Rain Scald! Waaah!

J

JessandCharlie

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Hi guys,

My little baby has rain scald (or at least what Im sure is rainscald) all over her left side of her nech and shoulder, and a bit on the right aswell. They started as pea sized lumps that looked like fly bites that had come up over night. But on pull the hair back (gently) i realised that they had scabbed over and the scabs came off very easily. She must have 40-50 of these.

I'm treating this with hibiscrub and antibacterial creams etc. but my question is....

Can it make them fell unwell in themselves? As she has been a bit off recently aswell and we are trying to narrow down what it could or couldnt be
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Thankyou guys!!!!!
 
An animal that is in poor condition or feeling generally unwell can be more prone to rain scald, yes.

What does your vet say?
 
Havent had the vet out, but will give them a ring.

She is otherwise in very good condition, proper fed, rugged properly etc. I was told by someone it could make them feel off, but havent found anything else to back this up!?!
 
this little bits under the scabs look like rings, if so it could be ring worm,
if so washing in imavrol and disinfecting everything with Virkon S
 
Give her a bath using Nizeral - it can be bought from the chemist. Dilute in warm water and lather up well with a sponge or face cloth. Leave 10mins and scrape off excess. Leave to dry - repeat for a couple of days and it will go really fast.
 
the best think is wash it twice a day for a week in diluted hibi scrub to kill the bacterica then stop washing and apply aloe vera jelly jelly no creams tho coz they are to moist and cause a bredding ground again for the bacterica you can feed aloe vera as well that will help!
 
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QR
NizOral is an antifungal shampoo.
Rainscald is caused by a bacterium - dermatophilus congolensis.
Just sayin'
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Hate to break the news to you - It actually starts as a fungal infection but if scabs are picked off or are damaged THEN the bacteria gets in as a secondary infection and makes it worse.

Where I live in New Zealand we have a lot of problems with rain scald - high humidity - as soon as I notice the hairs standing on end and feel the bumps I wash with Nizeral - goes immediately. Same for mudfever and greasy heel.

Had a long chat with my equine vet about this and she admitted that they rarely see any of these in their early stages, but usually when the legs are swollen/lame (mudfever) so by then the fungus has usually died off.

One of my yearlings had mudfever this summer on both her white socks. She is rather feral and I managed to thoroughly wash the front one with Nizeral and only managed to wipe the back one once with the facecloth dipped in the mix. In a matter of days the front one cleared completely - scabs gone, the back took a few days more. After only one treatment!

When ever I've spotted any of these I've washed immediately with Nizeral - including my week old foal who got very wet the first few days of his life - gone in a matter of days.

Most important is DON'T pick off scabs - the moment you make it bleed then you let in secondary infection.
 
Rainscald is caused by the bacteria 'dermatophilus congolensis', which also causes mudfever. It is an 'actinomycetes' organism that behaves both as a bacteria and as a fungus, It is, however, definitely not a fungus but a gram positive bacteria. It gets into the skin via scratches etc and waterlogged skin. It thrives in airless conditions, which is why scabs need to be removed. Obviously, scabs need to be softened first to easy removal without damaging the skin underneath.
 
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Hate to break the news to you - It actually starts as a fungal infection but if scabs are picked off or are damaged THEN the bacteria gets in as a secondary infection and makes it worse.

Where I live in New Zealand we have a lot of problems with rain scald - high humidity - as soon as I notice the hairs standing on end and feel the bumps I wash with Nizeral - goes immediately. Same for mudfever and greasy heel.

Had a long chat with my equine vet about this and she admitted that they rarely see any of these in their early stages, but usually when the legs are swollen/lame (mudfever) so by then the fungus has usually died off.

One of my yearlings had mudfever this summer on both her white socks. She is rather feral and I managed to thoroughly wash the front one with Nizeral and only managed to wipe the back one once with the facecloth dipped in the mix. In a matter of days the front one cleared completely - scabs gone, the back took a few days more. After only one treatment!

When ever I've spotted any of these I've washed immediately with Nizeral - including my week old foal who got very wet the first few days of his life - gone in a matter of days.

Most important is DON'T pick off scabs - the moment you make it bleed then you let in secondary infection.

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You are indeed breaking the news to me, all the equine vets in the UK seem to be agreed that what we call 'rain scald' and 'mud fever' are bacterial infections caused by Dermatophilus congolensis (as lhotse says).
I'd be very interested to see your references/sources for your information? And to read the study results if poss (I'm a science geek).
Of course, to consider other possibilities, you may well suffer from problems with a fungal infection (high humidity certainly won't help) which you can treat with 'Nizoral', an anti-fungal shampoo.
And all skin diseases can appear similar, so it would be an easy thing to blur the definitions of rainscald, rain rot etc.
Of course, horses often develop their own immunity to fungal infections (so they will self cure of ringworm after a couple of months, for example) so it is possible they would do the same with your fungal disease.
I have to say, my experience of bacterial infections caused by Derm C, is that you ought to keep the horse dry and not turnout in muddy fields, remove the scabs (gently) and wash with dilute anti bacterials, drying the legs as quickly as possible afterwards. They certainly do not self heal.
For bad cases, where there is swelling and inflammation, the vet may prescribe anti-biotics to clear it up.
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They all definately respond rapidly to the Nizeral - and there is certainly no doubt that they are either, rain scald, mud fever or greasy heel, am ex Brit and they are definately the same. What I've done is to dilute the Nizeral in hot water and then use a face cloth to apply it - it lathers up really well and seems to break down the scabs so they come off easily. Not rinsing the shampoo off seems to work the best.

It is the picking off of scabs that causes all the problem. As the scabs are made up of lymph exuded from the pores of the skin forcibly removing them pulls healthy hair out of the skin - rather like having your legs waxed! These then bleed and the next thing you know the whole lot has gone wild!

The majority of NZ horses live out 24/7 - when I bought my AngloArab at weanling he had a patch of rainscald the size of a saucer on his rump plus other spread apart patches. I applied the Nizeral neat to his rump - rubbed it in and put a cover on him. A week later the whole patch peeled off leaving healthy skin underneath. There is no mark on his rump - he's now 5yrs old.

The science study is being conducted in Hobart - below is the link. They have been studying the use of a native plant and Ketaconisol cream. The cream doesn't seem to be working as well as the Ketaconizol ointment. I've written to the scientists today suggesting that they try it as a plain shampoo.
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/mudrash-154.shtml
 
My little pony had rain scald last summer in the middle of the warm, sunny weather 0.o! He had it all over his face, and no where else!? Imaverol (from my vet but avalible through some feed merchants such as spr) was the way foward. He was well looked after and fed and was not under the weather really. I used a sponge to dab Imaverol on twice a day, and it cleared up in no time!
 
Thanks for your reply, if I may summarise your points;
1. We are all discussing the same skin disease, variously known as 'rain scald, mud fever or greasy heel'.
2. You believe this disease is caused by a fungus.
3. Your link describes a study into 'pastern dermatitis' undertaken by the Uni of Tasmania.
4. It describes the use of creams containing kunzea oil, and ketoconazole used to treat two groups of horses.
5. The kunzea oil worked. The ketoconazole didn't work.
6. The kunzea oil is known to be anti-bacterial. The ketoconazole is known to be anti-fungal (NizOral has 2% of this).
7. Surely the conclusion must be that pastern dermatitis is NOT caused by a fungus, but in fact a bacterium?

I do love a good debate into horsey stuff.
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We are definately discussing the same problem.
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The researchers are treating the problem once it has developed the secondary infection - which an antibiotic will help deal with. However they are using the Ketaconizol as a cream - which I wonder is inhibiting it's function.

I have written to the scientist to discuss this very problem - that you don't get to the point of the skin needing antibiotic treatment IF the area is treated immediately with Ketaconizol. To date none of mine have progressed to the need for antibiotics, all mine have white socks in varying numbers! - I've used the Nizeral immediately I've noticed the slightly raised hairs and the bumps. It seems to break down the scabs and within days the problem has gone.

I've been using it now for about 6 years - both on my own horses and also the racehorses that come in from their holidays covered in rain scald. All have responded dramatically especially if no-one has tried to force the scabs off.

I've recommended Nizeral to many people now - through forums worldwide and getting many replies back as to how good it works.

I'll post the reply from the University should I get one!
 
Thanks for your post and PM, Tnavas. However I still have a number of unresolved questions.
Firstly, if rainscald is caused by a fungal infection, why has it never been identified scientifically, through skin scrapings?
Secondly, could your rainscald affected animals be self-healing, as horses will do from ringworm, a fungus?
Thirdly, if Nizoral is effective in treating rainscald, what makes you certain that it is the 2% Ketoconizole that is the active ingredient - after all, soaps and shampoos have antimicrobial, antibacterial properties...that's why we use them.
Fourthly, why would cream with the same percentage of active ingredient prove ineffective? Especially as the cream with the kunzea oil proved very effective?
Questions, questions!
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Firstly, if rainscald is caused by a fungal infection, why has it never been identified scientifically, through skin scrapings?

I believe this could be because by the time the vets see it it has gone beyond the fungal stage and into the bacterial infection stage. Owner has washed and picked at scabs making leg bleed, leg swells and horse goes lame - vet called in.

Secondly, could your rainscald affected animals be self-healing, as horses will do from ringworm, a fungus?

Seen this in varying degrees from a few spots to the whole back, neck and ears covered in lumps and lymph. Possibly with some horses it could be self limiting but I've seen and dealt with too many for this to be the case.

Thirdly, if Nizoral is effective in treating rainscald, what makes you certain that it is the 2% Ketoconizole that is the active ingredient.

Thats all thats in it and no other shampoo seems to be as effective - not even Vetadine - I first used it on me as I had dandruff and tender scabby spots in my hair - sorry gross! also would itch like hell. Use the Nizeral and all fine again. So tried it on a horse at work with four white socks covered in mudfever and not been touched. First wash and some scabs melted off, washed again the second day - more came away - within a week horse scab free with healthy skin underneath. Same horse had previous history of mudfever, lameness and swollen legs with traditional treatment. Continued to use it on all the horses with mudfever - racing yard with average of 120 horses in training at any one time. Same results on all horses it's used on.

Fourthly, why would cream with the same percentage of active ingredient prove ineffective? Especially as the cream with the kunzea oil proved very effective?

I wondered if the carrier cream may have reduced the effect of the Ketaconizol - whereas th eNizerol shampoo is basically Ketaconizol and water.

I guess it all boils down to the effect I've seen on the number of horses I've treated. I'd really love to do my own research on it as it seems to be one of those things - especially here in NZ that crops up all the time.
 
I think I'll believe my (very experienced) horse vet who says that rainscald/mudfever etc is caused by a bacteria with fungal imitating properties.
 
<font color="blue">Here goes - I hope you are braced for a lengthy one.
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Firstly, if rainscald is caused by a fungal infection, why has it never been identified scientifically, through skin scrapings?

I believe this could be because by the time the vets see it it has gone beyond the fungal stage and into the bacterial infection stage. Owner has washed and picked at scabs making leg bleed, leg swells and horse goes lame - vet called in.
<font color="blue">No, scientific studies into causes of disease are not undertaken on an ad-hoc basis like this. Research involves studying all stages of the disease, so a fungal origin would have been detected. </font>
Secondly, could your rainscald affected animals be self-healing, as horses will do from ringworm, a fungus?

Seen this in varying degrees from a few spots to the whole back, neck and ears covered in lumps and lymph. Possibly with some horses it could be self limiting but I've seen and dealt with too many for this to be the case.
<font color="blue">But you haven't undertaken a proper RCT, have you - with any controls. </font>
Thirdly, if Nizoral is effective in treating rainscald, what makes you certain that it is the 2% Ketoconizole that is the active ingredient.

Thats all thats in it and no other shampoo seems to be as effective - not even Vetadine - I first used it on me as I had dandruff and tender scabby spots in my hair - sorry gross! also would itch like hell. Use the Nizeral and all fine again. So tried it on a horse at work with four white socks covered in mudfever and not been touched. First wash and some scabs melted off, washed again the second day - more came away - within a week horse scab free with healthy skin underneath. Same horse had previous history of mudfever, lameness and swollen legs with traditional treatment. Continued to use it on all the horses with mudfever - racing yard with average of 120 horses in training at any one time. Same results on all horses it's used on.
<font color="blue">Nizoral has a lot of other ingredients, and will have antimicrobial and antibacterial properties, so this isn't true. My point was that the other ingredients could be antibacterial - the anti-fungal component being irrelevant. </font>
Fourthly, why would cream with the same percentage of active ingredient prove ineffective? Especially as the cream with the kunzea oil proved very effective?

I wondered if the carrier cream may have reduced the effect of the Ketaconizol - whereas th eNizerol shampoo is basically Ketaconizol and water.
<font color="blue">Both cream and shampoo have the same 2% Ketoconizole, so that is incorrect. And both control and study groups in the link you gave shared the same base cream, so that is irrelevant. </font>
I guess it all boils down to the effect I've seen on the number of horses I've treated. I'd really love to do my own research on it as it seems to be one of those things - especially here in NZ that crops up all the time.

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<font color="blue"> I think your experiences fall under the category of 'anecdotal' and perhaps, partly the 'placebo' effect. I'm afraid I agree with lhotse - RCTs rule!
And to the OP - if in doubt get your vet.
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I think bottom line in all this debates is, though - don't allow your horse to get rain scald in the first place..................
 
Amy May - unfortunately not so easy when you live in an area that is high humidity and one overnight rain can set it off. My five day old foal got it - one wash with the Nizeral dealt with it. Only way to stop rainscald is to cover the horse - which I only do if they get it - mine are all youngsters and I prefer not to rug them.

Re cream - it is possible that the carrier could cause the ketaconisol not to be as effective. Creams are used to reduce the effect of some drugs.

I've not had the vet to treat my horses for any of these problems - 40 odd years of experience and 6 years of using Nizeral and I've never needed to get the vet for any further treatment. It's just worked on all the horses I've used it on.

It's been interesting having this discussion. What originally made me think it was fungal was that one of my horses came down with mudfever really badly when I moved north to Waikato from Canterbury, Waikato is very green and humid, while Canterbury goes from freezing cold to high dry temperatures. One of the grasses in the area is called Paspalum it develops a fungal growth and the cases of greasy heel and mudfever all start around the same time as the Paspalum is seeding.
 
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I think bottom line in all this debates is, though - don't allow your horse to get rain scald in the first place..................

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Agree - I always think rainscald in particular is a sign of bad management.
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My three live out all year (including a grey with three white legs) and never have a problem...
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All very well to say that these are problems of poor management - they aren't - my foal only a few days old got rain scald - he got rained on overnight - summer - high humidity = fungal infection. Same for mudfever and greasy heel - It springs itself on you. Some horses seem to be more susceptable to it - some never get it. What is important is to treat it fast the moment you see it.
 
Well I h ave received a reply to the email I sent to University of Tasmania

From: "Christian Narkowicz" &lt;C.Narkowicz@utas.edu.au&gt;
To: "Evelyn Williamson" &lt;e.williamson@actrix.co.nz&gt;
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: inquiry from school website - personal detail page


Hi Evelyn

Thanks so much for your comments. We also suspected that the underlying infection was a fungal one - hence the inclusion of ketoconazole in our "control" ointment. Perhaps the reason why our ointment was so successful was because the cases were mostly more advanced cases with an underlying Staphylococcal infection. Our active ingredient, kunzea oil, also has antifungal activity.

Is pastern dermatitis/greasy heel/mud fever (what do you mostly call it in NZ?) much of a problem over there? Are you North Island or South? I lived in Christchurch for a year - enjoyed it a lot.

Regards

Christian Narkowicz

School of Pharmacy
University of Tasmania
 
Well, that was helpful!
So they thought the underlying infection was fungal...and used Ketoconazole...which didn't work....because it is bacterial....and that's why the kunzea oil worked...although it might have been the antifungal activity of the kunzea oil?

All hail the deficit model in science communication, lol.
That scientist must have fence marks on his bum.
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Well, that was helpful!
So they thought the underlying infection was fungal...and used Ketoconazole...which didn't work....because it is bacterial....and that's why the kunzea oil worked...although it might have been the antifungal activity of the kunzea oil?

All hail the deficit model in science communication, lol.
That scientist must have fence marks on his bum.
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S
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Do read again - as they said they have only used it on advanced cases! Where bacterea and note that it is Streptacocous - not Dermatophilous!
 
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Well, that was helpful!
So they thought the underlying infection was fungal...and used Ketoconazole...which didn't work....because it is bacterial....and that's why the kunzea oil worked...although it might have been the antifungal activity of the kunzea oil?

All hail the deficit model in science communication, lol.
That scientist must have fence marks on his bum.
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S
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Do read again - as they said they have only used it on advanced cases! Where bacterea and note that it is Streptacocous - not Dermatophilous!

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I know you really want it to be a fungal infection, but you really must read more objectively.
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The scientist has not said they have only used it on advanced cases, at all, he is just suggesting a hypothesis - that 'perhaps' the success of the ointment could be attributed to 'mostly more advanced' (note no definition or quantification offered).
Note also, that he is speculating that could be a Staphyloccocal (not Strep.) infection, but not stating that as fact.
And I know you believe that the link you gave me, where someone with a greasy/scurfy legged horse, reported improvement when treated with Nizoral shampoo, but that just tells me that you didn't understand my point regarding isolating the factors (in this case ingredients in shampoos).
Grease/scurf could of course be treated beneficially with any detergent.
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