Hollyhorse
Well-Known Member
What are the signs and symptons of navicular and what can be done if your horse has it? I know nothing about it but have been told there's a possibility my horse has it. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Many thanks
Question about navicular
- Thread starter Hollyhorse
- Start date
Llwyncwn
Well-Known Member
Really sorry to hear that Holly. A rescue I have taken on has navicular. You will need to have x-rays done to confirm. As far as I am aware it is a degenerative desease, but certain suppliments/drugs can help to give quality of life. They can develop the desease at any age. My vet said that it is more often than not due to concussion to the foot. Im no expert but there are others here on the forum who will be able to offer better advice.
ThomasTank
Well-Known Member
isnt it when the horse sort of tip toes. I remember a horse who had it and was still ridden. keep checking your posts coz someone will have good info for you. they may even send you a link
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I am currently going through this with one of my horses.
Signs and symptoms vary enormously but horses usually present as lame. Navicular is usually seen in both front feet, the horse may present lame in one foot but when that foot is nerve blocked will go lame on the other. Symptoms I noticed in my horse were a deterioration in the quality of his paces, a reluctance to go off drops into water xc, and the occasional stop when jumping on hard ground (he never used to stop at all). His near fore hoof (one he presents lame on) also started to change shape slightly.
Navicular is a contentious disease as it is difficult to diagnose exactly where the problems lie, it tends to be given a more generic name of navicular syndrome, which covers a multitude of lameness possibilities in the navicular region, and is is also misdiagnosed a fair amount.
Your vet will go through a series of nerve blocks to locate the area of pain and rule out other possibilities. They will then xray the area, some navicular horses will show radiographic changes in the navicular bone but not all horses do. A better diagnostic tool is to do an MRI but these are expensive.
The treatments my horse has had are:
remedial shoeing - currently eggbars and equithane but hopefully in the future we will try natural balance and equithane, or possibly rubber shoes.
Tildren - a new drug soon to be licenced in the UK, currently needs to be imported. it is given as an IV infusion over about an hour and is reported to help prevent futher bone loss or even help to rebuild bone.
Shockwave therapy - a course of 4 treatments given 10 days apart
Synequin - a chondroprotective supplement
The next steps would be to give bute if the above fails to work, but if the horse isn't comfortable like this he will be PTS.
Hope that helps
Signs and symptoms vary enormously but horses usually present as lame. Navicular is usually seen in both front feet, the horse may present lame in one foot but when that foot is nerve blocked will go lame on the other. Symptoms I noticed in my horse were a deterioration in the quality of his paces, a reluctance to go off drops into water xc, and the occasional stop when jumping on hard ground (he never used to stop at all). His near fore hoof (one he presents lame on) also started to change shape slightly.
Navicular is a contentious disease as it is difficult to diagnose exactly where the problems lie, it tends to be given a more generic name of navicular syndrome, which covers a multitude of lameness possibilities in the navicular region, and is is also misdiagnosed a fair amount.
Your vet will go through a series of nerve blocks to locate the area of pain and rule out other possibilities. They will then xray the area, some navicular horses will show radiographic changes in the navicular bone but not all horses do. A better diagnostic tool is to do an MRI but these are expensive.
The treatments my horse has had are:
remedial shoeing - currently eggbars and equithane but hopefully in the future we will try natural balance and equithane, or possibly rubber shoes.
Tildren - a new drug soon to be licenced in the UK, currently needs to be imported. it is given as an IV infusion over about an hour and is reported to help prevent futher bone loss or even help to rebuild bone.
Shockwave therapy - a course of 4 treatments given 10 days apart
Synequin - a chondroprotective supplement
The next steps would be to give bute if the above fails to work, but if the horse isn't comfortable like this he will be PTS.
Hope that helps
hussar
Well-Known Member
My then 14yo endurance Arab was diagnosed with navicular 2 years ago. With hindsight the signs had been present for about six months but I didn't put 2+2 together. He started being reluctant to trot out on hard surfaces - I thought he was just getting a bit stiff as he wasn't lame. Then he started leaning heavily on the farrier when having his hind feet done - in retrospect it must have been difficult for him to carry the weight on his front feet. Once the diagnosis was made I then realised it had been ages since he'd done the spectacular extended trot that Arabs excel in - yet another sign.
All in all, I'd be more alert now. The vets believe the problem was primarily as a result of concussion but his upright pastern conformation didn't help.
He has remedial shoes, we tried Navilox and Tildren to no effect; he now has a daily dose of No-Bute and will probably have to go onto bute in the spring. He is still rideable on soft surfaces but could never compete again.
All in all, I'd be more alert now. The vets believe the problem was primarily as a result of concussion but his upright pastern conformation didn't help.
He has remedial shoes, we tried Navilox and Tildren to no effect; he now has a daily dose of No-Bute and will probably have to go onto bute in the spring. He is still rideable on soft surfaces but could never compete again.
hollyzippo
Well-Known Member
I think you will have to wait until vet has done a lameness work up and x rays before you know the extent of the problem. It can be mild and they may still compete at a low level or it can be worse.
My chap started stopping xc which was unheard of and looked pottery on corners on a hard surface. He was 14 and TB with average miles so not a great surprise when he turned out to have navicular.
However, although I cant event anymore, he is sound in a straight line on any surface and sound on a circle in the school. Just cant compete (could do dressage on a surface but he hates it and is a prat!!). So I think I am lucky really as he loves hacking and I let him pop tiny jumps if the ground is soft as he enjoys it so much.
Basically you have to reduce the concussion to the feet, so no trotting on roads etc as mechanical damage worsens it. Mine also had Steroid injections and is on CortaVet HA (vasodilator- so increases blood flow to navicular bursae). He is still sound but may need another injection this year and so on. He doesnt however need any pain relief (so far) and while he is sound I wouldnt put him on any form of bute/no bute.
So not always a nightmare
Disappointing I cant event him again but he loves hacking and fun rides so while hes happy doing that, I will always take him for regular outings as I think its quality of life. if he gets to the point whaere hes lame on a straight line I will have to rethink
Good luck with your horse. Let us know how he/she goes
My chap started stopping xc which was unheard of and looked pottery on corners on a hard surface. He was 14 and TB with average miles so not a great surprise when he turned out to have navicular.
However, although I cant event anymore, he is sound in a straight line on any surface and sound on a circle in the school. Just cant compete (could do dressage on a surface but he hates it and is a prat!!). So I think I am lucky really as he loves hacking and I let him pop tiny jumps if the ground is soft as he enjoys it so much.
Basically you have to reduce the concussion to the feet, so no trotting on roads etc as mechanical damage worsens it. Mine also had Steroid injections and is on CortaVet HA (vasodilator- so increases blood flow to navicular bursae). He is still sound but may need another injection this year and so on. He doesnt however need any pain relief (so far) and while he is sound I wouldnt put him on any form of bute/no bute.
So not always a nightmare
Good luck with your horse. Let us know how he/she goes
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Cortavet HA a vasodilator
thats a new one on me, I thought it was in a similar class of supplement to synequin?
Navilox is most certainly a vasodilator
Navilox is most certainly a vasodilator
hollyzippo
Well-Known Member
Sorry, typing faster than brain can keep up with in hurry at work!!
Yep, Navilox is vasodilator, he had 3 month course of that.
CortaVet is joint supplement with added Hyaluronic (HMM Sp?!) to improve absorption rate by changing particle size.
Gosh, and I work at a vets!!
Yep, Navilox is vasodilator, he had 3 month course of that.
CortaVet is joint supplement with added Hyaluronic (HMM Sp?!) to improve absorption rate by changing particle size.
Gosh, and I work at a vets!!
icemaiden113
Well-Known Member
Really sorry your horse has navicular. It is noramlly caused by excessive strain or jarring and would be expected in and older horse. But it isn't the end of the world! (it just seems it) Although it is a degenerative disease and going to get worse you can help ease the sypmtoms in so many ways, a lot have already been suggested on here, but it does not mean the end of your competition days. i used to show jump a horse with navic, not just low level but foxhunters, so long as the ground was soft of he was on a surface he was fine!
Have a word with your vet just to make sure it is navicular, and good luck!
Have a word with your vet just to make sure it is navicular, and good luck!
brightmount
Well-Known Member
Navicular is heel pain which is why an affected horse may seem to be landing toe first. There is navicular disease, which is degenerative involving the navicular bone, and navicular syndrome which is more of an umbrella term for issues with the structure in the foot that may involve the soft tissues. The latter is far more straightforward to turn around.
A low nerve block will locate the pain to the heel area, and an MRI scan is the best method of seeing exactly what you are dealing with and therefore the best treatment.
My horse was severely lame with navicular syndrome. It was so bad she was almost PTS, and I had the MRI scan on insurance to satisfy myself that we were doing the right thing. The scan picked up a lot of problems, but none were terminal in themselves. I decided at that point to take her out of shoes. We had an Equine Podiatrist on the yard who had good success with navicular cases and he took her on as a project.
To cut a long story short, it was the best thing I ever did and it gave her her life back. In allowing her foot to function as nature intended, the lameness has disappeared. She improved as soon as the shoes came off, and over the last year has continued to progress. She is back in work and competing. We used boots and pads to start with, but the boots haven't been used for the past 6 months.
The other supplements I give her are for general arthritis, and they are Pernamax Equine and Cortaflex.
When considering your options, have a good look at this website: http://www.aepauk.org/
A low nerve block will locate the pain to the heel area, and an MRI scan is the best method of seeing exactly what you are dealing with and therefore the best treatment.
My horse was severely lame with navicular syndrome. It was so bad she was almost PTS, and I had the MRI scan on insurance to satisfy myself that we were doing the right thing. The scan picked up a lot of problems, but none were terminal in themselves. I decided at that point to take her out of shoes. We had an Equine Podiatrist on the yard who had good success with navicular cases and he took her on as a project.
To cut a long story short, it was the best thing I ever did and it gave her her life back. In allowing her foot to function as nature intended, the lameness has disappeared. She improved as soon as the shoes came off, and over the last year has continued to progress. She is back in work and competing. We used boots and pads to start with, but the boots haven't been used for the past 6 months.
The other supplements I give her are for general arthritis, and they are Pernamax Equine and Cortaflex.
When considering your options, have a good look at this website: http://www.aepauk.org/
Hollyhorse
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all that information - a lot of details! I feel much clearer in my mind about what it is, I tried researching it and got so many different views that it really helps to hear from people that have experienced it first-hand. My horse is a 17.2 dressage horse who's only 5 years old. We use an Equine Podiatrist who took his shoes off a year ago and he's been happily barefoot since, although grows hardly any hoof (we're now addressing this with the help of an equine nutritionalist so fingers crossed). He went lame about 4 weeks ago. We thought it was him being footsore as he'd had a SLIGHT trim the day before and in trot he was acting as if he was trotting on nails/hot surface so was clearly in the foot. I had a vet up last week who confirmed it was in the foot and said it was either him being footsore or navicular - hence the questions! Not satisfied I contacted a local equine podiatrist to come and check it out and she came today. She's practically positive it's not navicular and did lots of hoof testing and says he's not footsore either. She thinks it's low level laminitus. I'm very sceptical as he's not fat, standing on his heels, reluctant to move, with a cresty neck. But then she said that laminitus is not the rotation of the pedal bone in the foot, instead it's simply inflammation in the hoof. This makes sense as he's clearly sore in his foot and if it's not the actual surface as we first thought it makes sense that it's below the surface. The plan of action is to give him time off and walk him in hand for 10-15 minutes every day in horse boots with pads in. This with the nutritionalist supplements should hopefully help, but doesn't look like there's much else I can be doing? Does anyone have any views? Again, any help would be greatly appreciated as I feel at a slight loss! Many thanks
spaniel
Well-Known Member
For heavens sake dont start faffing about self diagnosing and self prescribing.
Get the vet back out and get the job done by someone who knows whats what.
Get the vet back out and get the job done by someone who knows whats what.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
OMG !!!
Firstly no vet I know would say it's either footsore or navicular ... especially without doing any investigation.
My advice, seeing as though you are based in Southampton, is to call Liphook and get one of their vets to examine your horse, it might also be worth considering putting shoes on your horse.
Firstly no vet I know would say it's either footsore or navicular ... especially without doing any investigation.
My advice, seeing as though you are based in Southampton, is to call Liphook and get one of their vets to examine your horse, it might also be worth considering putting shoes on your horse.
lizzie_liz
Well-Known Member
My mare Honey was diagnosed with navicular at the age of 6 in 2002.
The vet originally came out to look at her as she was lame in her right hock and was losing her balance in the trailer. When the vet came she trotted up lame in front and serverly lame on the lunge. She was nerve blocked, which isolated the lameness to her feet. She had x rays done which were non conclusive and was referred to Newmarket where further x rays were performed and scientigraphy (sp) was also done which showed navicular in both front feet.
She was put on a course of bute, which was ineffective, had eggbar shoes on again had little effect and was injected with steriods in her coffin joint. While this was going on we were instructed to work her as normal. This process lasted the whole summer (about 3 months). It was then decided to claim LOU for her, which we did. We then turned her away over the winter.
i then proceeded to get another horse. In 2003 she came sound again, by this point she was on no bute and had normal shoes and having blue chip dynamic. By 2004 we started jumping her again. In 2005 she started going to competions again. in 2006 went to the trailblazer SJ finals (85cm) and had won a couple of dressage competitions, getting 70% in her last prelim test.
She is now on cider vinegar and in regular work and competes whenever I am home from uni. She has not had a days lameness since we claimed LOU for her.
Hope you soon find out what is wrong with yours
The vet originally came out to look at her as she was lame in her right hock and was losing her balance in the trailer. When the vet came she trotted up lame in front and serverly lame on the lunge. She was nerve blocked, which isolated the lameness to her feet. She had x rays done which were non conclusive and was referred to Newmarket where further x rays were performed and scientigraphy (sp) was also done which showed navicular in both front feet.
She was put on a course of bute, which was ineffective, had eggbar shoes on again had little effect and was injected with steriods in her coffin joint. While this was going on we were instructed to work her as normal. This process lasted the whole summer (about 3 months). It was then decided to claim LOU for her, which we did. We then turned her away over the winter.
i then proceeded to get another horse. In 2003 she came sound again, by this point she was on no bute and had normal shoes and having blue chip dynamic. By 2004 we started jumping her again. In 2005 she started going to competions again. in 2006 went to the trailblazer SJ finals (85cm) and had won a couple of dressage competitions, getting 70% in her last prelim test.
She is now on cider vinegar and in regular work and competes whenever I am home from uni. She has not had a days lameness since we claimed LOU for her.
Hope you soon find out what is wrong with yours
Doublethyme
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
She thinks it's low level laminitus. I'm very sceptical as he's not fat, standing on his heels, reluctant to move, with a cresty neck. But then she said that laminitus is not the rotation of the pedal bone in the foot, instead it's simply inflammation in the hoof. This makes sense as he's clearly sore in his foot and if it's not the actual surface as we first thought it makes sense that it's below the surface.
[/ QUOTE ]
Horses do not have to be fat, standing their heels and reluctant to move etc to have low grade laminitis (LGL). LGL is not universally recognised at the moment by many experts, but it does exist.
My mare was completely sound in shoes, no obvious laminitic signs. Had the shoes off 14 months ago and she kept being footy etc - laminitis never entered my head because I thought like you that it mean fat horse that can't move etc!
In fact, she was suffering very low grade laminitis which once I recognised it and resolved diet issues, is completely under control and she is storming on her barefeet and going better than ever. Interestingly I always thought she hated the hot weather in the summer, as she always went lazy and stuffy when in shoes - now I am pretty sure she could well have been suffering low grade undetechtable low grade lami instead and it was only out of shoes it showed up and even then not with huge signs.
I would recommend visiting the www.enlightenedequitation.com forum (barefoot section), there is reams and reams of information on low grade laminitis and diets/supplements etc that can help.
Magnesium supplementation is a must as a starter. I also found that alfalfa caused my mare problems.
My mare is a TBxWarmblood, not fat etc so not your standard laminitis candidate.
Whilst I agree that you should consult your vet if it is full on laminitis, I would say that most vets will not recognise low grade lami and will just say its because the horse has no shoes! I know with my mare, the shoes back on would probably have made her seem "sound", but it wasn't resolving the root cause of the problem which was dietary and therefore I would have gone on oblivious until she did have a full blown lami attack. Without the shoes I have been able to detect the tiniest change in her level of comfort and manage accordingly, making for a very happy comfortable horse.
Its certainly worth investigation.
She thinks it's low level laminitus. I'm very sceptical as he's not fat, standing on his heels, reluctant to move, with a cresty neck. But then she said that laminitus is not the rotation of the pedal bone in the foot, instead it's simply inflammation in the hoof. This makes sense as he's clearly sore in his foot and if it's not the actual surface as we first thought it makes sense that it's below the surface.
[/ QUOTE ]
Horses do not have to be fat, standing their heels and reluctant to move etc to have low grade laminitis (LGL). LGL is not universally recognised at the moment by many experts, but it does exist.
My mare was completely sound in shoes, no obvious laminitic signs. Had the shoes off 14 months ago and she kept being footy etc - laminitis never entered my head because I thought like you that it mean fat horse that can't move etc!
In fact, she was suffering very low grade laminitis which once I recognised it and resolved diet issues, is completely under control and she is storming on her barefeet and going better than ever. Interestingly I always thought she hated the hot weather in the summer, as she always went lazy and stuffy when in shoes - now I am pretty sure she could well have been suffering low grade undetechtable low grade lami instead and it was only out of shoes it showed up and even then not with huge signs.
I would recommend visiting the www.enlightenedequitation.com forum (barefoot section), there is reams and reams of information on low grade laminitis and diets/supplements etc that can help.
Magnesium supplementation is a must as a starter. I also found that alfalfa caused my mare problems.
My mare is a TBxWarmblood, not fat etc so not your standard laminitis candidate.
Whilst I agree that you should consult your vet if it is full on laminitis, I would say that most vets will not recognise low grade lami and will just say its because the horse has no shoes! I know with my mare, the shoes back on would probably have made her seem "sound", but it wasn't resolving the root cause of the problem which was dietary and therefore I would have gone on oblivious until she did have a full blown lami attack. Without the shoes I have been able to detect the tiniest change in her level of comfort and manage accordingly, making for a very happy comfortable horse.
Its certainly worth investigation.
Hollyhorse
Well-Known Member
Doublethyme - have replied to your comment on my other post. Have also PMed you. Many thanks!
aran
Well-Known Member
if you are going to supplement then get your hay analysed and her bloods done as over supplementation can cause serious illness - you dont just give things becuase they might help - you give them because you horse is difficient in that element and needs supplementation