putting a dummy on my

[Brambridge04]

baby today. She is 5, has been lunged bitted sat on etc, however broncs and goes nuts till your off when asked to move forward, so trying a dummy!!

Anyone got any expreience of this?

 

[Foxy53]

Used to use a dummy a lot but it appears to have gone out of fashion now. Make sure it is fixed tight and is heavy enough for the horse to notice and the legs are long and well attached - to mimic a rider.

We had a similar experience a year or so ago; lovely horse, easy to handle and happy to be sat on but as soon as you asked for walk on, he bronked like mad. We just took more time, used a dummy a few times so that he would move forward happily and eventually accepted a rider, but as I mentioned, it took more time than usual.

Good luck

 

[Hedgewitch13]

My YO always starts hers off with a 'dummy'. It's a stuffed pair of trousers with weighted wellies attached to the bottom. Always works a treat without any distress to the horses

 

[Brambridge04]

i hope she is ok with it!x

 

[3DE]

I like dummies. They are great for teaching a bronking youngster that the rider doesn't come off Coming of a youngster can be bad for them doing it again on purpose or it can knock their confidence. I have one that has spring hooks on like on lead ropes - you attach the ones on the wellies to the stirrups and then there are two on the front of the trousers that attach to the d-rings of the saddle to stop it bouncing around so much. Once the horse is used to a 'still' dummy I unclip from the d-rings to get the horse used to something that moves about a bit.

 

[Brambridge04]

She is such a sweety to do ANYTHING on the ground with, and i could handle the odd rear or buck, but its the constant broncing that has me off! fingers crossed this goes well, im off in a mo!

 

[Brambridge04]

So i put the dummy on, had probs couple of Lbs banging round her sides, didnt bat eyelid.....had someone sat on her, didnt care, asked to move forward and along came the broncing. really starting to get upset now.

 

[JanetGeorge]

So i put the dummy on, had probs couple of Lbs banging round her sides, didnt bat eyelid.....had someone sat on her, didnt care, asked to move forward and along came the broncing. really starting to get upset now.

Can I refer you again to my posts on your 'is long-reining so important' thread - and my PM.

You aren't doing anything WRONG - but you're going too fast! Remember what I said: backing a horse is about THOUSANDS of tiny building blocks.

Personally I think dummies are as much use as a chocolate teapot - any horse with half a brain KNOWS it's an inaminate object - and therefore can't rip his throat out! But if they make people feel better, that's fine! However, you made a mistake by moving on in one session. Work with the dummy, then put your rider aboard to SIT! Tomorrow, work with the dummy on again and put your rider on and ask for one step forward. The next day ... work with the dummy, put your rider on, and ask for 2 steps! That is how steady you have to take it with a youngster that has a serious fear of the 'predator on my back!' We had one in for backing - a well-bred WB mare - who could cope with 6 steps forward before the tension/fear got SO great she exploded.

The other thing I suspect you're not doing - or not doing well enough - is looking for signs of acceptance/submission before moving on. The horse has to get to a point where he - noticeably - heaves a sigh of relief and says: 'well THAT's ok!'

When working with a backer - particularly a filly - you need every one of your senses tuned in to how the filly is feeling about the process. If there is the teensiest bit of fear/tension, then DON'T move on - take a step back!

 

[3DE]

^ agreed about any sign of tension then back off.

Can I just ask what are you doing when you are asking the horse to move on? What aids are you using? What is your helper doing?

I'm not going to suggest anything yet as I don't know for sure what you are doing, but I think I might know where you are going wrong

As far as moving too quickly - maybe, maybe not. It all depends on what the horse actually understands. A horse that is clear about what you are asking is a lot more biddable than a confused one.

 

[Brambridge04]

Helped normally has lead rope attached to head collar, and i get on then off a couple times, the sit on and say "walk on" now she WILL walk on, trot stand to voice when lunging however when i say it when im on her back she doesnt, if helper leads, she is normally ok, if i use ANY leg at all, even a tiny tiny nudge, she explodes. She doesnt bat an eye lid about me sitting on her, just stands, eats bit of grass, looks about, huffs n puffs a bit when starting to get bored. moves around mounting block perfectly etc. just seems to be when using any leg or asking her to move forward with no leader. x

 

[JanetGeorge]

Helped normally has lead rope attached to head collar, and i get on then off a couple times, the sit on and say "walk on" now she WILL walk on, trot stand to voice when lunging however when i say it when im on her back she doesnt, if helper leads, she is normally ok, if i use ANY leg at all, even a tiny tiny nudge, she explodes. She doesnt bat an eye lid about me sitting on her, just stands, eats bit of grass, looks about, huffs n puffs a bit when starting to get bored. moves around mounting block perfectly etc. just seems to be when using any leg or asking her to move forward with no leader. x

So the leader is giving her 'confidence'. I honestly don't think it's a tiny nudge with your legs that is setting off the bronking. I don't like the bit about her 'getting bored' or eating a bit of grass (if she's picking it herself.) This would suggest you're not keeping her mind on the job.

How much walking do you do with the leader? Are you using your voice aids while being led (you should be - the leader should just be a bit of a lifeline while YOU are in charge.)

How long are you working her in total - in one session? Are you lunging her first each time - with stirrups down - and for how long?

This MIGHT be one where we would send her out on the lunge - rider hanging onto neck strap for grim death! If they can run, they usually won't buck. (It's flight - or fight!) It DOES rely, however, on ground person being reasonably strong and VERY competent - you do NOT want to be charging around the manege with lunge line trailing!!

 

[3DE]

Although I agree with JG about the voice aids I am a firm believer that the rider should strictly only be a passenger for at least a couple of weeks while the horse is getting used to the feel of the rider's weight, balance and movement.

I think you are right about the helper leading thing but I would have the helper just walking at the side for several sessions with the rider only being a passenger. All commands initially should come from the person on the ground - this is what the horse knows. After time, as she becomes used to the person being on board, you can start introducing the person on board asking her by voice. Only when she is completely comfortable would I introduce any leg aids. And even then I wouldn't nudge, or even squeeze, only tense my calves - that is all that is needed.

But then do you even need to ask with you legs initially? I don't... I like my youngsters to be willing to move forwards on their own without kicking on - the leg aid should only indicate a change of pace (which your mare isn't ready for yet). Even when the leg aid is introduced I still only use it to indicate a change, once the change is achieved my leg goes silent again. I like to teach a youngster that leg means move on and continue moving - that way you have a superbly responsive horse right from the start.

Edit - of course you will need leg aids for half halts eventually but we are miles away from this yet

JG is also bang on about lunging and long lining with the stirrups down to get the horse used to things banging on the sides - I find this invaluable.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I think you are right about the helper leading thing but I would have the helper just walking at the side for several sessions with the rider only being a passenger. All commands initially should come from the person on the ground - this is what the horse knows.

I've got to disagree! Horse is used to voice commands - she now has a THING on her back. If THING talks and gives voice aids, that gives confidence to the horse that the THING is something familiar - and not a 'silent but deadly' predator!

The leader can give confidence by being there - but if the leader takes the horse's focus AWAY from the rider - and the rider then moves - even a little - all hell may well break loose (as it has on several occasions.)

Assuming Brambridge04 is doing things more or less 'right' - then this filly may well be one of the - approximately - 1 in 10 who have real issues with the 'predator on back'! If the 'predator' is talking, then she's a familiar human - albeit in the wrong place!

You see this with bicycles (one of THE most frightening bits of traffic to a young horse!) My youngsters normally don't turn a hair at cars, lorries, tractors - but if a bevy of 'silent but deadly' bicycles approach, it's mayem! I now have ALL the local cyclists trained to call out and talk to us when approaching - it makes a huge difference. Talking bicycles are acceptable.

 

[3DE]

Assuming Brambridge04 is doing things more or less 'right' - then this filly may well be one of the - approximately - 1 in 10 who have real issues with the 'predator on back'! If the 'predator' is talking, then she's a familiar human - albeit in the wrong place!

I get what you mean I view it more though that horse doesn't have a clue about what the rider is doing up there and is more likely to panic if the beast aboard suddenly starts gripping (grabbing) it - as is what seems to be happening. Not so much the voice command part...

I guess it's just trial and error until you find what the individual horse is comfortable with - within reason

The predator above things is one that I have had before - was quite a challenge lol. I got around it by building a platform at the front of the stable so every time I went past I was above her. I guess a hooman being above is a scary thing

 

[JanetGeorge]

The predator above things is one that I have had before - was quite a challenge lol. I got around it by building a platform at the front of the stable so every time I went past I was above her. I guess a hooman being above is a scary thing

It is - although with our own youngsters, they're already used to it as we start on day 1 - leaning over them when they're lying down, leading them with a hand on back - or a whole arm draped around the girth area. Whenever I find a foal lying down, I put my leg over it and lean forward to give it a cuddle from above.

You can see how alarmed this yearling colt was at being 'backed'!

 

[Ellies_mum2]

You see this with bicycles (one of THE most frightening bits of traffic to a young horse!) My youngsters normally don't turn a hair at cars, lorries, tractors - but if a bevy of 'silent but deadly' bicycles approach, it's mayem!

Yes, I have found this with my youngster who isn't bothered by a huge Argos lorry going by but is reduced to a wreck by a bicycle. After a while she seemed to get the idea that the bikes were harmless and can be approached by one but is a bit wide eyed when they come from behind still but getting much better






Following these threads with much interest as I'm backing my youngster next year and getting as many tips as I possibly can beforehand

 

[galaxy]

Was your problem with long reining that she also exploded?

I had the very same problem with my old mare. She didn't take to long reining, but lunged brilliantly, so just got on with backing (although took my time). she'd be ok for a few minutes and then totally explode.

so I went back to long reining and did that for a month until she was happy with it. She learnt that exploding didn't get her anywhere, without someone being on her back and falling off. She never did it ridden with a helper next to her, it was only when she was out alone. So I think the long reining by herself broke the cycle.

Is her saddle ok? You did say in a previous post the tree broke?

 

[Dexter]

If shes bronking when asked to move off without the leader then surely you can keep the leader? Once shes happy you can then work on gradually getting the leader to be further and further away. Or get on on the lunge so theres still a 'leader'?

 

[Laafet]

Echo the longreining. But I do have to say I had the same problem with T, I could get on him, be lunged riding him but when we went loose he would go mental...... The cure - think outside of the box - I got a friend and her very sensible Arab to ride and lead me on a slip rein. It took two short sessions and she just slipped him off rein when I told her he was relaxed. Here is a pic sequence -

 

[Brambridge04]

I got a new saddle as early xmas pressie!

I have a "leader" whenever possible but sometimes its not possible. She is happy with me just sat there, so maybe i will just keep doing that for a few more days

 

[Doormouse]

I too would echo the long reining, you cannot beat it for horses. When I worked in Lambourn I would see Jenny Pitman's youngsters being long reined all round the village, up the gallops, just everywhere to get them used to the outside world and to get them to understand the voice aid and the leg aids because the reins press in much the same place as the leg.
Just sitting on her is not going to help her issue with the legs or teach her to go forward happily, it is simply going to make her bored and then she will be naughty.
Being led off another horse is also an excellent idea, I have done this with youngsters in the past and it has really helped.

 

[Brambridge04]

I cannot get her to long rein even with someone at her head and me behind or vice versa, she just spins and runs off x

 

[galaxy]

I cannot get her to long rein even with someone at her head and me behind or vice versa, she just spins and runs off x

That's exactly what my mare did..... And once I cracked it she was fine to ride....

Which part of the long reining to you get to before she does it? Putting the line behind her or when you actually ask her to move?

I'd persevere. Go into an enclosed arena and hold on. She needs to learn taking off and behaving like that is not acceptable.

 

[Brambridge04]

She lunges in a circle using two lines, its when i actually get behind her she freaks

 

[galaxy]

She lunges in a circle using two lines, its when i actually get behind her she freaks

lol they must be twins!!

I actually got someone else to do the long reining so I could stand in her sight all the time (she was very mummyfied). But I didn't lead her. When she freaked she took out her leader. So stayed close, but not that close!!

Can you change the long reining really gradually. Like eek behind her? So you level with her stomach, but lunging, then level with her bum, but still lunging, then slightly behind her level with her bum, but still lunging and she's still moving around you. Do you know what I mean? Don't change from lunging with 2 lines to "ploughing" instantly. Do it VERY gradually. We're pretty sure the crux of my girls issues was that she was out there by herself and literally had panic attacks. But you never know for sure with horses do you...?

I tried a dummy on her too, and she didn't care.

 

[Brambridge04]

Well its worth another shot!! x

 

[galaxy]

It took at leasr half an hour at least of tantrums before my mare gave up! Luckily the bloke I had holding onto her had long legs so could keep up with her explosions! (he is local to us and is a freelance rider if you need an extra hand)

 

[Brambridge04]

Did you move in the end??

 

[Colleen_Miss_Tom]

Op, have you tried a quieter experienced horse to go infront of her when long reining ?

 

[galaxy]

wasn't me moving (I've been at my yard for years, love it, no plans to ever move!). I was recommending it to someone one here too...