Putting fatalities into prospective

silu

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I assume everybody reading posts on this forum are horse lovers and that is a given that we all deeply regret when any horse is killed or has to be humanely destroyed. Who doesn't know of equines being killed/severely injured during competition at all levels or during the process of training them to compete?
Recent examples of 3 horses being destroyed in Dubai flat racing and 2 horses being destroyed at/after BE events is proof enough that we all take risks competing our horses. Many other horses will also be badly damaged at competitions and destroyed later which never gets reported to the general public.
Indeed we all take risks while hacking on roads...our choice not the horses. I shudder to think how many horses are killed/injured during this non competitive pastime.
While I am all for trying to minimize risk to horses I do feel that The Grand National is getting a worse press than it deserves. I walked the course 3 weeks ago and the course IS very different to when I walked it about 25 years previously. It rode very well in the main during The Topham with very few fallers and no casualties.My own personal view is it might be a good idea to reduce the number of runners and INCREASE the sizes of the fences again to make horse back off them a bit more to hopefully prevent the "cavalry charge" as witnessed this year, however I very much doubt this idea will be implemented...non PC I fear! I also think there is weight to the argument that the modern Thoroughbred is lighter boned to increase it's speed at the expense of it's ability to withstand the rigours, but I am no expert on this matter so will stand corrected, if I am mistaken.
Who can honestly say they haven't witnessed some kind of abuse to horses/ponies? be it through neglect, over feeding, bad riding, bad temper!!!. "he who is without sin......" springs to mind, this abuse however is not witnessed by millions of "experts" on the TV. Many congratulations to Neptune a great horse who thoroughly deserved his day in the limelight having been overshadowed by the likes of Kauto, may he have a long and happy retirement.
 

BBH

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No horse deserves to die in the name of sport and to equate death on the track with death via neglect / abuse is ridiculous IMO.

My Step father rode the GN in 1977 and it was the toughest track he'd ever come across for horse and rider. He went on to become a trainer.

I hate racing.
 

Dab

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No horse deserves to die in the name of sport and to equate death on the track with death via neglect / abuse is ridiculous IMO.

My Step father rode the GN in 1977 and it was the toughest track he'd ever come across for horse and rider. He went on to become a trainer.

I hate racing.

Therefore are you saying that horses that die 'in the name of sport' are more deserving to stay alive than those that die not 'in the name of sport'?
 

Mondy

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No, that is not what BBH is saying.

Neglect is sad, yes, but horses dying because we want to be entertained - and make money - is not justified by other kinds of cruelty.

The justifications for the Grand National are identical to those being thrown around near dog-fighting, bear-baiting and bull fights.
 

BBH

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Therefore are you saying that horses that die 'in the name of sport' are more deserving to stay alive than those that die not 'in the name of sport'?

Not what i'm saying at all.

Thankyou Mondy.
 

Baileyhoss

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TBH I think the bad press the national receives is justified and deserved. I don't think it is appropriate at all to try and down play the risks of racing by comparing it to equine fatalities occuring in eventing or any other competative or non competative activities.

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ Although it's a dramatic sounding name for the site, it's actually just a list of the equine deaths in racing since 2007. Now I have no idea of the numbers for eventing, etc. But I would be happy to bet that they are no where near this.

We all know horse riding and competing has associated risks for the riders and the horses, and we all do our best to minimise those risks. I am no expert on racing by any means, but it seems to me that racing is still primarily led by the financial aspect of the sport rather than the safety and wellbeing of the animals.
 

Miss L Toe

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No horse deserves to die in the name of sport and to equate death on the track with death via neglect / abuse is ridiculous IMO.

My Step father rode the GN in 1977 and it was the toughest track he'd ever come across for horse and rider. He went on to become a trainer.

I hate racing.
We know you hate racing: the GN in 1977 was a hard race, the fences were huge, there were few safety considerations and yet, the fatalities were less. In the 1970's, horse were nothing like as "race fit" as they are nowadays, they were not the same class, ie some were good jumpers, not fast racehorses, so they could plod along for four miles and win. Nowadays the horses are trained scientifically, they are much faster, and it is pretty much a given that they can gallop at a pace for four miles, and jump the fences.
No horse deserves to die, we don't want any horse to die, that is why they are trained for the day, looked after properly, and have all the best of attention, good riders, good feed, good vets, good trainers, good owners.
 

Dab

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No, that is not what BBH is saying.

Neglect is sad, yes, but horses dying because we want to be entertained - and make money - is not justified by other kinds of cruelty.

The justifications for the Grand National are identical to those being thrown around near dog-fighting, bear-baiting and bull fights.

Neglect is sad, horses dying in the National is sad. But we all 'own' horses for our own entertainment - and money is a mute issue as you must therefore condemn anyone who sells a horse for a profit and makes money from it!

Justification is not being made for the deaths in the National, but to say that no horse deserves to 'die in the name of sport' and that it does not equate to a death of a horse through neglect is unreasoned.
 
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Rowreach

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36 horses have died at Aintree in the last 12 years, including 23 on the GN course. I am well aware that horses die all the time and for all sorts of reasons, but this is the one single event where you can be almost 100% positive that some of the starters will not be alive by the end of the race, or will be so badly injured that they will have to be destroyed.

As someone who is pretty knowledgeable about NH racing, I can assure you that I have put my views into pERspective and I do not think the risk of the GN is justifiable.
 

cefyl

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Silu - a well written post, we can choose to agree or disagree with. Regarding the "type" of horse now racing remember Red Rum was bred to race on the flat over 1 mile. He was not a massive horse at all, height or bone wise but exceptionally well balanced. He had a knack for the National fences that few horses will ever match.

Speaking to a friend after the race who has ridden in the GN several times in the late 60's and 70's he thought this year some of the jockeys were on a suicide mission. His comment was that many horses could have been presented better at most fences, too many too often grouping together in a bunch at fences where they could have given themselves more space without loosing racing line advantage. There seemed to be more brought down as opposed to fallen that in previous years (Foinavon excepted) on the re-run, but someone will probably correct me on this one.

I felt desperately sad for the connections of According to Pete, my sympathies to them, yes they knew the risk of NH racing but it does not make it any easier.

I do find it somewhat contradictory though when some people are calling racing in general "cruel" and an "unnecessary loss of equine life" yet these same people will comment on the loss of an event horse with the greatest of sympathy for the owners / riders and see the horse dying doing something it loved!
 

silu

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Apologies for the error in my posting it should read perspective..........my English tutor will be whirling in his grave!:)
 

MagicMelon

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36 horses have died at Aintree in the last 12 years, including 23 on the GN course. I am well aware that horses die all the time and for all sorts of reasons, but this is the one single event where you can be almost 100% positive that some of the starters will not be alive by the end of the race, or will be so badly injured that they will have to be destroyed.

Agree totally. If as many horses were killed at Badminton for example then it'd get banned pretty quick I would imagine. Due to the shear amount of deaths in racing, it isnt even comparable to the number of horse deaths in any other disipline. I dont believe its right to say that horses can be killed at home just going for a hack for example, because the grand national is something which is pushing horses beyond their limits, thats why its so wrong. Its not JUST the GN though, yes a lot of horses die on the racetrack but theres also the huge volume of racers who dont make the grade or who get injured and are PTS every single year. In no other sport does that happen to anywhere near the same degree - if an eventer doesnt make the grade, its usually sold as a happy hacker or RC allrounder for example. Not many racers make it to being rehab'd.
 

Mitchyden

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I totally agree with you silu. I looked into the statistics and far fewer horses were killed when the fences were larger. As you say though, they are never going to make them bigger because of the public outcry. I do not believe it would make much difference making the field smaller though as According to Pete fell when less than half the field was still standing. He was just very unlucky. Having said that when the fences were bigger, the jockeys avoided jumping Becher's on the inside as it was suicidal. Now it's been made easier, they were tending to stay on the inside hence being the cause of the bunching up.
 

Mrs B

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Just a quick observation.

I think some of the arguments over the last x number of threads on this have been rather muddled.

Is it a morality problem? Because the horses do not, as people see it, die for a 'purpose' they approve of (such as raising animals for meat or as a pet), but for 'entertainment', 'business', 'betting' etc

Or is it a cruelty problem? Too much is asked of the horses, they're not running other than through fear, there is a delay before they are destroyed having injured themselves etc.

Personally, I think that horses (like most animals except man) have no concept of 'what if'. They have no foresight. And they don't really care how they die as long as it's swift. It's how they live until that point that bothers them.

I am not against racing or against the GN. I hope hysterical, knee jerk reactions are avoided as they can often be counter-productive; they excuse people from concentrating on the problem in hand and thinking things through properly. I hope everything is assessed to see if lessons can be learned and my own wish would be for less in the field, but that is just my instinct.
 

Navalgem

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http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ Although it's a dramatic sounding name for the site, it's actually just a list of the equine deaths in racing since 2007. Now I have no idea of the numbers for eventing, etc. But I would be happy to bet that they are no where near this.


I'd also bet that % wise it's a similar number of horses. How many horses race compared to eventing. A LOT more.

FWIW I agree totally with silu and I'd go as far to say I think making the fences smaller has made it worse as the horses and riders are inclined to go faster.
 

cptrayes

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Let's put it in perspective, yes.

23 horses have died in 12 years of the Grand National. 40 horses run.

An average BE day has eight sections with 40 in each section.

The equivalent death rate would mean that for every single day of BE competition, all around the country, 15 or 16 horses would die on the cross country.

It would be stopped immediately.

Only in racing is it allowed.
 
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Navalgem

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Let's put it in perspective, yes.

23 horses have died in 12 years of the Grand National. 40 horses run.

An average BE day has eight sections with 40 in each section.

The equivalent death rate would mean that for every single day of BE competition, all around the country, 15 or 16 horses would die on the cross country.

It would be stopped immediately.

Only in racing is it allowed.


I will assume you misinterpreted what I said. You are speaking about one race. I am not. And I assume 'An average BE day' includes into's and prenovices? Hardly Grand National standard. Lets talk the likes of Badminton and Burghley events perhaps, make things more even. I believe it did not used to be uncommon for fatalities to occur at this level. I will concede probably less fatalities than in eventing as I have never seen eventers at any level gallop like they do on a racetrack, but again that's another variable which affects comparison. BUT my point being horses have died and do die in eventing.

Anyway I digress slightly, how many horses race on an average day, how many days per week and how many die is your comparison for 'an average day BE' compared with 'an average day racing'. That's the only reasonable comparison here.

In simple terms: list of horse deaths racing per annum divided by number of horses who have raced x 100 over 1 to give a percentage. Same for how many compete BE divided by those who die x 100 over 1. Percentages will be so small they'll be rendered meaningless. If anyone cares to give me figures I'll even offer to run them through ANOVA (Analysis of variance) and I'd bet the result is insignificant.

I do think changes need to be made to The National, same as they did in evening years ago to reduce numbers of death at the highest level. I also stand by what I said, smaller fences have made the problem worse.
 

Dab

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Let's put it in perspective, yes.

23 horses have died in 12 years of the Grand National. 40 horses run.

An average BE day has eight sections with 40 in each section.

The equivalent death rate would mean that for every single day of BE competition, all around the country, 15 or 16 horses would die on the cross country.

It would be stopped immediately.

Only in racing is it allowed.

To put it into perspective and get an equivalent death rate would you not need to figure in a risk escalation factor - we need an actuary for that one!

But for example;

1. dressage comps pose minimual risk for the horses, no fatalities - low risk factor
2. SJ comps pose's at little more risk for the horses than dressage and there are occasional fatalities - low to low medium risk factor
3. Flat racing maybe (not sure) pose more risk for horses than SJ, and there are a number of fatalities a year - low to medium risk factor
4. XC pose's more risk for the horses than flat racing, and there are a number of fatalities each year - medium risk factor
5. Hurdles...
6. Steeplechase...
7. GN....


etc then do a comparison.


Not trying to muddy the water, just that many have said you can't do a straight comparison....
 

Navalgem

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Let's put it in perspective, yes.

23 horses have died in 12 years of the Grand National. 40 horses run.

An average BE day has eight sections with 40 in each section.

The equivalent death rate would mean that for every single day of BE competition, all around the country, 15 or 16 horses would die on the cross country.

It would be stopped immediately.

Only in racing is it allowed.


taken from wiki: Modern steeplechase races have an average of six horse deaths per 1,000 horses taking part;[68] deaths in the Grand National are higher than the average steeplechase, with six deaths per 439 horses between 2000 and 2010.

also from wiki: Information about horse fatalities is difficult to locate, but at least 19 eventing horses, many of them top-level performers, died in 2007 & 2008, most of them in the US.

So at least 19 horses died in eventing in 2 years. Remind me again how many compete?

I also think your total for grand national deaths since 2000 is incorrect. I believe it is 11 but will happily stand corrected. Can you show me where you got your statistic please?
 
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cptrayes

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The previous post.

I'm not talking about NH racing, I'm talking about year after year after year deaths in the Grand National. If it was any other sport involving horses, it would be stopped.
 

cptrayes

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So at least 19 horses died in eventing in 2 years. Remind me again how many compete?

About 7,000 last time I looked. How does that compare with deaths per 1,000 in NH racing?

And lets stick to British horse deaths, shall we. Nowhere near 19.
 
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Navalgem

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About 7,000 last time I looked. How does that compare with deaths per 1,000 in NH racing?

The figures are insignificant as I suspected. six deaths per 1000 is not a huge amount. 0.6%. Hardly a death trap.

As wiki says its difficult to locate info on horse fatalities, I'll see what I can find for you.

Have you found the link to the 23 horses that have died in the grand national since 2000?

BTW, statistically 69 horses have died in 150 years of the National. If there were 40 runners on average (which week now there hasnt always been as one year 66 ran!) thats a percent death rate of 1.15. 11 deaths since 2000 of an average of 40 runners is 2.3%, so have these so called safety measures worked? No!
 
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bubbilygum

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I am a big fan of racing, both National Hunt and Flat, and I was particularly surprised at how truly abhorrent I found this years Grand National. The death of According to Pete was just awful. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot support this race until some drastic changes are made. I find the argument that the Grand National isn't cruel because the horses are so well looked after completely laughable, it is total nonsense to think that is an acceptable excuse. Equally, I don't understand how owners, particularly owners of homebred animals which are considered to be part of the family, can send their horses out onto the National course with the phrase "we just want him to come back safely..."; how can it be worth the risk? 5% of the horses which ran this year had to be destroyed. I suppose it is hard for owners to argue with trainers who will continuously tell them how talented their horse.

If you can support the Grand National as it is, then I don't think badly of you, but I personally cannot bear it any longer. It is damaging to the National Hunt on the whole, it isn't a good example of a national hunt race and it makes many members of the general public assume that all horse racing is dangerous and cruel which is simply untrue. The BHA needs to make changes to the Grand National quickly, each year it just gives the barmy folk at Animal Aid more ammunition against this great sport. I would like to see stiffer, more narrow fences, a smaller field, and ground no better that good to soft, but we will see - if the fences are made smaller again I will truly despair!
 

Navalgem

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It is damaging to the National Hunt on the whole, it isn't a good example of a national hunt race and it makes many members of the general public assume that all horse racing is dangerous and cruel which is simply untrue. The BHA needs to make changes to the Grand National quickly, each year it just gives the barmy folk at Animal Aid more ammunition against this great sport. I would like to see stiffer, more narrow fences, a smaller field, and ground no better that good to soft, but we will see - if the fences are made smaller again I will truly despair!

I wholeheartedly agree!
 

Honeylight

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I haven't got statistics to hand, but having watched NH racing for years & years, I'd say more horses died racing over hurdles than over fences. The factor of speed, of "missing" the smaller obstacles, lack of experience & lighter bone being factors.
 

Wishful

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To put it into perspective and get an equivalent death rate would you not need to figure in a risk escalation factor - we need an actuary for that one!

But for example;

1. dressage comps pose minimual risk for the horses, no fatalities - low risk factor
2. SJ comps pose's at little more risk for the horses than dressage and there are occasional fatalities - low to low medium risk factor
3. Flat racing maybe (not sure) pose more risk for horses than SJ, and there are a number of fatalities a year - low to medium risk factor
4. XC pose's more risk for the horses than flat racing, and there are a number of fatalities each year - medium risk factor
5. Hurdles...
6. Steeplechase...
7. GN....

etc then do a comparison.


Not trying to muddy the water, just that many have said you can't do a straight comparison....

Very few horses will die in "public" for SJ and dressage, BUT how many dressage horses are PTS after a long running attempt to get them sound again after DDFT injuries? How many showjumper are PTS after they go lame or have incurable back problems. Suspect the numbers might be surprisingly high. Far more of the deaths eventing and racing are at competitions, so it is easy to create a list. SJ/dressage deaths at the event are vanishingly rare (hence why Hickstead was such a shock). It's far easier to sweep the DDFT injury statistics under the carpet, but if I were a horse I'd choose to die racing than after operations and box rest thanks very much!
 

Dab

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Wishful, you make a good and valid point. There is also the same issue that for every top dressage and sj horse out on the seen, many have broken down trying to get there. No different from racing but they are rarely held to the same standards of welfare!
 

cptrayes

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Far more of the deaths eventing and racing are at competitions ....

I don't believe this is true, especially of racing. There is a very significant number of horses with severe tendon injuries, (probably the commonest example), which are boxed back home after a race to be assessed, (or have injuries where the severity is not apparent until some time has elapsed), which are then put down.

I suspect that these far outnumber the ones that break a leg or neck on the track itself.



ps I can find only one recent horse death in British Eventing on record and that was Spring Along who had a heart attack before the fence. He could have died at any time, as a six year old once did under me on a hack.
 
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