Puzzled by Ginny's Nappiness

[Ambers Echo]

Ginny has started to be very nappy for my daughter Katie. Katie is tiny and not very strong. Ginny will have sticky feet going from halt to walk, walk to trot or trot to canter. No particular trigger.

If I hop on she just doesn't do it at all. She is in front of the leg and very willing. However she is very green. She does not seem to know how to slow once she has started moving and has a tendency to rush. She makes me feel as though she is tense when I first get on her then quite quickly relaxes. But I am not sure why she should be tense? Once she relaxes she has enough balance to transition nicely up and down.

Katie's strategy is to ask nicely, ask firmly, insist. Nicely means a squeeze. Firmly means a kick. Insist means smack with a schooling whip. Always focusing on the release and releasing as soon as possible. Always starting with asking nicely for every transition. When she is nappy, Ginny ignores the squeeze and the kick then bucks or kicks out at the smack. She also ignores or bucks in response to spurs. She can do 3 or 4 transitions in a row that are lovely then her feet get stuck again.

She has been fully checked physically including scoping her for ulcers and regular physio check ups and there appear to be no physical issues. It appears unrelated to her seasons.

My feeing from her is that there is some miscommunication or lack of clarity between her and Katie. That there is some gap in her understanding of basic stop and go aids and that Katie's timing/feel is the issue not her lack of strength. However her RI insists it is straightforward naughtiness and she needs to be much tougher when giving her a smack/kick if she does not go off the leg.

I am not sure I agree but I can't really see why the problem would be so intermittent if it is a miscommunication. If she understands one day why would she not the next? Am I making excuses for her and she's just taking advantage of a less experienced rider? Or is the lack of experience the reason Ginny is confused?

Any thoughts?

TIA x

 

[be positive]

I would never call this naughtiness if the pony is genuinely green then it may well "forget" to listen at times, combine that with an inexperienced child and some tension then you have a slightly confused pony that will tend to switch off, if the answer is to always get tough then you are often reinforcing the behaviour rather than encouraging a positive response.
Keep it simple and if the rider is not always getting the timing right the instructor needs to find a way of getting it better, this may mean going about things in a different way until the pony and rider are more in harmony, getting tough is all very well but if you keep having to get tough it obviously is not working so you find a new route forward, I would be using poles to help, get the pony enjoying her work and ignore some of the less desirable tendencies by diverting them into something else, transitions are obviously useful and essential but a forward thinking willing pony and happy rider is a priority while they are learning.

If you can ride her regularly and bring her on that could help them both but remember the child rider will not be as strong as you so aim to get the aids as clear and simple as possible.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thank-you. That makes sense. I have sometimes used a whip to back up a leg aid if a horse is behind the leg, but this feels different.
I will give Ginny the benfit of the doubt and focus on clarity of communication between the 2 of them. And yes I will ride her myself regularly.

Katie does not want me to ride her as she has a thing about doing everything herself but the other day I insisted she get off and I get on as they were just clearly at an impasse and the more Katie 'got tough' the more Ginny planted and resisted so that was no good at all. We need to find another way forward.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Well that was interesting! I told Katie we were going to focus on clarity & communication today. I reminded her that she has her seat, her weight, her energy levels, her internal rhythm, her eyes (where she is looking), her voice and her focus of attention as well as her hands and legs. And we were going to use ALL her communication skills to let Ginny know what she was expected to do.

She was so much better! A couple of times Ginny reverted to dropping behind the leg and Katie defaulted to giving her a sharp kick (as she has been told to do) and it was clear that Ginny reacted to that with MORE resistance. Well basically she slowed down and kicked out at the kick! So we stopped that and whenever there was a sticky moment Katie just circled her back to where she had got 'stuck' and quietly and clearly asked again.

The key seemed to be setting her up for every transition. So that before Katie asked for canter she would be thinking canter and counting a 3 beat in her mind and feeling rhe rhythm of canter in her body before finally quietly asking with her legs so that by the time she used a leg aid Ginny already knew that she was about to be asked for canter and just popped effortlessly up into it. I can't believe how well it worked. No resistance or tension at all by the end of the session.

Thanks Be Positive for giving me the confidence to go against the 'she's being naughty give her a smack' advice. It has made me wonder how many other 'naughtly' behaviours are borne of sheer confusion?

 

[DabDab]

Ah, that sounds good.... At least you know that this pony will make a very good rider of Katie

Would just add that instead of backing up the leg with a smack, I find that a light but irritating tap tap tap tap...with a long whip more effective if she can manage to do it. It takes the confrontation aspect out of the situation and just makes it rather irritating for her to ignore the request.

 

[be positive]

Thanks Be Positive for giving me the confidence to go against the 'she's being naughty give her a smack' advice. It has made me wonder how many other 'naughtly' behaviours are borne of sheer confusion?
Read more at https://forums-secure.horseandhound...zled-by-Ginny-s-Nappiness#qfq7ZmpmC6e0ESs6.99

Many poorly behaved horses are confused, once you remove pain as the cause, as best you can, I think the next step is to go back to being as simple and clear as you can possibly be, if you ask a question wait for them to answer don't expect to be ignored and ask again before they have had a chance to listen and react, set them up to succeed and make that as easy as possible for them, like people they learn far better from getting right and being rewarded than being punished for getting something wrong, if they never even understood or heard the question they give up trying.
Well done for listening to her and getting back on track, your daughter sounds as if she will enjoy riding in a quieter, clearer way and the pony should soon show her appreciation.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Ok things were better for a while focusing on clarity but we have run into more problems! Ginny can be light off the leg and willing and she can also just throw in the towel. There seems little reason/ trigger for it. She can do a lovely responsive obedient test at a new venue and plant/nap practicing a test at home or vice versa. Same with jumping. Last time we went to Eland she jumped a straightforward, no fuss clear round and was nicely off the leg. Yesterday she planted at fence 3 and would not move. Literally! I really feel for my daughter who is trying so hard but getting very little co-operation at the moment despite trying to ride as sympathetically as possible.

To add she is 6 and we have had her 10 months or so. She has competed about once a month - so not excessive really. We ride 3-4 times a week - a variety of schooling, SJ, XC and hacking. She arrived poor, unfit with girth galls and an ulcerated mouth from neglected teeth, totally un-muscled and tight but very willing under saddle and is now healthy and fit with much better muscle tone and no longer tight, and she is increasingly UNwilling under saddle! But only intermittently so I don't think pain is the answer. She can fly one day and just flat out say no the next.

Any ideas?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Ok she is fine again now! Flew round arena eventing training away from home last night.

I am beginning to think seasons..... she was definitely in season over the weekend - winking away at Max during the ODE! And thinking back, she was absoluely dine under saddle all winter. Defensive in her stable but lovely to ride.

Any thoughts on Chaste tree berry? Oestress is 4 times the price but Chaste tree berry seems the main active ingredient so should I try her on that? Anyone have any success or otherwise with supplements for mares who struggle with their seasons?

 

[DirectorFury]

Regumate is the only thing that really works for mine and she's still a massive pig for her first and last seasons of the year. Bit like her owner really!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Had a lesson last night and instructor feels she is 'not right' behind. So going for more vet investigations. I want her referred for a proper work up now. This has just gone on too long..... I am not conviced it is linked to seasons - it's is intermittent but not in a regular pattern linked to seasons. She was 5 star vetted 10 months ago and has had umpteen other check ups and I keep being told she is just grumpy or a moody mare. But to my mind she has never seemed quite right so I am glad another instructor is seeing something too..... I'd rather a probem to fix than not-quite-rightness that is just dismissed. Vet and RI have said work as normal in the meantime - including jumping. We shall see....

 

[iknowmyvalue]

Had a lesson last night and instructor feels she is 'not right' behind. So going for more vet investigations. I want her referred for a proper work up now. This has just gone on too long..... I am not conviced it is linked to seasons - it's is intermittent but not in a regular pattern linked to seasons. She was 5 star vetted 10 months ago and has had umpteen other check ups and I keep being told she is just grumpy or a moody mare. But to my mind she has never seemed quite right so I am glad another instructor is seeing something too..... I'd rather a probem to fix than not-quite-rightness that is just dismissed. Vet and RI have said work as normal in the meantime - including jumping. We shall see....

Fingers crossed that the vet investigations find a fixable answer for you! In case they don't find anything, I'd definitely still think about asking them about a regumate trial. Rosie was quite similar, she didn't really plant or stop, but she was intermittently (and not associated with seasons) very difficult, resistant and generally a bit of a cow to ride! It was very much a case of, well if we aren't going to do what I want to do the way I want to do it, then we aren't doing anything thank you! Did do some vet investigations, which found absolutely nothing (which we expected, as on the same day she'd be perfectly happy doing something hard that she wanted to do, but wouldn't do something easy, like walk around the arena, without having a hissy fit). Had her ovaries scanned, which was clear, but still wanted to try her on regumate. She was like a different horse. Still quirky and opinionated, but much easier to convince her that she did want to cooperate with you! Worth a shot maybe?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks IKMV - That's really interesting. Vet is coming on Monday afternoon so I shall see what he thinks. Vet and RI know each other well and Ginny's physio is really clued up and keen to get to the bottom of things too. So they are all talking to each other about what they have seen/felt which I hope clarifies things rather than just muddies the water.

There is also the fact that when we first got her she was EXTREMELY defensive and head shy. Bit and kicked when unrestrained in her stable though never once the head collar was on. To the extent of lunging at people over the stable door. I don't know if that is related but that has now completely resolved. Today I had given her some feed and realised I had forgotten an ingredient so I went in to her stable just after she had started eating and added a scoop while she was munching. I never even thought twice about it. What a difference!! So I have not even mentioned her biting to the vet - the frustrating thing is the napping started pretty much as the biting stopped. But I can't see how they can be linked....
Unless the biting was fear related and her early compliance was also fear related and now she is relaxed enpough around us to tell us to eff off if something hurts? God if only they could talk!!

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA she was foot perfect at the viewing. Beautifully forward and off the leg. It was only wnen she arrived a few days later that we discovered she had an ulcerated mouth from sharp teeth. She also had girth galls. So this is a pony who complied despite obvious pain so maybe there is something about feeling able to express herself now?

Do horses who are treated a bit more hrashly often behave better? I honestly have no idea but I see kids on the yard absolutely hammering their ponies who just never stop trying for them. And pampered divas like mine who throw strops all the time!!

 

[Bob notacob]

Ah, that sounds good.... At least you know that this pony will make a very good rider of Katie

Would just add that instead of backing up the leg with a smack, I find that a light but irritating tap tap tap tap...with a long whip more effective if she can manage to do it. It takes the confrontation aspect out of the situation and just makes it rather irritating for her to ignore the request.

Sometimes on this forum you encounter an entirely new perspective on an age old problem . Thank you.Am going to irritate the hell out of Bob .I pondered on this very question today .The short hard smack from a racing whip or the tap tap of a schooling whip .Bob does not and never has had the use of a whip ,he simply does not understand violence. So I am going to irritate the hell out of him .

 

[Ambers Echo]

Well a frustratingly inconclusive vet visit! He said (and RI actually also said) that if it weren't for the stroppy behaviour the degree of 'not-quite-rightness' was so minimal that he would tell me to not worry about it. But there are some signs that MIGHT suggest pain in her back and/or SI joint. But it was so minimal that if she was happy in her work he would tell us to crack on. But her behaviour suggests a horse who is not entirely happy which makes her subtle pain signals more suspicious. He suspects she has some pain somewhere but is making a bit of a meal of it. A bone scan is really the only way to know. But there is the significant risk that nothing is found and so the insurance would not pay out. She does not protest when I ride her. She moves off my leg nicely. But Katie's timing, feel and leg strength aren't as good. When she is ridden with clarity and focus she is much better but there is no doubt that she reacts negatively to the leg too and is reluctant to move off the leg. But not all the time. Sometimes she flies. And sometimes she throws the toys out the pram completely and plants. It is intermittent but having kept a diary for a while it does not seem linked to seasons.

We are doing a 10 day bute trial to see if that makes a difference to her attitude when ridden. If there is a real improvement then at least we will know she is an honest pony reacting to pain! But if she does not change on bute I have a really tricky decision to make about how much (more) money to throw at this. Still also considering Regumate trial too.

An added complication is that the vet suspects the insurance clock started ticking many months ago when I scoped her even though nothing was found on the scope because the insurers will say the behaviour that led me to scope her was the first sign of the problem she is now being investigated for. So just turning away is not an option as I'll get timed out if she needs investigations and treatment after being turned away. I am seriously considering ditching insurance altogether - they stop you doing what might be in the best interests of the pony and send you down an investigations route very quickly. Wait and see and THEN investigate and treat is just not an option. I am sure extended field rest cures multiple ills but is disincentivised by the rules.

Any advice?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I had a very erratic mare, it took me years to work out what was causing her problems, which seemed to be many and varied, with no apparent link to anything. Several inconclusive vet visits later, her behaviour deteriorated to the point that I was seriously considering pts, aged 12, because she was rapidly becoming unhandleable, she had already been a field ornament for a couple of years, by this time. Despite the difficulties she was actually a very sweet-natured mare but she reacted badly to touch and to sounds, at times.

In the middle of winter (!) I cut out all hard feed, in an attempt to stop her coughing. Her behaviour became very strange for about 3 days, she was like a junkie going cold turkey, hiding in the back of her box, not wanting to go out, even when her stable mate (next door) went. Then she became a normal horse again! It transpired that she was reacting severely to cereals and refined sugars in her feed (this was over 30 yrs ago), we hadn't picked it up because although we didn't give her hard feed in summer, we had given polo mints as treats and she was always in fields with footpaths either round the edge or through them and passerby fed the horses all the time.

Your horse's history rang a bell because mine had been bought back by her breeder, who then sold her on to me, because she had been neglected and had been kept very short of food (she would never push another horse out of the way). The breeder, who couldn't keep her for health reasons, had fed her up quickly over about 4 months, on lots of sugary starchy feed.

The mare was terribly defensive in the stable when I first got her, in the March, we had to bring her in to food, rather than risking taking a bucket in to her. We got over that by standing at the other side of a metal grille, while she ate her hay and hard feed. She learned to trust us round feed and by the next winter was fine in the stable, she got so that she would give us hay from her manger.

So that is a long-winded way of asking what she is eating. Could her behaviour be related to feed in any way?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Maybe? She was on nothing when we got her. but she was underweight and malnourished. (She was eating large amounts of mud suggesting she was lacking several things). And she was girthy, dull eyed, dull coated. So we put her on Pink Mash and Afla A molasses free with a mineral salt lick. She looks great on it - not girthy, bright eyed, soft shine to her coat. She was fed with us from day 1 but only started napping/protesting under saddle 3-4 months later. Can intolerances build up over time?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Maybe? She was on nothing when we got her. but she was underweight and malnourished. (She was eating large amounts of mud suggesting she was lacking several things). And she was girthy, dull eyed, dull coated. So we put her on Pink Mash and Afla A molasses free with a mineral salt lick. She looks great on it - not girthy, bright eyed, soft shine to her coat. She was fed with us from day 1 but only started napping/protesting under saddle 3-4 months later. Can intolerances build up over time?

Yes definitely! And the reaction gets worse and comes more swiftly after the food is ingested the longer it is fed. Mine could only eat alfalfa but if I were you I would take yours off alfalfa immediately, lots of horses, mares especially, react very badly to it. Mine looked fabulous, she was roan but she had a super shiny coat, didn't appear to be dull in any way but now I think she had a headache almost constantly as time went on. She was difficult to girth and rug and although that improved when we stopped the offending feed, she was always a bit wary, if you were on her left, better from the right.

 

[SEL]

I don't think your vet is being particularly helpful re: insurance. You've identified a subtle lameness which needs investigating and that's what they need to document this as. No reference to anything which could be linked to ulcers!

Saying that I would agree that food could be a problem. Soya can be an issue for some mares and there are many horses which pop up on the ulcer forums who improve off alfalfa.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Maybe try a chiropractor vet at this point? They may be able to pick up something that doen't show on a regular lameness workup.

This lady is excellent. She was a highly experienced equine vet in her own right before she added the chiropractor quals to her portfolio.

https://www.equineveterinarywellnessclinic.co.uk/

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Depending on where you are, I can recommend another chiro/vet who also does acupuncture.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don't think your vet is being particularly helpful re: insurance. You've identified a subtle lameness which needs investigating and that's what they need to document this as. No reference to anything which could be linked to ulcers!

Vet said he has had a recent case where an insurance company dug into the history of a horse and discovered reference to behavioural issues. Which Ginny has in her record too as that is why I scoped her - she was not showing physical symptoms. They wrote to him asking if the historical behavioural issues might relate to the current propblem he was investigating and he had to say that it might. So they did not pay! He was just warning me that if they ask him the same question of Ginny his answer would also have to be 'well it is possible'.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yes, you may find that the clock is already ticking insurance wise. But also that they won't pay out on any investigations unless 'something' is found. It's why many of us (me included) have ditched insurance and now self insure instead. Best be prepared for no insurance pay out.

I'd still go the vet chiropractor route at this point. Think she's £85 plus travel, or thereabouts.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes I'm ditching insurance too I think. Total waste of time and stops you just focusing on the pony and what is best for her at this point in time. But I will wait till I decide what I am doing scan wise about Ginny. She is showing a poisitive response to the bute trial so far.

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA the other option would be just to turn her away and see what happens. But again being timed out of any insurance claim makes that unappealing! Insurance sends you down an investigations and treatment route prematurely. Or prevents you asking for professional advice on grey area/just checking it out stuff as the clock starts ticking at that point too. More and more I am discovering that insurance does not mean you can forget about the cost and just act in the best interests of the pony but quite the opposite!

I will wait to see how this episode pans out then I think ditch the insurance for all 3 and save the premium money in a vets account.

 

[Oscar]

I would get a really good mctimmoney chiropractor out to look at her. My horse had niggly issues that slowly got worse, I had vets, pysio, saddler, dentist and vet again and all said nothing wrong!! Finally got a 3rd vet who said he looks misaligned in his pelvis, he'd just finished studying as a chiropractor too as he'd seen such amazing results he wanted to understand it more, I was sceptical but he did a treatment and my horse was 100%better after a day off after treatment. He recommended a chiropractor to me as with his call out, and charges it would be cost prohibitive to use him long term and she now keeps my horse sound.

I hope you can get to the bottom of the problem, I have no advice re insurance, you're screwed either way, with or without ����*♂️

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks for all the advice. I will take things one step at a time so I know what has helped if things change!

I think my vet is fab and certainly is not saying 'nothing is wrong'. Just working out what is the issue.... I am very holistic in my approach to horses (and life) so will consider all avenues. So I may well PM for contact details of people in due course but 1 step at a time. The bute trial should show if there is pain/inflammation. If so then I will look at the options then for identifying/addressing it.

I just really hope that she is being a bit of a diva and there is nothing dreadful wrong. She's only 6....

 

[Ambers Echo]

Well she was re-assessed on Bute and is a different pony. Moving so much better, tracking up well. However she won't pick up left canter lead. She is still napping but the napping is much more obviously behavioural now - near gates, towards mare and foal etc. So our conclusion is that she is in pain for sure and that she also naps sometimes. How much is attributable to which problem is hard to work out. I am confident now that something will be found on the scan so I am booking her in for it. Hope we get answers and a plan.

 

[ycbm]

Well she was re-assessed on Bute and is a different pony. Moving so much better, tracking up well. However she won't pick up left canter lead. She is still napping but the napping is much more obviously behavioural now - near gates, towards mare and foal etc. So our conclusion is that she is in pain for sure and that she also naps sometimes. How much is attributable to which problem is hard to work out. I am confident now that something will be found on the scan so I am booking her in for it. Hope we get answers and a plan.

You can't rule out napping at obvious places as solely behavioural. A really good natured horse which is in pain will often do no more than nap at obvious things, or only misbehave away from home when its tolerance limit gets reached.

 

[Ambers Echo]

You can't rule out napping at obvious places as solely behavioural. A really good natured horse which is in pain will often do no more than nap at obvious things, or only misbehave away from home when its tolerance limit gets reached.

Yes I agree and I also think you see less pain-based napping with a better rider as the horse just puts up with pain knowing it is going to have to work anyway. Which may be why Ginny naps a lot less when schooled by the YO's pro-rider daughter.