Question on colour again

M

magic104

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It is only recently that we have recognised coloured TB's. But I am curious about how you can have coloureds labelled as ID x TB or Welsh x TB when to my knowledge neither breed acknowledges coloured in thier breed standard? If that is still the case, how then can horses keep being advertised as ID or Welsh cross TB? Just curious because I think I have missed something.
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I can only imagine that these people who are advertising these horses haven't actually the faintest idea of the breeding of these horses....
 
I second that...I recently saw a 16.2 piebald gelding for sale (and I mean very coloured...not just a splash of white) that was listed as a pure bred and papered Welsh Sec D.....HELLOOOO!!!!
 
When doing CHAPS gradings I have been told (by some top M&M / Welshie people) that coloured ponies do appear naturally in the Welsh breeds and can be registered but are never approved as stallions, hence they come to CHAPS. Actually none of the ones I have seen have been at all good (and none passed grading when I was there as far as I know) and some may even just had a very extreme form of the sabino gene (right up into the body) which does exist but is also disappoved of.

I am prepared to be shot down in flames here, but I also think that there is a form of sabino gene that very often gives colour (isn't Sally Lister's Resident Gypsy one of these, although obviusly not Welsh of course?), so perhaps that is another source.

Just a suggestion.
 
If it's not a made up pedigree then I suspect it is the cropping out of the Sabino gene. I have noticed in recent years the increasing amount of white markings in true TB lines. (That is not the "coloured" TB's that have worked their way into the breed via racing paints registered with the Jockey Club in the US I think someone in the UK has imported an unraced one of these that was a mix if I remember rightly of splashed White Tobiano and sabino).

Many of the more recent Coolmore interns are bordering on cropping out and no one knows the point a which a sabino steps into the realms of splashed white or some on the other spotting patterns. I personally hold with the theory that all spotted patterns emanate from Sabino mutating.

Until recently in the TB you had either minimal white markings (discouraged in the UK due to associated weak white hoof horn) or the rare all out sabino white, but now we are starting to see body patches which at some point will lead to more white on the body.

With the welsh breeds white limbs have been positively encouraged in the show ring for a long time now, with some judges promoting such loud individuals over their less white counterparts. Combine this with the increase in chestnuts which allow more white modifiers to express then you are creeping towards more loudly marked individuals.

It is in the smaller welsh breeds that you see the only real European example of the splashed white spotting pattern, apparently there is someone in the welsh breeds that knows exactly how to produce a splash but is unwilling to share that valuable knowledge. That information would tell us exactly how and when sabino mutates to something more!

So if the heritage of these horses is genuine it is probably crop out sabino at the route of it!
 
Thanks for that, very interesting indeed. If these horses are reg perhaps that would be a way of finding out where the gene has come from.

Taken from the ID
Any strong colour, including greys, white leg, above the knees or hocks, not desirable

Taken from the Welsh society
Colour
Any colour, except piebald and skewbald

And pinched from another forum discussing TB colours
There are a few possible exceptions to the general rule that all thoroughbreds are solid. First, grey horses get lighter as they age so some are dappled. Also, some grey horses have patches of color known as "bloody shoulder marks" even though these markings can be found on other parts of the body besides the shoulders (see the picture of Charmander on the third page of Article 1.

Second, there is an ongoing dispute as to whether a thoroughbred can ever be a real roan or whether those thoroughbreds registered as roans (which has been permitted by the Jockey Club) are really genetically gray. "Gray is a pattern of white hairs infiltrating a coat of any base color (bay, chestnut, brown, black, etc.), that steadily lightens with age. The gray gene progressively blocks pigmentation of the coat. Roan is identified as white hairs infiltrating any base coat color from birth but the overall effect does not lighten with age." (see Thoroughbred Times article) According to this article, although race horses can be registered as grey or roan (e.g., Winning Colors was registered as roan), "it is safe to say that nearly all Thoroughbreds registered as roans in the last 60 years or so were actually grays." Whereas greys get lighter as they age, roans do not. Even though Winning Colors was registered as a roan, because she became lighter as she got older it is clear that she was really a gray.

However, both the articles below indicate that there may be a small number of true roan thoroughbreds. These roans come in two types: "sabino" and "rabicano." The sabino pattern is characterized by extensive white markings of the face and legs, usually with ragged borders, and often accompanied by some roaning on the flanks and belly. Catch a Bird, whose picture can be found here on p.3 of Article 1 is a sabino.
The rabicano pattern appears as white hairs mixed in the base coat, especially along the flanks and in the hairs at the root of the tail. The roaning on the flanks can sometimes be extensive enough to create a vertical striping pattern along the ribs. The hairs at the base of the tail often appear as bars or rings, giving the coloration the name "coon tail" or "skunk tail." An example of a rabinico race horse is Colorful Tour, whose picture can also be found on page 3 of Article 1.
Very long winded but just about sums up pocomoto's rply

Posted: Saturday, May 04, 2002


A roan by any other name is a roan

Contrary to Jockey Club convention, gray and roan--not to mention white--are completely separate genes

True or false: In 1988, Winning Colors became the first roan to win the Kentucky Derby (G1). The answer is true because Winning Colors was registered as a roan by the Jockey Club. The answer is also false because Winning Colors was genetically a gray, not a roan.

In 1993, the Jockey Club introduced a new color category for registration purposes by combining two old categories. Henceforth, all horses that would previously have been registered as "gray" or "roan" would be registered under the umbrella of "gray or roan." This was all well and good except for the fact that, outside of Thoroughbred breeders, the rest of the horse world long has been aware that gray and roan are two unrelated color patterns controlled by two completely different genes.

Gray is a pattern of white hairs infiltrating a coat of any base color (bay, chestnut, brown, black, etc.), that steadily lightens with age. The gray gene progressively blocks pigmentation of the coat. Roan is identified as white hairs infiltrating any base coat color from birth but the overall effect does not lighten with age. The most important difference between the two is that, outside of seasonal coat changes, roan is nonfading, while the very nature of gray is the fading color. In other words, if the horse is turning white, it is due to the gray gene not the roan gene.

Therefore, it is easy to figure out that Winning Colors, who won the Kentucky Derby while she was still a pretty rose gray but who is now a silvery white, must therefore actually be a gray. Likewise, Vigors, Heavenly Cause, Al Hattab, and Geisha (dam of the great Native Dancer), all of whom were registered as roan, turned white with age and thus were, in actuality, grays.

In fact, it is safe to say that nearly all Thoroughbreds registered as roans in the last 60 years or so were actually grays. This has led to another sweeping generality that may also be untrue. There are those who argue that roan is not a valid color in the Thoroughbred and that the term should be thrown out of the registry altogether. While the term roan has been misused in its confusion with gray, there is evidence to indicate that some Thoroughbreds do carry genetics for roan color patterns. These horses do not display the classic or true roan patterns found in some other breeds such as the Quarter Horse, but they have roaning to some degree and seem to pass on this phenomenon to their offspring.

Different patterns, different genes

We have already given the description for roan, a nonfading mix of base color hairs with white hairs. This is the description that horsemen have used for centuries. But a deeper study into this color scheme reveals that there are different kinds of roaning patterns that are the result of different modifying genes. One might refer to a horse as spotted, although it may be either tobiano, overo, leopard Appaloosa, or dusted with Bend Or spots. These are all spotted patterns, but they are not spotted in the same way and are the result of different genes. Likewise, different genes can manifest the roan pattern in one form or another without the horse being a true roan in the genetic sense of carrying the Rn gene.

The true roan is often seen in Quarter Horses, some draft breeds, and a few other light horse breeds. These horses have the classic roan pattern, with the white hairs evenly distributed over most of the body but with the head and lower legs appearing darker because they are unaffected and so show the true coat color. This pattern is not seen in Thoroughbreds, but there are two other forms of roaning that can appear in Thoroughbreds in varying degrees.

One of these is called "sabino" and the other "rabicano." Sabinos are better known because they are harder to miss. The pattern is characterized by extensive white markings of the face and legs, usually with ragged borders, and often accompanied by some roaning on the flanks and belly. The sabino pattern is what makes the Clydesdales so flashy and is also popular among the Tennessee Walking Horse breed. In fact, many of the flashy strawberry roans in that breed are actually sabinos and not true roans.

In Thoroughbreds, horses carrying the sabino gene often have more than the average amount of white markings, and chestnuts also tend to be much flashier than bays. Northern Dancer carried the sabino gene, as evidenced by his own crooked blaze, snip and three white feet, and the many flashy chestnuts he sired, such as Vice Regent, Northern Taste, and The Minstrel. His granddam, Almahmoud, was a blazed-faced chestnut with stockings and is one of the most likely sources of the gene in his pedigree.

Sabino can manifest itself in varying degrees, perhaps reflecting an additive effect if a sabino gene comes from both parents. The top sprinter Time to Explode is a chestnut sabino with a blaze, high hindleg stockings, and a belly splash with some roaning on his barrel. A more radical version is the unraced Airdrie Apache (by Naevus-Not Quite White, by Northjet [Ire]), garishly splashed with white and red. He is a registered Thoroughbred, in fact registered as a chestnut, but he is also double registered with the American Paint Horse Association, because he is very nearly 50% white. Some of Airdrie Apache's offspring take sabino to the next level and are solid white, or nearly so, with blue or brown eyes (to distinguish them from albinos, which have pink eyes). In most cases, white Thoroughbreds are actually one big sabino-induced white marking.

Original sin

The other roaning variant, rabicano, shows up in Thoroughbreds and other breeds as white hairs or ticking mixed in their base coat, especially prominent along the flanks and in the hairs at the root of the tail. The roaning on the flanks can sometimes be extensive enough to create a vertical striping pattern along the ribs. The hairs at the base of the tail often appear as bars or rings, giving the coloration the name "coon tail" or "skunk tail." This explains the colorful name of a horse found in Volume 1 of the General Stud Book, the Ringtail Galloway, sired by Curwen's Bay Barb and out of an unnamed mare by Hip.

This rabicano coloring has popped up in some of the best of the breed. Cox's Ridge displayed this pattern in his bay coat, as did Slew City Slew, Doyoun, Bois Roussel, Pilate, Stedfast, St. Frusquin, Lesterlin, and Venison. The phenomenon in Thoroughbreds is better known as "Birdcatcher ticks," named for the famous stallion who displayed the same markings so vividly. Birdcatcher was foaled in 1833 and was a dark chestnut with a narrow blaze and a stocking on his right hind. A contemporary description of him notes that he was "chestnut, flanks ticked with gray hairs, a bunch of white hairs at the butt of his tail."

Yup, that's a rabicano. Birdcatcher was sired by Sir Hercules (1826), who was described as a black horse with silver hairs in his coat, especially his flanks and hindquarters, and at the root of his tail.

Digging through the first volume of the General Stud Book, the writer found at least 80 horses listed as roan. There did not seem to be the modern confusion between gray and roan; in fact, very few of these had gray parents. One of the earliest was a stallion referred to as Gresley's Bay Arabian, also known as Bay Roan. Apparently, this horse was a bay with some roan markings that were worth noting but not enough to describe as his base color.

Another was Miss Layton, also known as Lodge's Roan Mare (1731), by the flashy chestnut Partner out of a mare (color unknown) by The Cardigan Colt. This mare produced several roan offspring to the cover of the famous Regulus. There was a sister to Lodge's Roan Mare, who was also probably roan, since she appears as the dam of several roan offspring by Regulus and Cade, both bays. A third was the unnamed 1733 filly by Hip out of the Large Hartley Mare. Hip's color is unknown, but the Large Hartley Mare was chestnut.

Two more were Joan (1757) and her unnamed sister (1759), both by Regulus out of the mare Silvertail, by Whitenose (doubtless eponymously named). Both parents were said to be bay, but the dam's name reveals that she was probably also the owner of a tail with silver hairs in it, typical of a rabicano. It is worth noting that Silvertail's third dam was by Gresley's Bay Arabian (Bay Roan).

Bald but not hairless

The most remarkable thing about these early roans is the frequency with which the sires Regulus and Cade appear in their pedigrees. Even without those tracing back to the known roan mares noted above, the vast majority of the roans in Volume 1 of the General Stud Book have close and often multiple crosses of Regulus and Cade. Later in time, white hairs at the base of the tail were referred to as "Match'em arms" after Cade's son Matchem, who seems to have either displayed them himself or passed them on to his offspring.

Look closer at the pedigrees of Regulus and Cade. Both were sons of the Godolphin Arabian and out of mares by Bald Galloway. Bald Galloway was notably a brother to a mare named Points, who was the granddam of the Large Hartley Mare, a mare who was known to produce a roan foal.

Bald Galloway's color and markings are unknown, and his pedigree nearly so. He was by St. Victor's Barb (pedigree unknown) out of Grey Whynot, by Whynot (by Fenwick's Barb out of a Royal Mare), and his second dam was a Royal Mare. His name hints that he was a horse with a lot of white markings. In those days, the term bald was not used to refer to a lack of hair but instead, as we call a horse with a broad blaze "bald-faced," the term was used to describe excess white. The famous mare Bald Charlotte (1721) was a blazed-faced mare with hind stockings. In Old English, "bald" means "bright" or "shiny," which could refer to a hairless head or flashy markings (like a bald eagle), just as we say a horse with a lot of white markings has a lot of chrome. In other words, it is very possible that Bald Galloway was a blazed-faced horse, or one with stockings, or both. He may have been a sabino. He may also have been a rabicano, with extensive white hairs on his flanks and white in his tail, since we know the rabicano can have a silvery sheen to its coat. Bald Galloway had a daughter named Silverlocks.

While guessing that Bald Galloway and his sister Points were possibly sabinos or rabicanos may be a stretch, the same conclusion could also explain why Regulus and Cade, both out of daughters of Bald Galloway, might sire so many roan horses. Since many of these roans came from parents neither gray nor roan, we have to presume that one or both of their parents were minimally marked rabicanos, perhaps, like Cox's Ridge or Birdcatcher, just with white ticks in their coat and white hairs at the root of their tail. And, quite possibly, when a minimally marked rabicano is crossed with a minimally marked rabicano, the result can be a strikingly marked rabicano who appears for all intents and purposes to be a roan.

Contrary evidence

There are a few of these eye-catching horses in the American Stud Book. One was Carrier Pigeon, a foal of 1937 who was registered as a "chestnut roan."

Carrier Pigeon was an attractive chestnut with a lot of white hairs in his coat, especially along the flanks, and white hairs at the root of his tail. He seems to have passed his rabicano gene on to his daughter Corday, who in turn passed it on to her daughter, Our Martha, who was also a chestnut with extensive scattered white hairs and white hairs in her tail. Our Martha produced Cox's Ridge, who had Birdcatcher ticks and passed them on generously to his offspring. Carrier Pigeon was by the dark chestnut Equipoise and out of the bay mare Rockdove, by Friar Rock, a chestnut.

Another startlingly marked Thoroughbred was Pilate, who was a chestnut with white and gray hairs scattered throughout his coat, and dolloped with dark, egg-shaped Bend Or spots as well. Pilate was a son of Friar Rock out of the gray mare *Herodias, by The Tetrarch. Before you point fingers at the weirdly marked The Tetrarch as the source of all strange coat colors, please compose yourselves and remember that Carrier Pigeon's dam was a daughter of Pilate's sire, Friar Rock. To add to the genetic possibilities, *Herodias's dam was Honora, a daughter of the chestnut sabino Gallinule, who appears in the background of many flashy Thoroughbreds.

Another example is the Maryland stallion Berkley Prince, who was originally registered as a roan but was later changed to chestnut. The "Prince of Elberton" Farm in Maryland had extensive white ticking and white at the root of his tail. He was by the bay Rash Prince (by Prince John) and his dam was the bay Betrayed, by Tip-Toe. Betrayed was a daughter of the mare Pyrrha, by Pilate. Rash Prince was a son of Prince John, a chestnut with a blaze and white hairs in his coat but not white in his tail. Prince John threw a lot of excess white and more than a few suspiciously roany-looking animals such as Mandate. Interestingly enough, Prince John also goes back in direct female line to Pilate's dam, *Herodias.

Rash Prince went back in female line to Friar's Carse, by Friar Rock. (Friar's Carse is the dam of War Relic, who also had white ticking in his coat.) Berkley Prince's best offspring was the top mare Weber City Miss, dam of Slew City Slew, who also has rabicano characteristics and throws Birdcatcher ticks with regularity.

A particularly colorful case is that of the 1980s stakes winner Contrary Rose. Win photos of Contrary Rose show what would otherwise be described as a strawberry roan; however, the mare was registered as a chestnut. Rose's head and upper legs were solid colored, but her midsection was several shades lighter, overrun with a mix of white hairs, and the top of her tail was like a bright white brush. She was a very gaudy affair, with a broad blaze and four stockings, both up over her knees in front. I would suggest that Contrary Rose was not only a rabicano, but she was also a sabino. Contrary Rose was a most obvious strawberry roan.

Contrary Rose was by Seat of Power, another horse with a lot of chrome, a blaze and stockings, which is unusual on a dark bay or brown body. His dam was the top mare *Beaver Street, by *My Babu, and the next dam was Wood Fire, a daughter of Bois Roussel, who was also covered in Birdcatcher ticks and had a white-topped tail. Contrary Rose's dam was Kari Contrary, who was 5x5 to Friar Rock, once through the mare Tiens, bred very much like Carrier Pigeon, being by Equipoise's sire Pennant and out of a daughter of Friar Rock. All things seem to point to Friar Rock as a rabicano carrier.

So, we come to the end of our little roan adventure. We have learned that the confusion over gray and roan is a silly one created by a misunderstanding of basic terminology. If the horse is getting lighter with age, then it is a gray, pure and simple. But we have also seen that roaning patterns do exist in the Thoroughbred and have since the beginning of the breed, thanks to the presence of the sabino and rabicano genes. So, the question becomes, when is a roan not a roan? Apparently, the answer is, "When it's a Thoroughbred."
 
You are quite right the numpties have not sussed that it might look like a roan today but to put it on a passport for life when it is soon going to be white is not a good idea!!!

Need a while to digest that lot but there is a small line of TRUE roan TB's. They stem from a NZ bred (i think) horse called Catch a Bird who was himself thought to be a stress related gentic mutation. He was marked like a brindle with a dark coat and white brindle like markings, he never threw himself but some of his offspring were true roans.

Have a look at this lot it should keep you quiet for a while he is on there and one of his roan offspring!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html
 
Must be a US site too much info!!!!

Blood markings in greys & grey roans are thought to be due to some hairs having deeper follicles which the grey mutation either reaches more slowly or in some cases not at all. This is thought to be why some greys fade more slowly than others.

Sabino ticking and rabicano are not roan but can mimic it, sabino ticking is usually apparent with typical sabino white markings (which are not all white markings), but those that have certain characteristics such as upward lightening like tapering of leg markings and a white blaze accompanied by a white chin etc. Rabicano ticking can appear in non sabino individuals and is rife in the TB ranging from the odd white hairs here and there to the rare and extreme weird patterns. Take a close look at a few non sabino TB’s and you will probably see it.

I don’t believe that Catch a birds markings were sabino or rabicano because of his resulting true roan offspring. I think they are a mutation similar to that which happened in evolution to produce the roan originally, he never threw himself and some of his progeny were true roan which would be in keeping with roan dominant inheritance i.e. 50/50, true roans are not available in homozygous genotype form, it is thought that homozygous eggs do not implant after conception and this is often put down to infertility. Interestingly a solid horse gets white hairs from scarring but a roan that is scarred looses the white hairs!!!

Some roans are born with the roaning over just the hind quarters so roans are not all extended, so who knows what came first, is rabicano a derivative of roan or vice versa and where does sabino fit in!

So roan being heterozygous means it would have been quickly bred out of the TB with only a handful of foundation roans in the original studbook. This makes Catch a Bird so very interesting.

“some Thoroughbreds do carry genetics for roan color patterns. These horses do not display the classic or true roan patterns found in some other breeds such as the Quarter Horse, but they have roaning to some degree and seem to pass on this phenomenon to their offspring.” To me this would be sabino ticking or rabicano.

There is also so called roaning in the appaloosa (I call it varnish as it is not roan) this is associated with appaloosa characteristics and I believe it is the minimal expression of appaloosa, but in the appaloosa it does result in selective fading leaving the spots.

Clearly the guidelines on the Welsh breeds are not always strictly adhered to !!!! Especially in the show pony classes. I have seen quite a few splash white sabino roans about, most of them quite loud! Whilst I think steps are being taken to control white markings I don't think there are any restrictions on breeding from crop outs, likewise with the TB's ancestor the Hackney, where in the show ring crop outs are discouraged but they are used as breeding stock.

What makes me chuckle is the New Forest breed, they are worse than the TB! They discourage flaxen chestnuts as they beleive they are responsible for palominos but licence buckskins thinking they are duns, but of course they are what are producing the palominos!
 
Facinating colour schemes, I remember years ago seeing a photo of "The Tetrarch" who looked grey with white splashes. I did think though that some of those TB's had a look of the QH about them. I am going back to have another look.
 
Oh yes I think they are a little less strict on what they term a TB in the States and the dilutes look particularly suspect!

There was a lot of mixing of genes in the early days of US racing as well. The 1st English exports were distance horses and early US tracks were 1/4 mile round so it would have been pretty boring watching something rack up several heats of 4 miles, jockey would have got off dizzy!!!

I think a lot of the sabino stuff is genuine but rare and the rabicano, but splashes and overo's etc very iffy!!
 
I suppose they would be there was a coloured TB in this country imported from the US a couple of years ago advertised in the H&H and it has to be accepted in the UK as it is registered with the governing body of racing in the US. They would have to be good enough to pass the grading process. Is there any colour restrictions in the Trac breed?

I don't know what standard they apply in the US am desperately searching for my weatherbys booklet on the requirements for entry in the GSB, but it must be somewhere safe. I think here they have so few coloured NTR entries in the UK that by the time they reach the pedigree requirements for the GSB all the colour is lost.

But over in the states they race QH's Appys and Paints and all three allow outcross to TB so you would quite quickly reach the standard for TB registration keeping the colour. Of course roan and dilutes are very prevalent in QH’s.

Best thing to do with the dollar so weak is to go over and claim a nice coloured TB for next to nothing out of training and fly it back for next to nothing!
 
Is there any colour restrictions in the Trac breed? Dont think there is actually.
Best thing to do with the dollar so weak is to go over and claim a nice coloured TB for next to nothing out of training and fly it back for next to nothing! Good idea except I dont want to add to the herd just yet!
 
Both Sabino and Frame occur in TBs, but are usually minimally expressed. I think the Splash gene as well?

Nite Spot- Frame TB
Airdrie Apache- Sabino TB that has sired several max-white sabinos

The pinto genes are similar to cream. They exist in TBs, but in the past have been called something else. Funfact: Roan does not exist in TBs.
 
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Oh yes I think they are a little less strict on what they term a TB in the States and the dilutes look particularly suspect!


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The dilutes trace back to spanish horses introduced into English lines in the 17th and 18th century. Sure, some may have come from spanish blood in the US, but usually they were just registered and bay and chestnut instead of buckskin and palomino. However, as the colors weren't desirable, they didn't get passed on much.

A good example of this is chestnut friesians. They don't want them, and thus tend not to breed known heter-black horses. But some are unknown and when bred together out pops a chestnut.
 
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But over in the states they race QH's Appys and Paints and all three allow outcross to TB so you would quite quickly reach the standard for TB registration keeping the colour. Of course roan and dilutes are very prevalent in QH’s.


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Both parents must be registered with the jockey club for a foal to be registered, so the outcross would have to be a hundred years back or more.

Roan: The only phenotypically roan TBs were bred in Australia. And there are/were roughly 4 total.
 
By the late 17thand 18th centaury the TB was a well established breed and there is no evidence of Spanish blood being introduced to the TB at this late stage in their development, The Spanish horse of today is descended from the Hacas of Spain which were English Hackneys, also a possible forerunner of the English TB siince they are first mentioned as a breed in the 1300's. Effectively by the mid 17th centaury TB books had become self closing in that the introduction of non TB blood did not add to performance and so was lost from the breed by lack of performance in any attempted outcrosses. See Breeding the Racehorse - Frederico Tesio. In the 17th centaury in Spain the PRE (Andalucían) had developed as a breed in its own right but at this stage was still converted by the nobility and was not easily bought by anyone who did not belong to that nobility, England and Spain were not the best of friends! The PRE was not even a breed when the Americas were initially colonised.

However there are some schools of thought that some of the TB foundation stock were dilutes, notably Darcy’s Yellow Turk 1665, although there are doubts as to whether he was in fact a flaxen chestnut, his father is listed as grey so the dilute could have been hidden underneath if indeed it was his father!!!. But the spotting, dilutes and roan being dominant genes and the large majority of the TB being of black, brown, bay and chestnut the “coloureds” would quickly have been bred out of English lines probably not by desire but by interbreeding with base coloured horses. Since no buckskins or palominos have materialised in the UK in living memory at the very least, it must be assumed to have been bred out of English lines a long time ago.

This is very much different than is the case with breeding chestnut out of a breed since chestnut is a recessive gene and as you quite rightly point out will pop up after generations of breeding bay, brown or black such as the Friesian and the Cleveland Bay, indeed you can do the same with dun I.e create a breed, the Norwegian Fjord . Conversely it is very easy to breed out Brown, Bay and
Black coats as has been done in the Suffolk Punch, now a breed of chestnuts.

Which is my point with US horses, because most other breed racing allows out crossing to TB it is not very long genetically before racing coloureds have enough generations of TB to TB breeding to advance to the American GSB. Hence the horse advertised in the Horse and Hound which was also a registered paint. But I have never seen one of these “coloured” individuals at the higher levels of US racing which suggests it is this route of reintroduction that has resulted in the individuals seen on the website I posted either that or there are pedigree inconsistencies.

All horses racing under rules in the USA are registered with the JC in some form but I don’t know the requirement of entry to the registries or the rules for advancement. Like I say I cannot find my book but I believe that it is eight generations to advancement from the English NTR to the General Stud Book, and not simply that both parents are registered. I seem to remember an English colour breeder that was trying to breed the first coloured TB in England using this route, but like I say with a lack of other such coloured applicants in the UK it is difficult to keep the dominant coat patterning going. Since you can’t easily get a homozygous horse. The thing with the TB is that it has self closing books and since it is principally bred for performance it is almost impossible to infiltrate the highest levels of flat racing lacking the very bluest of blood !

Re the roans in Australia, they were all direct descendants of Catch a Bird as above and were all genotypically true roans.

Re the Sabino / Splash, I have not seen a GB TB that looks like a minimal splash so I am inclined to side with big blazes being more due to sabino that the splash pattern, but again in the US who knows? Sabino like splash and frame can also produce blue eyes when it points at an eye and if Sabino is the origin of spotting patterns there is nothing to say it won’t mutate in the TB to a splash or frame. But it is a difficult call to differentiate.
 
The Jockey Club studbook has been absolutely closed since 1896. And dilute genes in the American TB population were introduced prior to that. There is only one level of registration, and it requires both parents to have been JC registered, and the foal bred through live cover. You can't have a horse "advance" into being a TB if it's not already a TB. I can't speak to the breed prior to the Jockey Club taking over the studbook, but in the case of racing paints that are double registered, they are TBs with spots. Until recently the APHA registered any crop out QH or TB as a paint. Thusly, even a 15/16th TB that is a registered paint cannot be entered into the Jockey Club studbook based on it's bloodlines, but any Jockey CLub registered TB with enough white would be registered by the APHA. I don't know about Splash, I've just heard that. But Sabino is thought to be highly prevalent in the American TB population, and Frame hides rather well. Dilutes are primarily through Milkie, who was the first known palomino registered with the Jockey Club.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/milkie, who knows where the color came from.
 
Found the import and there are pictures of him and some others in the pedigree, http://www.pedigreequery.com/i+was+framed.

English TB lines have never thrown anything like this like I said sabino in the English TB has always been very muted or on rare occasions extreme as in a sabino white, many of which go on to produce minimal offspring, likewise Dilutes have not been seen in the TB in England since detailed records began. It has only been in very recent generations that belly patches have been seen.

If the books have been closed for that length of time all I can say is that with the single dilute palomino there must be an anomaly somewhere in the back pedigree, maybe many generations back as he has a lot of brown in the bottom line there and that can hide dilute coats, unlike bays that show the buckskin colouring.

I suspect it might be likewise with the outcrop paints or it could be an environmentally linked mutation, since this particular horse's more well know ancestry largely don’t carry much sabino. It is said that the stud book committe declared his pedigree verified but it does not say if this involved any form on DNA evidence in the form of YDNA testing, that would also prove or disprove the origins of the palomino as well.
 
The dilutes trace back to spanish horses introduced into English lines in the 17th and 18th century.

Did the akhal-teke not also introduce the dilute gene into the TB?
 
Found the entry re English GSB

CONDITIONS OF ENTRY TO THE GENERAL STUD BOOK
A Thoroughbred is a horse which is recorded in a Thoroughbred Stud Book
Approved by the International Stud Book Committee at the time of its official
recording.
PEDIGREE
A To be eligible to be registered in the General Stud Book a horse must be
able either:
· 1. To be traced down all lines of its pedigree to horses registered in
(a) The General Stud Book, and/or
(b) Any Approved Thoroughbred Stud Book:
OR
· 2. To prove satisfactorily eight recorded crosses consecutively with
horses qualified as in category 1 above, including the cross of which it
is the progeny and to have satisfied the performance and approval
conditions as set out for foals in sections B 2 and 3 below.
For the purposes of the General Stud Book, horses in categories 1 and 2
above are designated “Thoroughbred”.
B In addition, a foal may be promoted from the Non-Thoroughbred Register
and registered in the Appendix to the General Stud Book when the following
conditions are satisfied:
· 1. It can be satisfactorily proven that the foal results from eight recorded
crosses consecutively with “Thoroughbreds” (as designated above)
including the cross of which it is the progeny.
· 2 The foal can show such performances in races open to
Thoroughbreds, in both the Thoroughbred and Non-Thoroughbred
sections of its pedigree, as to warrant its assimilation with
Thoroughbreds.
· 3 The promotion is approved by the unanimous agreement of the
International Stud Book Committee.
Notwithstanding the above Conditions the Proprietors of the General Stud
Book reserve the overall right to decide what horses can at any time be
admitted, excluded, or removed from the General Stud Book and related
publications.
 
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I am prepared to be shot down in flames here, but I also think that there is a form of sabino gene that very often gives colour (isn't Sally Lister's Resident Gypsy one of these, although obviusly not Welsh of course?), so perhaps that is another source.

Just a suggestion.

[/ QUOTE ]

My yearling is by Resident Gypsy and he turned out plain chestnut like his mum.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Facinating colour schemes, I remember years ago seeing a photo of "The Tetrarch" who looked grey with white splashes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like this little chap?

splodge.jpg


He's an RID gelding by Grange Bouncer - shown here being backed - but an extended search of his pedigree revealed The Tetrarch - 8 generations back!
 
Oh dear you lucked out on the colour there, but a nice horse anyway so no matter. Judging by his foals the stallion has one tobiano gene probably from his Blagden side and that is probably hidden under the sabino which was probably in the Blagden and is very common in a more extended form in the Hackney so he may have got a double dose or a lot of white modifiers from the Hackney.

If your mare doesn't show much white at all about her she is probably neutral for the white modifying genes which help amplify the extent of the white patterning, especially as he is a chestnut as that usually allows more white penetrance being a recessive colour.

Might well be that had your boy been bred from he might well have produced more white in his offspring. The sabino although being dominant has low or incomplete penetrance which means it can hide behind very minimal white markings and suddenly break out, hence the sabino whites.
 
Jasper was bred at Brackenspa Stud where I bought him from so I knew his colour beforehand! I just loved his big ears and kind eyes
smile.gif


I met both his parents when I purchased him, the mare had very little white and had a foal at foot, Jasper's full sister which was bay with a blaze and 4 stockings, very different to Jasper. I did consider buying her too!

Residents Gypsy's sire was a black Hackney I was told, he must have had a fair bit of white on him to give him his colouring as the dam was an Irish Draught.
 
Sorry assumed ma was Blagden from wording, i suppose they don't know a lot about his back pedigree as there aren't any pictures on the site.

Thats the thing with the sabino it doesn't have to be loud in either parent to suddenly burst out and sometimes the black coat will hide it very well. From the research I've read it looks like horses can store up factors for white and then it will burst out like in Resident Gypsy, it would be interesting to see the coloured foals he produced from just the solid mares and the mares themselves to see what the sabino is doing 2nd gen and if it needs help from the mare to continue breaking out, which I think it does but at some point it gets empowered some how and mutates to something else.

I think probably on non sabino solids like Jasper he wont produce a lot of colour.

From the foals on the web site I suspect he needs a tobiano gene from the mare as most of the coloured foals are typical of those markings, saw one with clydesdale like markings but can't see the dam in that one. what would be really interesting would be to breed his coloureds back to non sabino solids, that would tell a lot.

I think there is now a test for what they call sabino 1 but it keeps getting withdrawn so I suspect they are not yet there with it yet.

But you got a lovely horse with substance there with a good temperament that could turn his hand to anything so colour is not important. It appears that the filly took after a different parent, had that once hoped to breed a pair and they couldn't have been more different, bloody genetics!
 
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