Quiet hands vs conversation down the reins

[MikB]

Hi!

I have been riding for 6 years as an adult and have had various teachers & horses along the way.

I recently started jumping and rather than just jumping fallen trees out hacking, am looking at combinations and small courses in the school.

I currently have two teachers - one who is an eventer and one who is a professional show jumper. My eventing teacher is telling me to have a “constant conversation down the reins” whereas my show jumping teacher is saying to use lots of leg and have very still hands and allow to horse to seek the contact.

I am not a “natural” rider so I am developing feel through having lessons. I understand that every horse is different and every rider is different, but I feel confused as to whether I should be developing still & soft contact or a “conversation down the reins” Advice would be most welcome!

 

[DiNozzo]

Your reins are there to give some instruction to the horse.

To do that, there needs to be some level of conversation.

Are you riding the same horse with each instructor? It might be that one horse needs more instruction than the other.

For some horses, a still and soft contact is enough instruction. A bit like sat navs. If you drive, are you someone who is happy to be told 'Take the next right and then it's the third exit', or do you need to be told 'turn left now... and now at this roundabout take the third exit'? Horses are the same.

Of course, depending on what you're working on, it might just be that your instructors are focussing on different aspects of your riding and thats why you're getting different responses!

 

[MikB]

Hi DiNozzo,

I am riding two different horses - which I am sure complicates things!

I do feel that my hands have become busier & more active with my eventer teacher but maybe it is because this horse needs more “conversation”? He is a 17-years old ISH. The other horse that I ride is a 5-year old off the track TB, who I have just started jumping. My jumping teacher says that my hands are too busy and that they need to be still. If I am too busy she throws her head in the air. Basically for her it’s leg, leg and more leg and a soft stretchy contact.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Well the showjumper is certainly telling you what she thinks! How does the eventer react to your busy hands?

 

[windand rain]

You should be having a whispered conversation with both. Your hands are there for support and instruction not for telling and yelling but as PS says some horses listen better than others or are tuned in or out more so you need to read each horse what is right for one may not be right for another. It is not the horses but you who must adapt to their need to hear

 

[ihatework]

I definitely can get confusing, especially on different types of horse and with different instructors and disciplines.

It’s also difficult to know how to respond over the internet as things can easily get misinterpreted.

My take on this is the reins are an aid, so there has to be a certain level of communication going down the rein. You shouldn’t be so still 100% of the time that you become unheard/ineffective. But if we are talking a sliding grey scale with black being very busy and white being completely still then I’d definitely be aiming for light grey.

I have had a couple of pure dressage riders train me before who were adamant you needed to be vibrating the rein, subtlety, pretty much constantly. Those trainers weren’t for me.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have had a couple of pure dressage riders train me before who were adamant you needed to be vibrating the rein, subtlety, pretty much constantly. Those trainers weren’t for me.

If I were a horse, I should think that would drive me mad! I also think I would stop taking any notice of the reins at all.

 

[MikB]

Well the showjumper is certainly telling you what she thinks! How does the eventer react to your busy hands?

Yes my showjumping teacher was direct lol!
It was our first session together on the TB mare I have only hacked out 4 times. She apparently hasn’t been in the school for a while and is very on the forehand having been a racehorse. The show jumper was onto me straight away saying that my hands were too busy and gave me a crop to hold across the reins. He also gave me an indication of the kind of feel I should be looking for - a lot less than my ISH chap. The TB mare did start to soften and I was using lots of leg literally on every stride.

My other share - the 17-year old ISH on the other hand, has been well schooled and knows a trick or two! My eventer teacher, has said that she constantly vibrates down the reins to stop him from locking in his neck and tucking his chin under. She also uses lots of leg to keep impulsion. I have ridden the ISH for longer and know him better. I now feel however, that my hands have become much busier than they were before! I hadn’t noticed until riding the TB mare last night.

The eventing teacher has commented on how I can fix my elbows but seems to encourage lots of conversation down the reins. Perhaps, in both circumstances I need to use more leg, riding into a contact - it’s just whether now I need to find a half way house with the vibrating!

Do feel rather confused!

 

[MikB]

I definitely can get confusing, especially on different types of horse and with different instructors and disciplines.

It’s also difficult to know how to respond over the internet as things can easily get misinterpreted.

My take on this is the reins are an aid, so there has to be a certain level of communication going down the rein. You shouldn’t be so still 100% of the time that you become unheard/ineffective. But if we are talking a sliding grey scale with black being very busy and white being completely still then I’d definitely be aiming for light grey.

I have had a couple of pure dressage riders train me before who were adamant you needed to be vibrating the rein, subtlety, pretty much constantly. Those trainers weren’t for me.

Is this more specifically a dressage thing? How differently do dressage, eventing and showjumping riders ride? I think it’s tricky wanting to be a good all rounder lol!

 

[Roxylola]

Sounds more like you just need to be better at adapting your riding to the horse at the time. By the sound of it you could do with being tidier in general to give a better picture as well.

Any conversation should always be at the lowest volume you can possibly have it and still be heard; appropriate to the age, level of education etc of all participants and we should listen and observe at least twice as much as we talk.

 

[MikB]

Sounds more like you just need to be better at adapting your riding to the horse at the time. By the sound of it you could do with being tidier in general to give a better picture as well.

Any conversation should always be at the lowest volume you can possibly have it and still be heard; appropriate to the age, level of education etc of all participants and we should listen and observe at least twice as much as we talk.

Yes I agree. Learning to feel & adapt to new horses is quite a skill - something I am now trying to develop - not just in a happy hack kind of way. I am pretty tidy actually, and have an independent seat which I’ve worked hard on. Just seem to have become a little too focused on the front end. There are also a ton of teachers out there some of which have strong opinions. It’s hard being a rider who is open and willing to learn, to not get too attached to one approach. This is why developing feel is so important - and so hard for someone riding later in life.

 

[milliepops]

i think that the fact that you have 2 very different horses and 2 instructors who have different sounding "methods" is the source of the confusion , though I agree with IHW that it can be hard to understand exactly what you're getting at without seeing something in person or video.

do both teachers see both horses? it's not clear from your OP. if not it would be interesting to see what they made of the other one.

being open to different ideas as a rider is important but i think there's a big argument for finding one system that works while you learn your craft, and then adding in complementary ideas, at least for a while.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Yes my showjumping teacher was direct lol!
It was our first session together on the TB mare I have only hacked out 4 times. She apparently hasn’t been in the school for a while and is very on the forehand having been a racehorse. The show jumper was onto me straight away saying that my hands were too busy and gave me a crop to hold across the reins. He also gave me an indication of the kind of feel I should be looking for - a lot less than my ISH chap. The TB mare did start to soften and I was using lots of leg literally on every stride.

My other share - the 17-year old ISH on the other hand, has been well schooled and knows a trick or two! My eventer teacher, has said that she constantly vibrates down the reins to stop him from locking in his neck and tucking his chin under. She also uses lots of leg to keep impulsion. I have ridden the ISH for longer and know him better. I now feel however, that my hands have become much busier than they were before! I hadn’t noticed until riding the TB mare last night.

The eventing teacher has commented on how I can fix my elbows but seems to encourage lots of conversation down the reins. Perhaps, in both circumstances I need to use more leg, riding into a contact - it’s just whether now I need to find a half way house with the vibrating!

Do feel rather confused!

Sorry I meant the horse, not the trainer! always best to be guided by the horse, ime.

It sounds to me as you probably need to make more use of your legs on both horses.

 

[MikB]

Perhaps this is me starting to find an approach that works best for me?

Both teachers are independent of each other so they don’t see both horses - would be an interesting idea though.

It’s making me wonder how much of a difference there is in riding styles between the disciplines as well as between riding different types of horses. It’s a huge world out there, so I need to learn how to navigate my own path it seems!

 

[MikB]

Sorry I meant the horse, not the trainer! always best to be guided by the horse, ime.

It sounds to me as you probably need to make more use of your legs on both horses.

? Ahh good advice - be guided by the horse and not the trainer....

 

[MikB]

Sorry I meant the horse, not the trainer! always best to be guided by the horse, ime.

It sounds to me as you probably need to make more use of your legs on both horses.

100% to me using more leg!

 

[scats]

I have a friend who had 2 instructors for different disciplines and she found their advice just too conflicting. Both equally successful in their disciplines, but their methods were too confusing for my friend to use with one horse. Sounds like a similar situation here.

Horses are all different and their prior experiences often govern how they react to different types of contact. Personally, I like a steady and consistent contact. I like to feel the horse down the rein and not have moments when they ‘disappear’. I can’t stand seeing people fiddling, sponging, vibrating the rein. I had a lesson from a pro rider who was very head focused and advised me to ride like this and my horse hated it. It seems to work for some people but I don’t like the feel and my horses prefer to have a contact that can take forwards. Fiddling tends to make a lot of horses drop behind the contact, in my opinion. People mistakenly perceive this as lightness and the Horse being in self-carriage when it’s quite the opposite.

I can have a conversation down a consistent contact, but it’s quite hard to explain. So much of riding really is in feel.

 

[LEC]

Both are not wrong. The way I now look at it is instead to think about my elbows. Are your elbows light, soft and elastic? this will have a far bigger impact on it all than you think. So, if the horse feels like they are sitting on the bit and slightly solid then a hand which is not set and has moving fingers to retain the softness is helpful. But this should primarily be on turns/corners. On the last 5 strides the hand should be still and soft and why its useful to think about elbows instead. The work should have been done before the jump.
The sjer is not wrong about the horse seeking the contact. A consistent approach saying hi, i am here with your hands and and riding the horse into the contact and thinking about an active hind leg will work. It will also lift the horse off the forehand and make sure you keep the canter. Personally this method is a lot more consistent for the horse and less variables for the rider to screw up but it will depend on the horse and the rider's ability.

 

[MikB]

For sure - I know that I tend to lock my elbows so this is an ongoing thing for me. Being able to release, give, be elastic but keep a steady contact is such an art and so much is on feel.

I was just taken aback by the showjumping teacher saying that my hands should be still - he didn’t agree with there being any conversation down the reins at all. Just lots of leg and still, soft hands. I like this idea actually.

He also wanted my hands to be above the horse’s withers so I wonder now how I keep a subtle bend in my elbows whist having my hands further forward than where I have been holding them! When I think of relaxing and having a slight bend in my elbows, my reins tend to come too far back.

I enjoy riding so much and especially the detail and what a craft it is. Having only bombed around the field on ponies as a kid, I am motivated to learn how to ride elegantly with no faff, in harmony with a feel for the horse. Easier said than done but that’s the addiction.....

 

[milliepops]

it's also a lifelong project!

If you aren't sure how to keep your elbows bent but your hands forward over the withers then I think you need to ask the SJ trainer to show you what he wants you to do, exactly, so you aren't left scratching your head over it.

I think I'd consider taking both horses to one trainer for a while and see how it went.

 

[IrishMilo]

I think of my hands and elbows as shock absorbers to the mouth, so in that sense they are constantly moving to a degree which you probably can't even see unless you look really closely. The horse's mouth should feel soft in your hands no matter how short your contact is - there shouldn't be jerky movements from the bit. For me the easiest thing to visualise is that my arms are a piece of firm elastic - the contact should always be there but it should be consistent and flexible.

 

[oldie48]

Surely you ride the horse according to what you feel? For me that is what makes the difference between a really good rider and a not so good rider. What you feel when you first get on and start to warm up is often very different to how the horse feels at the end of a session, otherwise what is the point in schooling ? If the horse is in self carriage, even in the rein and coming through properly from behind, then it's possible to have very quiet hands but you still need to have a contact so you can keep the horse soft through transitions. etc and make adjustments. I am absolutely no expert but I have watched lots of lovely horses being ridden by extremely competent riders and although they may give the impression of doing very little with their hands they are doing something even if it's just pushing the hands forward slightly, or making a small flexion to soften the neck or a squeeze of the outside rein to straighten the horse. Sometimes you need to be quite "agricultural" to get a horse to flex or stop leaning, the trick is to make the aid clear and quick,soften your hand as soon as the horse softens to your aid rather than constantly nagging. I know this as it's a bad habit of mine!

 

[daffy44]

I do think two different methods can be quite hard to reconcile with each other when you are in the earlier stages of learning, its much easier to take one method and stick with it until you reach a certain level of competence.

When I read the title of this thread, I just thought they are both the same thing, I dont see it as a conflict, but I think maybe the conflict comes in how the two different trainers are approaching things, probably due to the two different needs of the respective horses. A still, soft hand is the ideal, but a hand that appears to be still is constantly in motion because the horse is in constant motion. As others have said, the hand cant be taken in isolation, if your shoulders are down, with bent, soft elbows then your whole arm is gently following the motion of the horse and the hand just follows. I think you need a conversation with your horse, but its through your entire body, and your hands can be making tiny adjustments that your horse can feel, but are not always visible, so yes to the conversation, and yes to the still soft hands.

 

[Red-1]

To me, you use your reins when you have something to say, and they are quiet when the can be.

I would not constantly vibrate, as this would be like white noise to the horse after a while.

If all is well, you sly ride into a soft contact. If the horse is rude, you use the rein, until he complies, whereupon the rein become soft again. That is how he knows he has done right.

I do agree with keeping giving requests, to make sure the horse is really there and listening. So, asking for some bend, or some collection, or whatever. But that is very different to a constant vibrate, or indeed a constant left-right-left-right, because you are asking for SOMETHING and then able to be quiet again as soon as you get it.

The more experienced and established the horse, the left you have to issue spurious requests, as they can keep consistent.

 

[[139672]]

Richard Maxwell has discussed this on his FB page before now. It was very interesting. You may be able to find it if you like his FB page.

 

[paddi22]

the definition of 'a conversation down the reins' is so vague though. for some trainers it probably means constant sponging, where for others it might just mean not dropping contact and letting the reins go loopy. That's what I find very odd about some teaching, the descriptions can be so vague and easily misinterpreted.

I only realised a few years ago how much I was misunderstanding stuff at some clinics. now of someone gives a description like that I interrogate them to make sure I understand what they mean.