teapot
Well-Known Member
Kentucky Derby overshadowed by horse deaths
Mage wins the 149th Kentucky Derby as America's most celebrated race is overshadowed by the death of seven horses in the build-up.
www.bbc.co.uk
Racing across the pond - Kentucky
- Thread starter teapot
- Start date
stangs
Well-Known Member
Is it bad if I say I'm not surprised? A friend of mine works in the US racing industry, and she's always saying that the US and Canada are the worst countries in the world for racehorse welfare, breakdowns and deaths. Allegedly, trainers there prioritise tradition over modern sports science when training, whereas other countries' trainers (especially Japan) take advantage of the science and so have better results and fewer breakdowns.
There's also a been a couple scathing opinion pieces in the Guardian recently, by an ex-exercise rider:
There's also a been a couple scathing opinion pieces in the Guardian recently, by an ex-exercise rider:
What do horses feel at the Kentucky Derby? Mostly fear and pain
US audiences will be sold a tale of horses battling for glory and adulation at Churchill Downs. But the actual story is far more disturbing
www.theguardian.com
Another weekend of death at the Kentucky Derby but don’t expect change
There is no other mainstream sport where carnage and indifference occur so regularly – and are as tolerated
www.theguardian.com
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Wonder if the breakdowns in America are linked to the amount of drugs (which are not legal here) are using for racing over there .. their losses on the flat seem much higher than here..
Elf On A Shelf
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Many don't ever train on anything other than the oval racetracks so they never go on any other surface.
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
That's really interesting, suppose that's why outriders are out during exercise. Isn't it like that in Australia too? Or just USA?
Elf On A Shelf
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Aussies go out to the beach a bit too so they do sometimes do different things. But they are mostly track based too but they don't race on dirt just turf I think.
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
All the necropsy reports will be available on completion on the KHRC website, in a lot of ways the US is more transparent regarding horse injuries and deaths than the UK.
Within the US, horses are based at the track and trained, each track has set meets so horses then ship out to the next track. Horses can ship in for big races but it’s more normal to based at one track.Some larger tracks will have a separate training track (eg: Belmont, NY).
The rules on medication has been tightened up considerably with the introduction of the Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority (HISA). Previously a lot of states had different rules regarding medication, horse shoes etc. The purpose of HISA is to provide an overarching set of regulations across the different states. Unlike with the BHA, each state has an independent governing body than regulates the industry, hence the intro of HISA to try to create consistent regulations. The track surface can be tested by an independent body as well.
Within the US, horses are based at the track and trained, each track has set meets so horses then ship out to the next track. Horses can ship in for big races but it’s more normal to based at one track.Some larger tracks will have a separate training track (eg: Belmont, NY).
The rules on medication has been tightened up considerably with the introduction of the Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority (HISA). Previously a lot of states had different rules regarding medication, horse shoes etc. The purpose of HISA is to provide an overarching set of regulations across the different states. Unlike with the BHA, each state has an independent governing body than regulates the industry, hence the intro of HISA to try to create consistent regulations. The track surface can be tested by an independent body as well.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Are they still using steroids on their horses? When American horses come to race here they seem much more heavy tipped than ours and I assumed it was steroids. What drugs do they use now?
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
This is a full list of HISA banned drugs, a lot with anabolic actions etc. I had a quick look through the controlled substance list and I couldn’t see any anabolic steroids at all. They are also controlling the administration of Biphosphonates.
Horses can still race on Lasix (Furosemide) which is administered 4 hours pre-race. Not all trainers use and some racing commissions have tighten up the use of it considerable including banning it in 2 year old races and in the last two runners of the Breeders Cup.
There are a few states that permit horses to run having been administered Bute within 48 hours but its very rare and those states tend to be the bottom end of racing (eg: have a county fair with racing once a year).
Horses can still race on Lasix (Furosemide) which is administered 4 hours pre-race. Not all trainers use and some racing commissions have tighten up the use of it considerable including banning it in 2 year old races and in the last two runners of the Breeders Cup.
There are a few states that permit horses to run having been administered Bute within 48 hours but its very rare and those states tend to be the bottom end of racing (eg: have a county fair with racing once a year).
Elf On A Shelf
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The Australian horses look the same. They don't often come over and if they do it isn't for long. But they are always built like bulls.
Elf On A Shelf
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They get the very best of nutrition, veterinary care, body care, work regime to get them and keep them fit all worked out for them by professionals. What many lack is the mental health care. Horses need time to be horses and whilst a lot more people are seeing this and adapting to it by giving them more turnout - even if it is in individual paddocks - many professional outfits across all equine sports still do not. They don't want to turn out for fear of the horse hurting itself. But they then risk losing the brain of the horse. They shut down and become institutionalised. The world bleets about human mental health but they don't always consider the animals.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
Like many people who watch racing on TV, I have noticed more horses breaking down on the flat while galloping, it used to be vanishingly rare, now not so much unfortunately, although less this year I think than the previous few seasons.
I raised this question at a trainer's open day and wondered if he might not want to answer me. In reply he said that regulations concerning drugs and medication allowed while training vary between different countries and it is impossible to know what has been given to the horses and whether they are being produced to sell on, hence a bit of "form" helps and they might be racing when it would be better to give them more time to mature. He had bought two horses from the same yard in France and both had suffered a broken leg on the gallops, and needless to say he would not be buying any more from that source. Also he turns his horses out daily after their morning exercise, except in the direst days in winter, so they have plenty of leg stretch and natural exercise time.
I honestly think that the problem in the USA is long standing and is due to a combination of what medication is allowed, or has been in the past and the effects on breeding stock, so in effect there is a long line of racehorses that have come from basically unsound animals that has been masked by drugs not allowed in the UK. There have also been studies about a genetic fault that affects the spine. So it is a long, long story and each individual accident might be seen as unfortunate and freak, when the numbers keep rising you have got to start wondering what is at the back of it.
I raised this question at a trainer's open day and wondered if he might not want to answer me. In reply he said that regulations concerning drugs and medication allowed while training vary between different countries and it is impossible to know what has been given to the horses and whether they are being produced to sell on, hence a bit of "form" helps and they might be racing when it would be better to give them more time to mature. He had bought two horses from the same yard in France and both had suffered a broken leg on the gallops, and needless to say he would not be buying any more from that source. Also he turns his horses out daily after their morning exercise, except in the direst days in winter, so they have plenty of leg stretch and natural exercise time.
I honestly think that the problem in the USA is long standing and is due to a combination of what medication is allowed, or has been in the past and the effects on breeding stock, so in effect there is a long line of racehorses that have come from basically unsound animals that has been masked by drugs not allowed in the UK. There have also been studies about a genetic fault that affects the spine. So it is a long, long story and each individual accident might be seen as unfortunate and freak, when the numbers keep rising you have got to start wondering what is at the back of it.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
You can understand why trainers wouldn't want to turn out a lot of colts together, although do they get turn out in the winter after the flat season has ended?
Elf On A Shelf
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No. Once colts come in as foals/yearlings for the sales they don't get turned out in company again generally and most certainly not in herds. We turn our colts out with one of our old gelding companions. A few yards now have turnout paddocks connected to the horses stable - just another stable/double stable length area of all weather for them to walk in and out of. But colts rarely get that privilege unless they are super dead quiet. Some go home to studs but most are kept in light work jogging out or lobbing on their "holidays" so they aren't cooped up in a box 24/7.
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
Alot of yards especially in Newmarket are concrete jungles, I follow many flats, like Amy Murphy, John Berry, Phillips Mcphantee (spelt wrong sorry) and more who turn out but so many of them aren't. It also seems to be a common trope of having more stables than acres for the racing yards for sale?
Pond House is for sale, 675k I believe and that has a patch of grass in the centre and that's about it. Oh wait.. and a patch of grass next to the walker. See here - https://www.equestrianproperty4sale.com/property-for-sale-church-lane-newmarket-cb8 and 1.5 acres in NM are for sale with planning permission of 60 boxes.
Do you think BHA should look into turning out or minimal turnout spacing requirements imo in their trainers hand book they require someone to live on site (or at least heavily recommend it..). Surely as an owner and a trainer, you'd accept a risk that these are animals and injury within the field is a thing? They sure as hell use that as an argument when talking about racecourse deaths. Not sure how doable you can actually regulate turning out but like Pond House, some yards don't have anywhere for turnout in Newmarket..
Do you think if horses mental health was taking into account, would we see better impact on the horses?
Sorry for the tangent!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
First, a Run for the Roses. Then, a Dash to the Breeding Shed. (Published 2023)
Enjoy today’s top racehorses while you can. It won’t be long before they quit racing and go where the real money is.
www.nytimes.com
This article popped up on the NYT last week. He doesn't say it outright, but he implies -- and it seems obvious -- that if the colts who wind up being the most prolific sires run in and do well at only a handful of G1 races before they are whisked off to the breeding shed, then you're not breeding for toughness or longevity anymore. Just speed as a 2/3 year old. You're breeding for breeding, not for racing.
The writer of the article says that isn't ideal for racing fans (who are diminishing in number) because they can't follow a horse through anything resembling a career, but to me, it seems worse for the thoroughbred as a breed when horses whose longterm soundness is unknown are siring many, many foals.
Oh, yeah, and the Lasix.
Does flat racing over here follow more or less the same model (minus the Lasix... I know that's banned)?
I've been following the racing chat on COTH, and according to people 'in the know,' HISA is pretty toothless 'cause racing is governed by the states, and, well, state's rights is a Thing when you have an industry deeply financially invested in not cleaning its own house.
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
Here we have hardly any claiming and selling races, you might get the odd one on a race card but never almost a whole race card worth like they have in the States. Between the maiden claims, allowance optional claims and all the different tags they can run for in the States, it all gets a bit confusing when you first start getting involved!
I think that’s one of the biggest issues, is the frequency these horses can change hands and as they drop lower and lower through the claiming ranks, they end up slipping through the cracks. Not to mention previously issues with passing on vet notes to the new trainer. They had issues with that at the NYRA tracks, which resulted in new rule implementation.
For those on here who may not have seen a US card, here’s the racing today at Parx, PA. The tags (purchase price) range from anything from $5,000-$25,000. Often in the allowance optional claim, where trainers can chose to race their horse for a tag, you can see higher prices. The highest I’ve seen is $75,000, lowest $2,000.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
How exactly does a claiming race work? I know they are the lowest level of racing in the US (I've read Jane Smiley's Horse Heaven) but I don't quite follow the ownership transfer mechanics.
If I am a racehorse owner, and I run my horse in a claiming race, then you, another racehorse owner, can take my horse at the end? Do you pay me more the horse? Does it come out of the purse? Can you only claim one which has won or placed? Why would anyone run a horse they liked in a claimer??
If I am a racehorse owner, and I run my horse in a claiming race, then you, another racehorse owner, can take my horse at the end? Do you pay me more the horse? Does it come out of the purse? Can you only claim one which has won or placed? Why would anyone run a horse they liked in a claimer??
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
Ultimately, yes I can buy the horse from you. The horse literally gets a given a tag for the bridle after the race to show it has been claimed and then it’s moved onto the new barn (hence the issues with passing on vet records). But the person has to put the claim in the for horse before the race, so even if the horse runs terribly, it’s now your horse (unless it’s lame or fails a drug test , then the claim gets voided and it returned to the trainer).
If more than one person applies to claim the same horse, the new owner is selected by a random number ballot.
As the owner, you would get whatever the horse wins in that race as well as the claim price.
Reasons for running in claimed include off-loading a horse they don’t want anymore, if you place your horse in the right claiming race, it’s can be very lucrative. If you run horses in the more valuable claimers they are less likely to get claimed from you. It also produces competitive handicaps in races for betting purposes. Some horses run their whole lives in claimers and rarely change trainers.
Photo of a claim tag (from Google)
ETA: what I’ve written applies to the US claiming races only. The BHA has different guidelines.
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Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
So if you place a claim on my horse, would you then give me whatever the horse costs at the end of the race? Who decides that? Is there a list? "Horse X can be claimed for $10,000." So if my horse won, I would get the purse, plus the $10,000. And horsey goes to new owner/trainer?
Why are they less likely to be claimed in the more valuable claimers?
Why are they less likely to be claimed in the more valuable claimers?
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
So each horse is given a claiming price, sometimes different horses have different values but it would only be about a $2,000 difference.
Say you owned Ice Cold Gold who ran today at Finger Lakes, as her original owner you would get $7,595 profit ($2,959 for second placeand $5,000 for her claiming price). But she’s now moved onto her new barn.
I guess the more expensive ones don’t get claimed as often because it’s easy to flip a horse quick for a profit in the lower claiming ranks. Most owners don’t have $50,000-$75,000 to claim a horse, they’d probably rather spend that at a sale. Also the races with high claim prices tend to be the allowance or starter optional claiming races, so you don’t have to run your horse for a tag but the option is there if you did want to move the horse onto a new owner.
Say you owned Ice Cold Gold who ran today at Finger Lakes, as her original owner you would get $7,595 profit ($2,959 for second placeand $5,000 for her claiming price). But she’s now moved onto her new barn.
I guess the more expensive ones don’t get claimed as often because it’s easy to flip a horse quick for a profit in the lower claiming ranks. Most owners don’t have $50,000-$75,000 to claim a horse, they’d probably rather spend that at a sale. Also the races with high claim prices tend to be the allowance or starter optional claiming races, so you don’t have to run your horse for a tag but the option is there if you did want to move the horse onto a new owner.
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Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Does the handicapper come up with those values for the horses? Or some other track official? I guess no one is going to say their claimer is worth a million bucks.
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
The track secretary writes the condition book for the races and a lot of claiming races have other conditions attached to them such as they can’t have won more than two life time starts or they cannot have won a race within a certain about of time. From my experience, horses start off at higher prices - say £25,000 and the stay around that level if they are competitive. If not, the owner / trainer might drop them down and keep doing so until they find a level where the horse is running competitively.
For example, I followed a horse that started her career in $25,000 maiden claimers and she didn’t break her maiden until a year later when she won a $7,500 maiden claim. She finished her career running in a $3,200 claimer in a bottom end track.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Sounds sad for the horses and for the lads/lasses who look after them
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
Forte (KY Derby favourite before a vet withdrawal), failed a drug test last September in Saratoga, NY. NY Times article
(This was pre-introduction of HISA and its drug regulation program).
(This was pre-introduction of HISA and its drug regulation program).
Elf On A Shelf
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Lasix can be used in this country for training. It has a 72hour withdrawal on it so it can be used up to 3-4 days before a race but it can't be used in a race itself over here.
I would hope that in time the BHA make it mandatory for all yards to have some form of turnout paddocks - even if they are artificial surfaces - to let the horses be horses. Unfortunately that will not happen in our lifetime. It would destroy Newmarket, Middleham and Lambourn trainers as there simply isn't anywhere to turn them out regularly.
We have very few selling or claiming races over here. They have gone massively out of fashion because it suggests, and proves, your horse is at the very bottom end of the racing ladder more often than not. This isn't always the case but it is mostly.
Lucinda bought Degas Art out of a seller at Hexham for 8,000. Degas had been a Group 3 winning juvenile on the flat for Elsworth. He was bought privately for a ridiculously huge sum of £150,000 reportedly (a hell of a lot at the time when a good jumps horse would make 50-70k in the sale ring!) To go hurdling for the Wylie's and Howard Johnson. Degas won his first 3 hurdle races beating subsequent Triumph and Champion Hurdler Katchit as well as taking the scalp of Purple Moon who went on to be 2nd in the Melbourne Cup. Over the next 2 seasons chasing he lost his way big time and had cut the extendor tendon over his knee. This healed and he raced on. Until we bought him. With us he won another 4x earning a lot more than he had cost. He retired due to a fractured pastern and now lives the life of luxury keeping horses company in the field at the yard. Sometimes good horses come out of seller's. Actually GrayMo won a seller in America before he came over here. Then he promptly won his first 3 hurdle starts doing hand stands.
Sorry. Got sidetracked.
Yes. It's incredibly sad for a lot of staff who have grown up with horses in fields to not be able to turn them out. So many make their lives as enriched as they are allowed.
I would hope that in time the BHA make it mandatory for all yards to have some form of turnout paddocks - even if they are artificial surfaces - to let the horses be horses. Unfortunately that will not happen in our lifetime. It would destroy Newmarket, Middleham and Lambourn trainers as there simply isn't anywhere to turn them out regularly.
We have very few selling or claiming races over here. They have gone massively out of fashion because it suggests, and proves, your horse is at the very bottom end of the racing ladder more often than not. This isn't always the case but it is mostly.
Lucinda bought Degas Art out of a seller at Hexham for 8,000. Degas had been a Group 3 winning juvenile on the flat for Elsworth. He was bought privately for a ridiculously huge sum of £150,000 reportedly (a hell of a lot at the time when a good jumps horse would make 50-70k in the sale ring!) To go hurdling for the Wylie's and Howard Johnson. Degas won his first 3 hurdle races beating subsequent Triumph and Champion Hurdler Katchit as well as taking the scalp of Purple Moon who went on to be 2nd in the Melbourne Cup. Over the next 2 seasons chasing he lost his way big time and had cut the extendor tendon over his knee. This healed and he raced on. Until we bought him. With us he won another 4x earning a lot more than he had cost. He retired due to a fractured pastern and now lives the life of luxury keeping horses company in the field at the yard. Sometimes good horses come out of seller's. Actually GrayMo won a seller in America before he came over here. Then he promptly won his first 3 hurdle starts doing hand stands.
Sorry. Got sidetracked.
Yes. It's incredibly sad for a lot of staff who have grown up with horses in fields to not be able to turn them out. So many make their lives as enriched as they are allowed.