Puppy training/socialising what to do?

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palo1

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So I have had my lovely Irish terrier pup just over a month, he is now 13&1/2 weeks, he has had the necessary jabs and has been enjoying life both at home and out and about as is safe and appropriate. I have taken him to as many places as I have had time for and seen as many things as we can. He is fantastic with a good recall instilled, a fairly reliable sit, he gets on famously with my older dog and is calm and very sensible with our sheep and horses (not so our bantams - that is a work in progress!). I have him recall trained to the whistle. I was planning to take him to a local puppy training class to continue the socialising etc but it turns out that of a course of 6 classes I will miss 3 due to family hols. We live sort of miles from any other puppy training opportunities (over an hour's travel) but the one I would have travelled for is fully booked. Not sure how to proceed now as I don't want to waste money on a course of classes where I will miss 50%, I am quite ambivalent about the set-up there in any case though it is a good standard sort of thing I think and I am wondering if I should just carry on with training and socialising on my own. I regularly take my lad for a play date with a friend with 4 whippets too so he is getting exposed to other dogs etc.

Longer term I do want him to be the sort of dog that I can take to the beach/woods/river etc and I am aware that the Irish temperament can be quite full on with other dogs so the more I do whilst he is little, the easier it may become. On the other hand, we live very rurally and rarely naturally meet any other dogs - certainly not on a daily basis. I suspect that whilst he is very sweet now, any social problems will probably be seen when he reaches sexual maturity.

So, with no puppy classes readily available but with an awareness that I need to create a reasonable, sociable adult what should I do??
 
I too live rurally and if I didn't go anything my dog would see few people or other dogs. I take mine into supermarket car parks and walk him in there. Lots of diversions for him to walk around. I also park in the middle of our small market town and have lunch in the car so he has to watch countless dogs and people walking very close to his vehicle. Then I walk him on a lead around the market place, through a pavement cafe, that sort of thing. I have taken mine and waited outside the secondary school as all the pupils walk out past us. I have sat outside at the cafe and had lunch with lots of dogs walking past.
Our pavement cafe is my favourite haunt. My GSD is good with other dogs and walks through the middle of the outside cafe ignoring all the dogs. The dogs he passes go wild. We turn round at the other end and march back again just when the dogs have all settled down. He continues to ignore. I have found all these are good training opportunities and put the dog in the real world rather than a training class.
 
Personally speaking, for me socialising is about ignoring other dogs. As you have noted, all of the Irish terrier breeds can be feisty, so for me I'd make *you* the centre of his world, through food or a ball or whatever he loves, it all comes through paying attention and engaging with you. You are the route to and the provider of all good things.
Training and day-care set-ups which allow dogs to tear-arse all over the place with each other are not for me, I'm afraid (you don't mention what sort of class it is, so apologies if this is not the case). It just makes other dogs the big attraction when the owner should be the biggest attraction of all. Even classes where there are lots of dogs in a hall or a field in a circle, in close proximity to one another, being held in place with a treat, is not representative of how dogs will meet (or not) in normal life.
It sounds like you are doing a good job and if you can have careful, controlled access to other dogs in the form of your friend's whippets, then that will be just as good as a class, IMO, where you can't control what other people do or how they let their dogs interact with yours. One bad experience can be all it takes at this age.

As you have also identified, you'll know what sort of dog you have when he hits 18-24 months - genetics will always over-ride training, no one has ever been able to convince me of anything otherwise! But with good foundations in place, you should have nothing to worry about.
 
paddy555 said:
I too live rurally and if I didn't go anything my dog would see few people or other dogs. I take mine into supermarket car parks and walk him in there. Lots of diversions for him to walk around. I also park in the middle of our small market town and have lunch in the car so he has to watch countless dogs and people walking very close to his vehicle. Then I walk him on a lead around the market place, through a pavement cafe, that sort of thing. I have taken mine and waited outside the secondary school as all the pupils walk out past us. I have sat outside at the cafe and had lunch with lots of dogs walking past.
Our pavement cafe is my favourite haunt. My GSD is good with other dogs and walks through the middle of the outside cafe ignoring all the dogs. The dogs he passes go wild. We turn round at the other end and march back again just when the dogs have all settled down. He continues to ignore. I have found all these are good training opportunities and put the dog in the real world rather than a training class.
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This is great thanks - exactly what I have been busy doing too! It is great fun as I have forced myself to visit the local pavement café and drink coffee/eat cake in the name of canine education! I wouldn't usually make the time for that but hey ho, needs must... He goes to school in the car every day to meet my 2 children, their friends and anything else that walks up the lane and I try to make sure that he gets to see as much as possible at this point.
 
palo1 said:
as I have forced myself to visit the local pavement café and drink coffee/eat cake in the name of canine education! I wouldn't usually make the time for that but hey ho, needs must...
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yes life is a real b*gger when you have to visit the cafe isn't it and force that cake down :eek: but these are the things we unfortunately have to do to train our pooches. :D
 
CorvusCorax said:
Personally speaking, for me socialising is about ignoring other dogs. As you have noted, all of the Irish terrier breeds can be feisty, so for me I'd make *you* the centre of his world, through food or a ball or whatever he loves, it all comes through paying attention and engaging with you. You are the route to and the provider of all good things.
Training and day-care set-ups which allow dogs to tear-arse all over the place with each other are not for me, I'm afraid (you don't mention what sort of class it is, so apologies if this is not the case). It just makes other dogs the big attraction when the owner should be the biggest attraction of all. Even classes where there are lots of dogs in a hall or a field in a circle, in close proximity to one another, being held in place with a treat, is not representative of how dogs will meet (or not) in normal life.
It sounds like you are doing a good job and if you can have careful, controlled access to other dogs in the form of your friend's whippets, then that will be just as good as a class, IMO, where you can't control what other people do or how they let their dogs interact with yours. One bad experience can be all it takes at this age.

As you have also identified, you'll know what sort of dog you have when he hits 18-24 months - genetics will always over-ride training, no one has ever been able to convince me of anything otherwise! But with good foundations in place, you should have nothing to worry about.
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Thanks for this: I quite agree!! I actually DON'T want my dogs to see other dogs as wildly exciting to be honest - there is no value whatsoever in that to me in my current lifestyle, apart from the fact that I am aware that with this particular breed what starts out as 'very excited to meet you/play with you' could become 'unfortunate/dominant/aggressive' as he gets older. He just needs to learn to listen to me - which he does very nicely at the moment, although there are definitely some emergent independent terrier moments coming through...

One reason for my ambivalence about the puppy classes is the fact that I have been told that at the end of the class the 6-8 involved puppies are allowed to 'play' (nicely). I would probably choose to leave just prior to that in all honesty as I have seen what can happen in this situation and my little chap has a fabulous, safe and well adjusted play mate at home so 'play' with a bunch of strangers is not really needed or helpful. That would make the classes even less value if you see what I mean. It sounds as if carrying on myself and making the most of all the safe and sensible opportunities I get will be a good way forward. It may be that I get some decent 1-1 training just at the point where Red needs a more expert input. In the meantime, ham/chicken/liver will be our training mates!! I am so enjoying him and hoping not to jinx us here, he is so much more responsive and 'easier' than I was anticipating though there is a very long way to go yet. Unlike previous dogs, this one has been loose and with me a great deal right from day one as I have been aware of the challenge of terrier recall! So far, the whistle evokes a hilarious, instant racing to me: it's a total revelation...
 
Just go and do the class, accept you will miss some, but accept that three weeks is three weeks more seeing ohter dogs/people/learning to interact with you when there are lots fo distractions. especially for a terrier breed!
 
palo1 said:
One reason for my ambivalence about the puppy classes is the fact that I have been told that at the end of the class the 6-8 involved puppies are allowed to 'play' (nicely). I would probably choose to leave just prior to that in all honesty as I have seen what can happen in this situation and my little chap has a fabulous, safe and well adjusted play mate at home so 'play' with a bunch of strangers is not really needed or helpful. That would make the classes even less value if you see what I mean. It sounds as if carrying on myself and making the most of all the safe and sensible opportunities I get will be a good way forward. It may be that I get some decent 1-1 training just at the point where Red needs a more expert input. In the meantime, ham/chicken/liver will be our training mates!! I am so enjoying him and hoping not to jinx us here, he is so much more responsive and 'easier' than I was anticipating though there is a very long way to go yet. Unlike previous dogs, this one has been loose and with me a great deal right from day one as I have been aware of the challenge of terrier recall! So far, the whistle evokes a hilarious, instant racing to me: it's a total revelation...
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To be honest, I use the dog's daily food allowance, tip that into my pocket and the dog works for his food every day by paying attention to me, that way when you hit a big problem you can break out the big guns like ham, chicken and liver. When the pup is little, obviously, I feed would feed quite large amounts in short sessions so that he has enough food to grow and then adjust accordingly as he gets bigger and stronger.
I totally agree with your reservations as regards completely undoing any good work in a class setting, by then letting the dog run around with all the dogs you were teaching him to ignore a short time earlier. It's a total human way of looking at dog behaviour.
I'm currently trying to undo a temporary fixation with smaller dogs which was caused by *one* incident of letting my (normally super controlled) dog have a lovely run around with a Staffy last week. It's very easy for Something to become A Thing.
 
That is good advice about the food allowance. I will also find that a bit easier as he is currently on a dry food, as it will stop me wandering off to work forgetting that I have bits of meat in my pocket!! I am sort of finding it quite hard to 'do' training as pup is almost always by my side at the moment. I can practice recall when we are mooching in the fields as he gets far enough away for it to make sense and 'sit' is an easy one. Generally though, once I have called him back to me once or twice he will just trot along beside me: it's not quite what I imagined having a 13 week old terrier would be like! I have manufactured some really fun recall sessions though, using my children to distract him whilst I creep off till I am far enough away....I haven't cracked any kind of 'stay' yet. We are currently playing some really fun hide and seek. I deffo take your word though on not allowing 'something' to become 'A Thing'! :)
 
'Stay' is easier if you have a mat or a bed or something so you can teach him a 'place' command. With my older dogs I used three floor tiles, which I could move around, and they were not allowed to move beyond those confines, some people use a square made of plastic pipes and joins, which is also portable and can be place anywhere, and can be phased out. Don't forget to teach him that it's OK to be on his own, as well ;)
 
Yes, teaching him to be alone is more tricky - he lives with my older dog and is with us when we are at home. I have got it on my radar though. He is very happy in his crate which is a start and I suppose I could use his vetbed as a place 'marker'...food for thought!
 
I took my BT to a puppy class mainly because it was a long time since I'd had a pup and also because we don't meet many dogs unless we go to the playing fields, then you meet loads. We didn't do big plays in the classes and I found it helpful. Stan did go through a spell of being very attracted to playing with other dogs but we got through that very easily using a long line. He's just 2years and is pretty good with other dogs, seems able to read them quite well and has good recall. He knows he can't say hello to another dog without permission so I can always get him back to put a lead on him if I see a dog on a lead coming towards us. On balance if you don't meet many dogs, I'd probably go to the classes I can get to. Good luck. I regularly meet an Irish terrier bitch and Stan loves to play with her.
 
I live in a very rural place with no decent training classes so I do much the same as paddy. I drive into town or the local park and let my pup see the sights or walk to heel ignoring people and other dogs.
When I lived in Herts, I did belong to a really good obedience training club where the first class was for puppies. There was no playing mayhem, the pups did a baby version of adult training, walking to heel, sitting, weaving in and out of the other pups, little puppy recalls. We also stood in a circle and two pups would be allowed loose to meet each other, sniff or even play for a moment and then we called them out to us. This is all far removed from some puppy socialisation classes where they are all let off to play.
You need to know exactly what happens, otherwise you are better off doing your own thing.
 
I think training classes can be really useful for a puppy but puppy training classes can be really hit and miss! A free for all play session can be really counter productive but unfortunately the majority of puppy owners seem to come to puppy classes just for the free for all play "socialisation" so it is often offered even though it's not ideal. I think in your situation I would just do my own thing!
 
A dog/human/car/bike/anything else 'neutral' dog is what I aim for. The dog is accepting of whatever, they are not scared of it nor do they wish to roll over and die for it.

The open play session with 6+ pups is something I would personally avoid. A one on one with a dog of similar size and temperament would be fine though......assuming that one, at least, of the owners is au fait with interpreting pup play/body language and will call a halt when things get OTT.

Just keep continually exposing the pup to all sights and sounds. Make yourself the centre of his/her universe and you won't go far wrong.
 
Thanks all - much to consider and a variety of options! There is, in fact a bit of time for me to think about things as Red is only 13 weeks old and we are fitting in plenty of sights and sounds. I do feel slightly that anything I might do now whilst he is sweet and pliable might count for nothing when he reaches full 'Irish' maturity!! Thank goodness that he doesn't 'have' to mix pleasantly with many other dogs on a regular basis. I will keep going with what I am doing and try to fit in other sensible, nicely handled dogs as much as I can but will avoid paying out for the particular puppy class that is nearest. In the last 5 weeks, Red has barely taken his attention away from me and I don't particularly want to introduce a situation where that is more likely/inevitable. The longer he learns that I am the best thing, the easier it will be....I hope!! :)
 
We have 2 Rottweilers, a breed which is known to be fear aggressive, under the right (or wrong) circumstances. We started taking them out and about as soon as their inoculations were effective. Their first outing was to Bramham, where there were lots of dogs on leads and plenty of people who wanted to talk to the pups. They thoroughly enjoyed themselves and learned that we pass other dogs without taking any notice of them. They also learned to ignore cars as we walked through the car park.

We have continued to take them out and about, they go out for our lunch on a regular basis and to agricultura shows. They are confident and dog neutral. When they were little, they met family dogs who were older than them, so learned to play considerately and behave themselves when told to do so.

I would NOT want my pup to learn to rampage around with others of the same age in a training class. I don't think you need to take yours to a class, OP, you sound to be doing all the right things without that.
 
I'd avoid puppy play sessions, free for all only teach the dog that it's OK to fly at other dogs with zero restraints. I, like others, want mine to ignore other dogs, which I've mostly managed. They don't go up to other dogs and I have to actively avoid them anyway with Zak.
 
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