Questions for vets...

[apkelly01]

Just looking for answers to the following questions please.

Before euthanasia of a horse, do you need to get consent from all names of owners on passport or just one?

If you were presented with a 12 year old horse that had visible melanomas but was not suffering or in pain. Would you put this horse down?

What are your views on convenience euthanasia?

Many thanks in advance,

 

[SEL]

I rarely judge - I'm rarely in possession of all the facts!

I was a bit annoyed by a lady who had a horse PTS purely for convenience a while back. She just couldn't ride it well and decided it had 'problems'. From the horse's perspective though it stuck its head in a bucket of feed and got an injection which it wasn't bothered by and knew no more.

I would possibly put down a horse with melanomas depending on where they were and how they affected the horse. If I didn't have the money to keep it and I wasn't sure it would be looked after in a new home..... so many things to consider.

Surely the passport just has one owner on it? They are usually in a single name.

 

[ihatework]

These sound like pre-loaded questions and I imagine there is a background to this?

1. If a horse is under multiple ownership how does the vet know this? Normally in these instances there would be a nominated person who would take the lead in this I suspect. On the assumption a horse is PTS without all legal owners consent/awareness I’d feel that I’d be taking the person who booked in the euthanasia most accountable.

2. Horses get put down for all sorts of non urgent reasons all the time. Some vets are more practical about it than others. Personally, if I had a horse that had a good quality of life I’d struggle to PTS, but if it were my job to do it I would respect the owners wishes.

3. As above.

 

[Sasana Skye]

My 15yo mare has multiple large melanomas which don't cause her pain or suffering and pts has not even crossed my mind because she is otherwise fit, well and enjoying life but then I have the means and desire to take care of her as best I can regardless of whatever cosmetic flaw she has because she's a fantastic horse and her heart is made of the purest and most precious gold. The moment her comfort level changed for the worse I would reassess the situation.

My views on convenience euthanasia depend on the other options available, if the other option is that the horses welfare would be put second and it couldn't be sold to a good home for whatever reason then I believe the horse is better off dead as there are many fates worse than death.

 

[LaurenBay]

Personally if my Horse had no pain related issues and still had a good quality of life and was happy. I could not PTS.

 

[apkelly01]

Thanks to everyone who answered. I suppose the questions are a little loaded. Ok, so here's the story.

In 1999 I shared a mare with my sister and both our names are on the passport. I was riding the mare and getting more out of her. My sister didn't have the same level of commitment. Where I'd be up every day, doing usual horse stuff, my sister would only come up once a week, if at all. As time went on, I ended up giving 100% commitment to the mare.

My sister complained she wasnt getting anything out of the mare and wanted a foal. I didn't want a foal for many reasons. The mare was on livery and we'd no facilities or experience with a foal. But in 2006 I was caught a low point in my life and my sister got her wish and the mare was in foal. 2007 the mare gave birth to a colt.

The foal was weaned and I got the mare back and my sister took the foal. Btw The foal was registered again in both our names. I tried to get back into riding but the low point in my life was affecting my interests. I visited the final as a yearling and nearly died. He was like a rescue case. He was in a riding school and because he was entire, he was locked away in a tiny stable. My sister thought the school was looking after him. Anyway, she moved him to a 5acre field behind the house where she was living. It was bog and he was sinking up to his knees. It was decided to bring him back to where I had the mare on livery and I'd look after both of them. I think my sister liked the idea of horse ownership without know it's a full time commitment. So I ended up looking after the foal I didn't want.

My sister wanted to keep him entire as she had a dream of owning a stallion. I said again, we'd no facilities, livery yards won't take a stallion and again, we've no experience with stallions. As a 2 year old colt, he was a handful. I was lucky to find a yard I could keep him in. I said to put him through the stallion inspections, if he passes keep him a stallion, if he fails geld him. I knew he fail and he did, so chop chop.

Over the years my sister lost interest in him. I was still struggling to get back into the riding game and looking after 2 horses didn't help. At 4 years old he developed the melanoma. He was broken at 5 and I tried to ride him but again I was struggling with depression. It got to the point were I was doing all my duties except riding. I had to force my sister to go up, she'd never go up on her own and definitely didn't do any of the DIY duties. I didnt mind not riding, the horses were happy out and I sure they didnt mind not getting ridden.

Ok, the melanoma did grow a bit. It's on his guttural pouch. We had vets look at him and they said just keep a eye on him. Look for depression, weightloss, colic, breathing and eating difficulties. Which I did.

Because my sister wanted the foal so bad I made her pay for his DIY livery, farrier, dentist etc, but I did the mucking out, feeding etc.

Anyway, after a 12 hour shift in work on a stormy night, I went to the yard. I had gotten another text from her saying to go up on my own as she's too tired. So I said enough, is enough, put him on full livery. I said i will look after him until the next Saturday and then he's on full livery. She said "i have until Saturday to get rid of him". I think she was just using emotional blackmail knowing how bonded I had become to the horse. I was bonded, I loved him, he was a sweet horse, had his mother's temperament and followed me around like a dog. She told me there was someone up to put him down and said that was cruel, to put him down because I asked her to take responsibility for him.

So no man came and the months past by. I'd noticed again she was failing behind in her livery and she was complaining again. She sent me a text saying she needed to do something about him as he's breaking her. I sent her a phone number of a lady who lives close by and has a huge field where loads of my friends have happily retired their horses to. She just replied about having him PTS.

I disagreed as he's still in good form, happy and enjoying life. He is still ridable as a happy hack, it's not my fault she doesn't use him. I said to contact riding schools, the kids would love him and he'd love the attention. But she would consider any other options.

So last Tuesday, she hit me with a bomb shell. She's arranged to have him pts the following day. She didn't tell me as she knew I'd protest as he's still happy and enjoying life. I was in shock! The next morning I asked her what time he was being done and she said it's already done! She didn't even tell me. I was and still am heartbroken. I've looked after him all these years, binded with him and him to me and my sister just thinks he's a burden and disposable.

She's telling everyone that he had an aggressive cancer and that's why he was PTS when I know that's not the reason! People are coming up to me and saying they're sorry but he was sick and it was for the best. Absolute bullsh*t. I saw him the day before and if he didn't have the visible lumps you'd say he was healthy and full of life.

The vet who put him sleep is resident on the yard. She would have seen him and seen he was fine, not in pain or suffering.

This was a convenience euthanasia case. If he was suffering and in pain, I'd have absolutely no objection to him being PTS but he wasn't.

I'm not surrounded by horse people and they dont understand how heartbroken I am. Theyre saying it's just a horse and to get over it. I've looked after him for the majority of his life and just because I didn't ride him doesn't mean I didn't care for him.

My mare is 25 now and retired. I'll love her till the day comes, but I will never put her to sleep just because I can't afford her. I'll do my upmost to make sure she's looked after as she deserves that. I'm so guilty I didn't do more to save her son but I wasn't given enough time.

I feel as my name is down as a owner, shouldn't I have to give consent?

Sorry for the long story, I think I searching for closure.

 

[AmyMay]

So your sister then had the horse destroyed??

 

[apkelly01]

So your sister then had the horse destroyed??

Yes, I posted the story before fully completing it.

 

[AmyMay]

Ah, sad news. Presumably you were no longer involved in her care.

 

[ihatework]

A horrid and sad tangled web.
But ultimately I think if it was your sister paying the bills for him then it was her final choice?
Very nasty way for her to go about it though - presumably if she had given you an ultimatum you would have bought (been given?) the horse off her and taken over his full care and bills - that’s the least she could have offered IMO.

 

[SEL]

A horrid and sad tangled web.
But ultimately I think if it was your sister paying the bills for him then it was her final choice?
Very nasty way for her to go about it though - presumably if she had given you an ultimatum you would have bought (been given?) the horse off her and taken over his full care and bills - that’s the least she could have offered IMO.

Yes - that's what I though too.

OP - I am really sorry. Losing a horse we care about always takes a bit of our hearts too. Its probably no comfort right now, but you did everything you could to look after him and its absolutely understandable you will miss him.

 

[apkelly01]

A horrid and sad tangled web.
But ultimately I think if it was your sister paying the bills for him then it was her final choice?
Very nasty way for her to go about it though - presumably if she had given you an ultimatum you would have bought (been given?) the horse off her and taken over his full care and bills - that’s the least she could have offered IMO.

Yes - that's what I though too.

OP - I am really sorry. Losing a horse we care about always takes a bit of our hearts too. Its probably no comfort right now, but you did everything you could to look after him and its absolutely understandable you will miss him.

I could have done more. There's so many ifs but nothing will bring him back now. I havent spoken to my sister since. I know in time the pain will ease but he didn't deserve it.

 

[apkelly01]

Ah, sad news. Presumably you were no longer involved in her care.

Because the weather has been good they've been living out. So I'd just go up and check them over and make sure they're good.

 

[apkelly01]

This was taken the day before he was PTS. He's the grey in the middle. His mother is on the right and that's his friend to the left. You can see the melanomas.

 

[Fransurrey]

From a vet's perspective, a passport is not proof of ownership. I had an old pony pts just over a week ago and the passport wasn't even presented.

This does sound like a shitty thing to do, though. :-(

 

[ycbm]

I am sorry for the way that your sister handled this, but I think she did the right thing putting him down. He's had melanomas for seven years and had advanced melanoma right near his brain in a place where it is known to be invasive. He was ticking time bomb. The last horse I knew with melanoma there suddenly started to have fits. She caused injury to her rider when the first known one happened out on a ride and after a few more she died a bad death a couple of weeks later. She'd probably been having headaches for some time before that. It would not have been safe to rehome your fellow to be ridden. I would far rather any horse of mine was PTS than take the risk that they are suffering in silence or will die by fitting.


..

 

[apkelly01]

I'm sorry to read about the horse with melanomas and the rider was injured. I hope they are ok. I understand about a ticking time but that's a chance we take. I've known horses, both young, who have collapsed and died from aneurysm but because they didn't have external signs of this, they were treated as normal and ridden as normal. Fortunately, both riders were ok. Poor Bandit had a visible condition which unfortunately caused people to treat him differently and my sister used it as an excuse to put him down before his time. I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him live until there were signs. Then I'd have no hesitation in having him relieved from his suffering, even if it was just a tiny hint of trouble. But until then, he could have been moved to that lady's field and lived his days out there. It may have affected tomorrow, next year, 6 years, who knows, we'll never know now. If I had the money, I would have taken him on but I couldn't afford 2 horses on livery.

My mare is 25 and I'm keeping an eye on her. She is missing her boy because normally she's very independent and would graze on her own. But since he's gone, she's very clingy with the other horses, especially the chestnut in the picture.

 

[apkelly01]

From a vet's perspective, a passport is not proof of ownership. I had an old pony pts just over a week ago and the passport wasn't even presented.

This does sound like a shitty thing to do, though. :-(

That's crazy and sad. I know they took his passport away on the day so they would have seen the details inside.

 

[ycbm]

The mare I am talking about had no signs until the day she nearly killed her rider by having her first fit when out on a group ride. Her melanoma was identical to your boy's. It had invaded her brain.

Passports are not proof of ownership. No vet or knackerman who has put down a horse when I have been there has ever requested the passport.

The vet did nothing wrong in putting down a horse with advanced melanoma before it was visibly affected by it.

Your quarrel is with your sister, not the vet.


.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That's crazy and sad. I know they took his passport away on the day so they would have seen the details inside.

Vets don't normally take a horse's passport with them when they pts. It is the owner's responsibility to return the passport to the PO, not the vet's. All horses that are pts don't have a vet visit. I'm not certain that your sister is telling you the true story even now, or maybe the version we are getting is not quite right.

 

[Sasana Skye]

My mare started developing melanomas when she was about 6 or 7, she's now 15. Her melanomas are in the same place as the horse in the picture and on the temporomandibular joint. She fractured her skull in two places last summer and was subsequently sent to the hospital for a CT scan to check for neurological damage. There was absolutely nothing in her brain that shouldn't have been there I was expecting it but zilch. It gave me huge comfort.

Eta: Not exactly helpful images because I’ve drawn all over them but her melanomas are very obvious and large but completely harmless as it stands

 

[meleeka]

OP I can see why you’re upset and I would be too. He might not have had many years left anyway and I rarely judge anyone that makes that decision, whatever their motives, but to not discuss it with you is appalling. You should have been part of the decision If you were the joint owner.

 

[tankgirl1]

I'm sorry for your loss xx

 

[apkelly01]

OP I can see why you’re upset and I would be too. He might not have had many years left anyway and I rarely judge anyone that makes that decision, whatever their motives, but to not discuss it with you is appalling. You should have been part of the decision If you were the joint

My mare started developing melanomas when she was about 6 or 7, she's now 15. Her melanomas are in the same place as the horse in the picture and on the temporomandibular joint. She fractured her skull in two places last summer and was subsequently sent to the hospital for a CT scan to check for neurological damage. There was absolutely nothing in her brain that shouldn't have been there I was expecting it but zilch. It gave me huge comfort.

Eta: Not exactly helpful images because I’ve drawn all over them but her melanomas are very obvious and large but completely harmless as it stands

Your girl sounds like Bandit. I'm glad she's doing well, I wish for you to have more time with her. One of the many vets said to have him scanned, just to see what's affected. I wished I'd done that now. But others said to monitor. I've attached a picture taken about last year. I don't think it was near his brain, its was low on his jaw.

 

[apkelly01]

Thanks again for all your replies. I'm devastated and heartbroken but nothing's going to bring him back. I just feel a huge sense of injustice for him. I have a beef with my sister as we wouldn't be here if she just took responsibility for his care and not take the easy way out. If she had looked at other alternatives instead of jumping straight to euthanasia, and all those alternatives were a no go, then I would have reluctantly agreed. I was hoping that the vet may have refused to do it as it was a convenience euthanasia and advised her on other options. I'll look into what happened to the passport.

Anyway, what's done is done and I'll miss him. I'll concentrate on his mum and enjoying what time I've left with her.

Many thanks again and give your horses hugs when you see them ❤

 

[KrujaaLass]

same thing happened at my yard. Horse fine when taken on holiday and hacking, schooling, but deemed dangerous when it became an inconvenience when owners couldn’t be bothered

 

[irishdraft]

A very sad tale OP and definitely not a nice way to be treated by your sister. I would be very upset and angry if this had happened to me

 

[Pinkvboots]

I am a bit suspicious of this purely because your sister has said the vet took the passport, vets or knacker men don't take passports, do you think she may have sold him or passed him on to someone else?

It's a horrible situation to be in but ultimately the horse is in her care and possession so the choice is hers to make unfortunately, I have been in a similar situation where I ended up with a family members horse, when that horse became ill they thought they had the right to tell me what to do but they gave up that right when they stopped caring and paying for that horse.

 

[OldNag]

^^^ this. Vets do not take passports- they never have for me.
I don't think your sister is telling you the whole truth.
What a horribly sad situation for you.

 

[Leah3horses]

If I were in your unenviable situation, I'd pop into the vets who euthanised him, just to double check what your mercenary sister has told you is true, and to try to get some sense of closure for yourself. Melanomas affect individual horses in totally different ways, and it is rare that they do invade the brain ...source: I'm a vet nurse. Horses can have many melanomas for many years without any suffering at all, and die at a great age from something unrelated. Other horses can be unlucky enough to suffer with melanomas in places that affect their quality of life quickly ( eyes, nostrils, anus etc), but it's rare. I'm so sorry for your situation. I hope you can get closure for yourself. Explain the situation in brief to the vet receptionist, if experienced she will be familiar with this kind of request. There is nothing legally or ethically preventing them from confirming that he was definitely PTS, for your peace of mind. X