small figures yet, just large ones - at least on a loose rein) and I feel like I'm not really getting help with the things I need to sort out first. If I'm going to do these tiny figures I'll have to do it slow, and to do it slow I needa good way to keep Crow calm and slow. He gets stressed and rushy when it's too much at once and we both need time between obstacles to re-balance and figure out the next one. I need a good half-halt but I'm not allowed to use the reins, as soon as I do my trainer tells me to let go. When I explain that I ony take the rein because I feel Crow rushing through my seat, he tells me that if I don't take the reins, the horse will stop rushing.. I tried that - honestly - and ended up galloping around the arena untill I got told to stop the horse. And watching the ride afterwards, I don't see how I'm not turning my body enough, but the problem is that I yield in my waist and drops my shoulder.. yet I didn't get a word about that, only instructions to turn more.

I do believe it's a good trainer and that he can help me with many things, but I'm not advanced enough to do the things he asks yet. I need help with more basic things before that (I'm not really a western rider, I just figured that it's good training for us to work with this kind of stuff as well, and I'd like to learn to ride more with a lose rein.) I've tried to talk with him but he doesn't seem to believe or understand what I mean.. And then I think; if he can't help me with this, and things like the dropped shoulder, is he really the right trainer for me? How much I want to learn, I still need to learn the right end first and get instructions I can use and see..
 
the horse doesnt look like hes bending around your leg. your not over using the rein. the horse doesnt look infront of you either so instead of doing this kind of thing, id be getting him to move away from your leg. ie leg yeilds and really riding your corners and making sure he is pushing from behind and stays infront of your hand.
if your not happy with your instructor, id change :)
 
I agree with he above poster your reins look loose and it doesn't look like you are pulling them.
 
I can't really see from the pics whats going on - my screen doesn't show all them! What your basically riding is a quarter of a circle from what I can see. Your reins are too loose, not enough inside leg to outside hand and you horse has lost direction. When riding a circle or part of a circle,with or without poles, you need to keep the shape. Aim for the centre of the poles, your body is turning too much and twisting and this is effecting your horse. He's almost turned inside out!
 
Agree with the above posters, also I do kind of think (hard to tell from photos though) that it looks like he may have touched the poles with his back feet, perhaps worried himself and bailed out as you think he did? I would agree with you that you have dropped your shoulder, rather than your trainer who says you are pulling on the reins, as they look pretty loose to me!

Obviously it is hard to tell much from photos, but if you are not happy then can you change instructor?
 
I think I will change the instructor... :S

About the reins being ''too loose'' and that he's not moving away from the leg, that's because the trainer yelled at me as soon as I tried to make any kind of contact with the bit for any reason, and kept telling me to turn my upper body more and more (where I believe I'd have better use of a reminder of that shoulder).

Doing these moves I'd prefer a quiet contact on the rein, less bend and more stability in my side. I need the contact to keep him from rushing at least when doing these things that's new and a bit stressing, it's too many sharp turnes in a row without a break between (after this quarter circle/half circle I was supposed to make a similiar turn in the other direction and zigzag between several cones on a line with poles on both sides, then make a full circle back, turn at the wall and canter over some poles, stopping at the far end of the arena). Surely a fine and useful course.. if you're ready for that kind of riding. Crow got stressed when it was so much and I had trouble keeping him focused when I wasn't allowed to use the reins at all even when he started to tolt/pace. :/ So I tried to keep him calm and slow him dowwn with all other means than the reins, and dropping my shoulder made me lose the outside leg/knee = his outside shoulder.. It all just ended up as a mess.. :/ He's usually very forward and easy to ''collect'' the energy between butt and bit, without more than a light contact..

We can do circels, turns etc on a lose rein and in good balance, but not at all as small as these. I can move his shoulder and haunches in a ''standing still'' circle, if you see what I mean, make shoulder ins etc, but we need to take one thing at a time as it is and not make it this small. And I have to be able to take him back when he starts rushing away from my seat, how else will he learn that loose rein is not the same as a cue for rushing and that I need his focus?
 
even if he rushes you need to ride with your seat and still ride him forwards, you just might have to sit long and tall and control your movement to keep him at a tempo. you want to get him moving where your legs tell him to go, at a forward even pace. i would start with walk. get him walking 'over' his back, then progressing from there. i like him, hes a very lovely horse! :)
 
I can't see where you have pulled on his mouth from looking at the pics. Maybe you shifted (subconsciously) your weight to one side and.....he jumped???

Regarding your instructor. You say he is good, and that you have a good relationship with him. If you are finding the exercises too advanced....have you fully explained how uncomfortable you are with the work load? If you have - and I don't mean a passing 'I'm not sure about this' a full on, face to face, sit down, 'This isn't working for us'..... and he insists on carrying on he is either a, ignorant or b, pushing you to realize your/your horses potential....
 
BSJAlove said:
even if he rushes you need to ride with your seat and still ride him forwards, you just might have to sit long and tall and control your movement to keep him at a tempo. you want to get him moving where your legs tell him to go, at a forward even pace. i would start with walk. get him walking 'over' his back, then progressing from there. i like him, hes a very lovely horse! :)
Click to expand...

I know, but when he ignores the seat? That's what I mean with rushing; he just starts rushing mentally and stops listening. If I don't stop him (with the reins since seat won't work then) he will rush untill he falls into a gallop.
Of course I'm not just pulling the reins, I start with a deep breathe, sit down, tense my thighs and legs slightly (not pushing myself out of the saddle but putting a firmness in the muscles to sit against his moves so that I'll stay in the speed or gait I want rather than having him pushing my seat into a faster move, he's been trained with that) use my voice and then take on the reins. Normally he'll come back by the seat, but in new stressful situations he starts working himself up instead. And everything new and difficult is stressful for him.. It's not pulling the reins either, it's a slight squese, just reminding him I'm there.

Making him slow down this way doesn't cause his back to drop or hollow out, but I need the reins too when the rest isn't working. :3
 
Sorry for being blunt but I think your instructor is a bit of a numpty! You don't turn a horse by turning your whole body. You turn a horse with your seat and (bizarrely) you turn a horse to the right by angling your pelvis to the left. In other words you advance your inside seat bone towards the front of the saddle by a few mm. After you have done that you can make the turn tighter by also turning your shoulders but, as you have found, if all you do is turn your shoulders it leads to your inside seatbone floating out behind you and you lose all ability to make your horse do any sort of turn through his body.

Many people will have heard the saying "match your horse's hips with your hips and your horses shoulders with your shoulders". Or the other well worn (and largely ignored) saying "when you turn put your inside leg on the girth and outside leg behind the girth". What both those maxims are actually saying, put another way, is advance your inside seatbone in order to make a turn. Turning does not come from your legs or your upper body. It comes from your seat.

If an instructor doesn't know basics such as this its time to find one that does. JMHO of course. :D
 
I think that you need to change! Its seems like you don't really believe the advice or critique that he has given you (I dont mean this in a nasty way) and neither do we! I think he is probaby used to teaching a more advanced rider and maybe move to another RI and go back to him later when you've mastered the basics of the exercises he's giving. If you've tried telling him how you feel and it hasn't helped you out, I don't think there are many other options! good luck :)
 
He looks like he has ended up a little confused by the exercise, tried to get all his feet between 2 poles, picked up his off hind but put it back down without bringing it over the pole (pic 5 - 6), stopped going forward and had a little panic. I would say he felt a little cramped for space - there's only so many legs a boy can fit between those poles lol.
Can't see that you are doing anything other than what your instructor told you too & TBH I think most horses would struggle with that exercise for the 1st time if they are not used to that type of thing. Reins are there for a reason, don't beat youself up over this, try a different instructor if you feel that this one is not working for you.
 
This answer only applies if you are riding 'English' and not 'Western' as it is difficult to tell from the pics.

You have not pulled on the reins. You have let the horse escape through the right shoulder. You have in effect, opened the side door.

You need more rein, not less. And more inside leg. More outside rein to control the bend but 'guard' the escape route through the right shoulder by keeping that rein taught and towards your belly button if you feel your horse veering off that way.
 
Looking at the pics, your horse has done exactly what your body has asked him to do. You have turned your body to the right, advanced the left hand and opened the right, encouraging him to bend right and jump out of the exercise.
 
Wagtail said:
Looking at the pics, your horse has done exactly what your body has asked him to do. You have turned your body to the right, advanced the left hand and opened the right, encouraging him to bend right and jump out of the exercise.
Click to expand...

Yep, he usually do what I ask :3 (and at the last pictures you see I'm petting him for it too, I'm not blaming him for missing the point when I don't even get it myself.. :3)
And still I was told I didn't turn my body enough, confusing!

I'll try to force my regular instructor to give me more lessons.. I like her but she's always so busy! ><
 
For whoever might be interested. A video from last summer with the other instructor.. not really any special though. We're trying to learn the trot and stop him from rushing in it (I think you can see at a few spots at least how he slows it down without really slowing it down) and also trying to get a canter cue.

With all the gaits he has my main focus has been to separate them from each other and give them separate cues. At that point he barely know to trot under saddle (and I have forgotten how to post xD) and we still have some issues with canter. But we're coming to a point where I have the gaits separated and I know how to engage him in the gaits. The trot has really improved, but my posting still needs work.

I've worked the walk with shoulder ins, leg yields and stuff, but tolt and trot has this far just been when hacking or on a wide circle, working to first of al get the right gait, and then mainly moving in and out on the circle and things like that. I don't have access to any arena or paddock and most of the year I only have the roads. :/ One of the reasons to try this western trainer - to be able to school him better when it's too wet to ride on the fields or so..

I do see mistakes in the film, but at least this instructor points them out and so.. I just wish she wasn't so busy all the time. Oh well, right now I can still practice on the field. And I am working on the figures..

Anyway, here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ailO39SPEJE
 
I honestly can't really say, because you're riding western rather than english!

But I would point out that you do seem to be steering with the reins (pulling on the inside one) rather than leg and seat, and that your hands (in english anyway) should always be level and fairly close together, and that steering should come more from the seat, and using both reins to balance the horse in order to perform a smooth turn. However, I think here that the horse simply misunderstood what you were asking. Did the instructor say exactly what this exercise is meant to achieve?
 
I don't understand what the objective is here, I assume because this is western.

From a 'conventional' point of view you look too unbalanced, which is stopping the horse from moving fluidly. You would want to shift weight to the inside to get the horse to move but instead you seem to throw weight into the outside stirrup, and then when the horse moves you shift fairly suddenly to tip forwards. This unbalances him in the last picture.

In the video, he just looks very confused, especially with tolt and trot, I assume you don't want to do any dressage or more 'conventional' riding with him. From that video, I would say the he is quite stressed & not understanding what you are doing. If his trot is still so unbalanced and on the forehand, I would be working on that rather than figures where he has to be coordinated and calm.
 
Charliepony: it's western. :)

siennamum: In the video we're working on first and foremost GETTING the right gait at all.. getting a trot rather than anything else, and getting a canter/gallop. The canter/gallop is first asked for in the tolt since that's what he's best at and where he finds it more easy. We're also working on his rushing in the trot there. He's not slowing down but if you look carefully you will see that at several parts of the video he calms down and trots more evenly.

Don't assume too much, I'm training academic dressage. But before we could work on having him nice and collected in all gaits, we have to get him into the gaits.. It's not like regular horses where you'll get trot just by asking for more speed, and then you can work on getting a good trot. This horse didn't want to trot at all for a long time, so I schooled his gait (tolt) in the meantime untill I found a way to get a trot. Since that wasn't the focus on the lesson, his tolt isn't the best there either - it was just a middle gait to get the canter. Once he got that we could work on getting a nice tolt and a nice canter from that.

Now he'll take the trot cue and start off in a calm, slow balanced trot rather than the half-racer trot in the video (which is still better than the full racer trot he started out with before that ;) )

And at this point I'm still not doing any figures in trot (except the regular circle), I'm doing them in walk. The photos was also in a walk. You have to walk before you can trot..

His stressing is the main issue. All I'm doing is asking him to trot around and he gets worked up and thinks I'm asking for something impossible.. but in this video his stresslevels are really low compared to normal when working on new things. In the fast tolt and canter he's stressed, but the trot isn't stressed. Rushy at a few bits but the rest is just his natural movements, huge fast strides.
 
siennamum said:
I don't understand what the objective is here, I assume because this is western.

From a 'conventional' point of view you look too unbalanced, which is stopping the horse from moving fluidly. You would want to shift weight to the inside to get the horse to move but instead you seem to throw weight into the outside stirrup, and then when the horse moves you shift fairly suddenly to tip forwards. This unbalances him in the last picture.
Click to expand...

That's what I figured too and why I'm hesitant to continue riding for the western rider. That's what I got instructed to to - ''turn more'' instead of ''stop dropping the shoulder'' (hich would have put my balance back on the outside leg). I'm also told to lean forward before all obstacles on the ground.. not just a bit but really do it..
 
He doesn't look like the easiest horse to ride, so well done with your progress so far!

I don't know anything about Western, but in the video where you seem to me to be riding 'conventional', he is rushing, falling out of his left shoulder and his circles are very uneven. Try to stray on the same size circle, you need more contact to do this and you need to use the outside rein to control those falling shoulders. Also the horse needs to bend round your inside leg (inside leg to outside hand) rather than 'breaking' at the shoulder. Might also be worth trying decreasing the circle and then leg yielding out but only one or two strides at a time, then re-balance on the new circle, then push out again.
 
Ok, let's just clearify: Pictures: Western. Movie: academic dressage :)

For comparision I'll see if I can fix a more ecent video.. filmed today but he was in an awful mood.. anyways..
 
A video from today.
We still have a whole lot to learn, but I hope there is some improvement at least.

He was not happy today.. started just when I got up, throwing his head, backing, turning, skipping.. not a happy boy.. I'm not really sure why, he's usually happy to work.

To my defence, the jacket make my seat look much worse than it is. >_> Yes, I fall forward at times and stuff but not constantly.. should've taken it off.
I keep loosing my balance as soon as he start to trot, it's very discouraging! :mad: For the both of us. But I just have to learn.
I know his headset is way high, we've just lately started to get him down-forward rather than tucked in, but today was not the day for that with his mood, so I more or less let him keep the head where he wanted as long as he listened. Just one of all the things we still need to work with. :3 There's a bit of gait/''tölt'' in there too.
Well.. as said.. far from perfect and lots to improve.. I see I've started to tend to a chairseat too, need to remind myself of that.. But I feeel improvement at least. :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V_GcxVEDbU
 
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