Re-backed youngster 'humping' when asked to trot

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foxy1

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Hi all

My youngster has just had 4 months off (due to snow then illness), after only being backed and ridden away for 3 months. I got on him yesterday having lunged him with tack on (lunged him with tack on for the past week) and was ok in walk but when I asked for trot his head went down and he bucked/humped for a few strides. I settled him back to walk and asked again for trot and he did it again.

It's not a full on rodeo but he is quite sharp and worried by sudden changes of balance and I think if I fell off it would really set us back a long way. I know really I need to get his head up and quietly ride him on or should I walk for a few more days..... what do people think?
 
my 5 year old did this a lot when he was first backed... he still does it sometimes now...i've put it down to him being 'cold backed' (i don't really like the term but its the best way to describe it!) so i make sure that i walk him round and make sure he's fully warmed up before trying trot or canter...
 
Thanks
Hmmm..... I hope it's not going to turn in to a habit, he didn't do it when he was first backed and ridden away!
 
it probably won't...mine has done it literally since the day he was backed... he used to do it in walk and would quite often follow through with a full on rodeo show...now its a rareity but he often humps when i first get on but doesn't follow through....:eek:
 
My young horse is very sensitive and did this when I changed his girth for a different one. Does he trot on nicely on the lunge wearing his saddle? If he was ok with this then I think I would keep going. Get his mind occupied to start in the walk, lots of circles, changes of direction and then try some very short trots, repetitively.
 
i would be inclined to go for a hack with a sensible nanny and find a nice stretch (up a hill if you can) to let him have a trot- he will be more motivated to go forwards rather then being silly if he has somewhere to go to instead of going around in a circle.

most babies seem happier out hacking to go forwards into the new pace as it can be very hard for them to see the point of schoolwork.

i also think if you stay in walk for too long you may find you are making a big deal of the trot in your own head which can set a bit of a nasty cycle going.
 
He lunges quietly with all tack on and stirrups down (but tied together) in walk trot and canter.

I know what you mean about making an issue of it in my head; there's a bit of me that's saying 'for god's sake get on with it' and another bit that is thinking 'don't make problems by rushing him'

If it was an older horse I would just pull his head up and kick on....!
 
I think its just baby stuff, esp in a school. My youngster did it a bit when we first started trot and canter, but after a while she settled and was more balanced and I was then more balanced when she did stuff and it eventually went. Now she will only buck in the field or if her saddle slips a huge amount.

Def get them hacking out quietly, in the school youve no sooner left one corner than youre at the next. Much easier to teach the faster paces initially in straight lines. I couldnt get mine to canter round corners in the school until I got her out and about cantering in straight lines when hacking.

it will be ok!
 
I agree with those who have said it is a baby horse thing...

My 4 year old does it every so often, especially if she has had a few days off work and then ridden straight away without lunging. However, hers are rather athletic and bum crunchers (because she throws you so high out of the saddle). I think one of the best things to do is to ride forwards, but I know that is easier said than done with an unbalanced baby.
 
Check the horse and your tack over first - it can't hurt and it might help. I had a horse last year to start because she was bucking and she turned out to have a small sarcoid on her midline that was raw when she came in. A girth change after a few days to heal up was all she needed.

Also, check your procedure. I'm a bit horrified how many people crank young horses' girths up right away, expecting them to "take it". It's even possible to cause muscle damage that way and it's certainly likely to start the sensitive horse off with tension that doesn't have to be there, which can easily become a habit. Obviously the girth has to be snug when you get on but there's no harm in working up to that gradually, including a little longing - including trot transitions so the horse takes a big breath with the girth tight - with everything adjusted as it needs to be to mount, rather than pulling the girth up then getting straight on without moving the horse around a bit first.

I do find people tend to say "you should do this or that" but horses are individuals and what might not even affect one might bother another immensely. I work on the assumption it's better to proceed as if the next step MIGHT bother the horse - if it doesn't, you're laughing, if it does, you're prepared and have avoided an initial bad experience.

How are you asking the horse to trot on? Some even very young horses seem to be okay with "pony club kicks" but for others that's the kiss of death and can set up a long term pattern of resistance. Different people have different methods.

I want to feel the horse is relaxed in its topline before I ask for trot. Again, some horses just come this way, some need some help to dissipate their tension. Some are ready to trot the first day (I've had a few that even cantered in the school within the first couple of rides, not because they were pushed but because they found it easy) some need more time. I don't trot before they are steering and stopping comfortably, and moving off the leg (which should happen the first ride or two) again because I think it's easier to avoid a problem that fix one later.

I always start by trotting a few steps then coming back to walk, then asking for the trot again, going a bit longer. How much I do depends totally on feel. This is one of those points where it's important not to confuse "forward" with "speed" - I want the horse to go forward willingly, even if he feels confused, and come back in a relaxed way from the first day. I have done horses in the past where aim was get trotting very forward and keep trotting and I think that's perfectly doable, but it has to be part of a whole system and works better with some types of horses than others. My issue with doing that with a sharp horse out in the open though, is what do you do if the horse gets onward bound and/or starts to buck? Once again, my personal preference is to be overly careful on the grounds that I can always ask more if the horse feels ready but it's hard to "dial down" if I've asked too much and created tension. That said, much of starting horses is grabbing opportunity so setting up situations where the horse wants to do what's asked - so long as the rider also makes the point he IS being asked - is an excellent practice.

Do you have anyone experienced you could ask to have a look? The problem is, on the internet, we can't see how your horse REALLY is so advice that might be just the ticket for a horse that's slightly reluctant could be the wrong approach for a horse that's seriously confused or on the tricky end of the spectrum. Again, I think it's good practice to try to avoid a problem if you can - it's not "normal" for young horses to be trying to buck people off long term (out of my personal sample of probably around a 100 horses started, not including retraining candidates), or at least my preference is for them not to want to try.:)
 
Thank you for all replies

I'm asking him to trot on with my voice and a gentle squeeze; most definately pony club kicks would be the kiss of death! He still feels tense in walk which is why I'm wondering whether to keep walking for a few days till he settles more. I'm always careful not to over-tighten the girth or to do too much in one go although he is not one of those that is 'girthy' anyway.

My gut feeling is that he feels worried by the extra movement of the rider when I'm trotting and is reacting to it, rather than trying to buck me off. Although before Christmas he was walk, trot and cantering under saddle and even popped over a little log so I'm not sure this can really be the case!

I will give the guy who broke him a call but I don't know if he will come as we have Strangles on the yard. I didn't really want to lose any more time with him as he is now in his 5 year old year and should be doing a bit more, but on the other hand 2 or 3 more months waiting till the yard gets the all clear is preferable to creating a problem that I later need to solve!
 
Definitely worth a conversation, even if he can't come to you - he would know the horse best and be able to most knowledgeably advise you. :)

Can you move around on the horse's back in the walk, petting his neck, behind the saddle etc, doing a bit of "posting" at the walk? It can't hurt and it may remind him that having the rider move around a bit is nothing to worry about.
 
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Yes I've left him a message to call me.

Will try the moving around on him in walk; he is one of those that has a panic button (for example if something makes him jump behind him, he will kick out as quick as a flash) and I don't fancy him hitting it while I'm out in an open field!
 
Spoke to man who backed my youngster; he isn't prepared to come out and ride him/watch me ride him, because of the Strangles on my yard. He is worried that if people hear he has come to my yard he will lose business (he runs a big training yard), which is understandable.
In reality it could be 3 months before the whole yard gets the all clear.

However this leaves me in a bit of a quandry.....

Do I continue riding and see if I can settle him or shall I just leave him 3 months (as the trainer suggests) until he can have the horse back for re-backing?

I'm wondering why I feel like such a wuss as I have over the years broken or reschooled lots of horses, probably upwards of 100, but I have had a break from riding for 3 years due to babies and back problems. I'm not sure if my reluctance to ride my boy through this is good instinct (usually if I feel not to push a point I'm right!) or just lack of recent riding experience.

My horse is now 5 and I really wanted to get him out jumping this year!

Help!!! Advice anyone???
 
I think it is a good idea to turn away again if you are feeling at all unsure- it could even be that bit of reluctance that your horse is picking up on.

far better to turn away and re-start with a good experience than risk having a whoopsie now and knocking your (and his) confidence.
 
I think getting the saddle checked would be a priority... same thing happened with my 4 yr old, after being ridden for 5 months nicely and then having 2 months off, when i started to ride him again he did exactly the same as you describe and it turned out the saddle didn't really fit at all.

(ps. i did have a saddler out to check it when i first started riding him).
 
if you are confident enough and experienced enough, carry on, if not, 12 weeks off will do less harm than a huge set back at this point.
have you tried having a lead horse about 6 foot in front in the school, and have them trot off, use your lunge commands and ask yours to follow. often, this is enough to distract them out of thinking about / removing you, they are more bothered about what their mate is doing and where they are going!
ive just broken a very quirky sharp 4yo this way and with very good results, but you do have to insist once you have got forwards and basic commands that they circle away and take the lead etc over time!
 
Hmmm thank you for that suggestion, I've never tried using a lead horse before when breaking; worth a go !

I've had another good look at the fit of my saddle which was fitted by a saddler but with him being ill (lost a lot of weight) and then spring grass (put a lot back on) as well as growing..... it is 98% there but it does move forward very slightly.

Just to give him the benefit of the doubt I will have the saddler out again.

Thanks!
 
if he was mine once i knew sadddle was ok would want him to lunge with stirrups loose even if shorter so got used to bit of banging about. Do some long reining as well school or out and about to get him forward bit more then ride walking trying to keep yourself really relaxed (easier said than done i know) so he relaxes and swings thru his back then try little trots sitting like a limpet finger in neckstrap head up a bit etc. Maybe with someone on the ground to give you and him security or even on the end of a lunge line till he relaxes but if you have any doubts or nobody knowledgeable about young horses to support you on the ground then i would wait for help. Good luck.
 
Just an update to say...... problem solved!

Had the saddler out who looked at saddle and said 'Hmmm well if we are being REALLY picky it could be a tad wider at the front but nothing that's going to make a huge difference'

So slightly adjusted saddle, back on board, no humping, trotted round the school like a pro!

Makes me realise how important saddle fitting is.....

Why is it though, some horses (there are a few at my yard) just put up with blatantly badly fitting saddles and some don't?

Anyway very pleased, been out hacking and my boy is back to his old self.
 
Great to hear.

Saddles can be tricky things - I've even had horses improve drastically in ones that *look* like a worse fit than their regular one so changing saddles is a first port of call in many cases, just to check. I think of them as shoes - having the right size is only a small part of the equation and different ones fit different people, just because. You know as soon as you put a pair of new shoes on if they're going to work or not, just as some feel *okay* but kill you after a day on your feet.

As far as why some cope and some don't . . . well, that's just individuals, isn't it? Quite a lot of what we do to horses is uncomfortable for them - even if it's done right - and some are just more stoic than others for whatever reason. We hear about "learned helplessness" now because of rolkur but in fact a mild version happens to many horses. Bascially if the horse learns that complaining will either bring no relief (if it's basically stoic and not inclined to escalate protests) or, worse, will bring more extreme "correction" it will learn to cope. Horse, being prey, are stoic by nature and tend to want to move when they feel pain, which makes it very easy to put the motivation down to "enthusiasm" or "being bad".

Just like kids - sometimes they cry because they hurt, sometimes they cry because they're frustrated or angry or just don't want to. But, by the same token, if every time a kid has a valid reason for being upset it gets a smack and if it complains more it gets worse, it doesn't take long for the child to figure out complaining gets it nowhere. Of course, it's still hurt . . . .

I do think it's important to remember that the situations that bring resistance - or breakdown - are cumulative, though. So a horse might cope with a badly fitting saddle when it's not ridden much, or with a particular rider, or doing a specific job, or if everything else feels okay. But the same horse will start to object if any of those other factors change. In some cases, equilibrium can be restored - particularly if the problem is recognised early on - and go back to being something the horse can cope with. If the problem has gone on for some time, though, or the horses simply changes its mind about things, it might not be enough to simply rectify the situation, the horse will also need to be convinced to change its ways, both in trust and in submission.

Sorry, my specialist subject. :D A big part of being a successful trainer is always "listening" to horses (a phrase which has entered common use and lost much of its original meaning) but then pick out what input on the horse's part is valid and/or a sign of something that needs to change, and which is regarding things that just "need to be". It seems that people are increasingly divided into two camps (or at least say they are) but in fact any good training program will be a mix of accomodating the individual and working out how best to help it live in the real world with the rest of us, safely and productively.
 
Thanks TarrSteps, real food for thought.

Just to add, so so many people said to me 'oh that's 5 year olds, he was such a good 4 year old he's bound to try it on as a 5 year old, now he's bigger and stronger etc. etc.'

I'm glad I 'listened' when he wasn't happy; I daresay had he had a smack he would have just 'got on with it'.
 
only just seen this thread, well done for listening to your boy and getting his saddle checked out. i think that one that didn't hump/buck initially won't do it later unless it has a reason (sore back, uncomfy saddle, uncomfy rider, whatever). glad to hear he's happier now.
 
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