Ratting

[Acer]

Hi,
I have a mini english bull terrier who could use some ratting to satiate her fascination for small furry animals !

She is very game and i would like her to have fun and be useful. Anyone know of ratting in the surrey/kent area?

Any help appreciated

 

[RunToEarth]

Go to your nearest farm, we welcome keen ratters with open arms

 

[clipertyplop]

isnt that ilegal :shocked:

 

[buckybee]

No, because people don't think they are cute and cuddly. Makes all the difference apparently, so you can do what you want to rats (i think?).

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Killing rats with dogs is no more cruel than any other way of killing them.

As far as I'm aware poisioning rats is especially unpleasant due to the effect of the poison used which deliberately gives it a slow death so it has time to bugger of and die somewhere else, removing the problem of the smelly and unhygenic corpse.

I also understand that rats are approximately as intelligent as dogs.

If my dogs ever catch anything I normally try and get to it and stamp on its head. That seems to do the trick, although it can be a bit messy.

 

[buckybee]

Did i say it was any more cruel?

I was just pointing out that laws regarding the culling of different anaimals depends on the public perception of them. IMO anyway.

I don't understand the relivence of them having the same intelligence as dogs?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I think I was agreeing with you.

The law is not based on cruelty.

The relevance to them being of the same intelligence as dogs is that if they were dogs we would be unlikely to license poisions that would give them such a slow and agonising death.

 

[Onyxia]

Ring round some local farms/riding schools ect.Im sure they would be more then happy to have an enthusiastic ratter around!

 

[endymion]

It's based on the premise that rats are a serious pest species and need to be controlled. Foxes are not a pest species, do not pose a danger and control their own populations according to scientific evidence (I'll happily provide links to various papers on this). Anyone who compares foxes to rats in terms of both being vermin really needs to check out fox numbers compared to rat numbers in this country. Rats also pass on Weils disease to people. Then there's always the problem of killing rats. Being small wily creatures shooting really is not an option as it is with larger mammals like foxes.

In my own opinion hunting rats with dogs is very cruel but I accept that in some situations control is vital and I can't think of a better way than with dogs.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

How would you compare it to giving them a poison that is deliberately slowly acting and gives them a very long, and painfull death?

I'd have thought that research into kinder ways to kill rats than those currently adopted for millions of them each year would be a priority for animal welfare reasons.

I would be interested in these research papers. I've witnessed a fox controlling it's own population by dieing of mange but that's about all.

Wild animal populations remain healthy through predation. Leaving animals to die of starvation and disease is bad for welfare and bad for the population.

Deer are a major pest when there are too many of them. In my situation the most practicable thing to do to stop them causing damage is to chase them away with dogs. I'm hoping that chasing isn't illegal. Then I'll be getting the local stag hounds in to chase them as well.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"I can't think of a better way than with dogs"

So you accept that posioning rats is far more cruel than hunting them with dogs?

 

[wurzel]

"Foxes are not a pest species,"

In your humble opinion !!!

Are you a sheep farmer ?


"do not pose a danger"

Is that why DEFRA encourages us to use snares?

Remarkable !!!

"and control their own populations according to scientific evidence"


When they have run out of juicy lambs ?

"(I'll happily provide links to various papers on this)."

Stephen Harris?

Give me the links all the same. I will pick them to pieces.

I could do with a laugh !!

 

[endymion]

Foxes are tertiary predators, which means that they are a native species which has never been controlled by predation, even in the ancient landscape. They have been subject to mild predation by Lynx and opportunistic bear/wolf attacks but these have never been intensive enough to act as population control. The large mammals that once lived in this country took large prey, mainly deer. Chasing a fox would be a waste of time and energy for a pack of wolves.

Foxes, like all tertiary animals, control their own populations according to resources and competition. They are also very sensitive to population densities. For example, if pops are high, resources are low and the vixen will produce a small litter in responce to this. If the pops are small, resources readily available then a larger litter will be produced. In times of high pop densities cubs may stay with parents for 1 year + and refrain from producing their own offspring.

Hunting with hounds (in fact most fox hunting methods) do not reduce populations because foxes will simply produce more young in response. In fact it has been found that fox populations are hgher in areas that have hunting with hounds.

Links to follow, but be patient I'm only on a short lunch break at the mo!

 

[endymion]

Yes I do. It's not a method I like and I think anyone who enjoys watching a terrier rip rats apart has serious issues but i think it is the most humane method available to us.

But that is not to say that it is humane, just the best of a bad lot of options.

 

[endymion]

R u a sheep farmer?

Postmortems show that lamb carcasses eaten by foxes have in the vast majority of cases died from other causes such as exposure and disease. Foxes simply eat the carcasses. Live kills are very rare. It's the same bloody situation in America at the moment with wolf introductions. The government offered a compensation package for all livestock taken by wolves but found on examination that the wolves were mainly just eating the bodies of already deceased animals.

Stephen Harris is an internationally respected scientist at the pinnacle of his career. Who are u? :smirk:

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I'd basically agree with what you're saying there. What you call 'opportunistic predators' would take out weak and diseased foxes. It is this sort of opportunistic predation that we need to maintain a healthy population. In the absence of bears, wolves and lynx which would have performed this function the only thing left is the hunt. It may be far from perfect but it is the only control measure which fulfills this role. It's good to have something that takes out sick animals as they themselves suffer hugely and act to spread disease.

Personally I'm not sure that foxes need to be controlled as in their overall population reduced. That may be the case, we'd probably know if we stopped killing them. What is definitely needed is their removal from certain places where they are causing a problem and some means of picking out the sick and diseased animals.

It's all about balance. Hunts have actually acted to increase the fox population when it is too low by importing foxes and making artificial earths. Both good conservation measures.

I use bat boxes and bird boxes to boost the numbers of bats and birds around me. I also feed the birds during the winter as many others do. All good stuff. If their were no foxes around us then I'd definitely like to have a few artificial earths, although my neighbour might not approve.

My neighbour shot forty foxes last year on his 500 acre farm. No doubt he will kill a similar number this year.

I can't help but think that reduced the local population a little bit.

 

[endymion]

But if people want fox control as they claim foxes are preying on livestock then by eliminating the weak and ill (if this is indeed what hunting does - I think hounds can easily take a healthy young dog fox) a younger healthy population is created which will have a far greater effect on farming. All animals will take the easiest meal available not just the weak and old.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

But you don't think foxes have an effect on farming in fact you think they are a freind to farming, something with which, to an extent I would agree; you're mixing your arguments up to suit.

If hunting takes too many healthy foxes then it could be changed. There is little doubt that statisically hunting takes more unhealthy foxes ans so many foxes escape. A fit healthy fox will have more chance of escaping than an unheathy one.

 

[wurzel]

"R u a sheep farmer?"

Yes.

Its kind of in my blood.

"Postmortems show that lamb carcasses eaten by foxes have in the vast majority of cases died from other causes such as exposure and disease."

True. And I don't need a post mortem to tell me that. I knew that when I was 3 years old.


"Foxes simply eat the carcasses."

Untrue I am afraid.

"Live kills are very rare."

Again, untrue I am afraid. Maybe on your sheep farm, but not on mine.

"It's the same bloody situation in America at the moment with wolf introductions. The government offered a compensation package for all livestock taken by wolves but found on examination that the wolves were mainly just eating the bodies of already deceased animals. "

Fascinating, but slightly off topic.

"Stephen Harris is an internationally respected scientist at the pinnacle of his career. Who are u? :smirk:"

I am an internationally respected breeder of Exmoor horn sheep.

And I am an independent expert as well.

Stephen Harris works for LACS. He advises LACS on the welfare of deer at Barlynch.

You walk into a pub on Exmoor and do a poll. See how well respected he is. Good Luck.

It always amazes me how you townies know more about Exmoor farming than people who have been doing it for generations.

Are you an expert in everything?

Youngs Modulous?
Consanguinity of the Gulf?

 

[endymion]

That has never been proved.

I think foxes have a neglible effect on farming. I think they help crop farmers by preying on pests.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"But if people want fox control as they claim foxes are preying on livestock then by eliminating the weak and ill (if this is indeed what hunting does - I think hounds can easily take a healthy young dog fox) a younger healthy population is created which will have a far greater effect on farming. All animals will take the easiest meal available not just the weak and old"

This is what you said. Now you're saying by getting a healthy young population of foxes farming will benefit. Which is it?

 

[runaway]

Try doing a search for your local work terrier society or ratting club. They do exist and have regular meetings for the purpose of "ratting". If your dogs not done it before let her start at her own pace. It can be quite daunting for a dog at first!

 

[Hercules]

''I think foxes have a neglible effect on farming. I think they help crop farmers by preying on pests.''

So why do the vast majority of farmers support hunting and allow the hunts to cross their land? I have asked you this before, an answer would be gratefully received.

 

[endymion]

Erm, where do you get your figures from? As far as I'm aware its around a 50-50 split as far as support from farmers is concerned. Read above link - the economic insignificance of hunting with hounds - they conducted a survey which proved this. I dont pretend that farmers who dont allow the hunt on thier land do so on animal welfare grounds (although some must do), its because they dont want the disturbance. I listen to lots of complaints from farmers when im out sabbing. Very helpful and imformative some of them are too!

 

[endymion]

Giles, you do try and be smart and twisting and manipulating statements, haha! God loves a tryer, But if my oh-so-humble isnt good enough for you, try reading some of the reports ive provided and we can have an educated debate on them.