re the Is it fair? thread.

[SantaVera]

Basically someone is being paid about £5 an hour for mucking out stables. sounds illegal to me. Expoitation in the horse industry has gone on for far too long. People say "But the riding school/yard will close". " riding scools close to me have recently declaired they are closing down and I know of another a few miles away who will probably close due to instructors not wanting to work weekends. Everything changes and moves on in life. The instuctors are finding it more to their advantage to go freelance in the week. What are your thoughts? is it worth expoiting people, relying on volunteers or whathave you just to keep unprofitable enterprises open?

 

[I'm Dun]

I commented on there about people doing 2 days of volunteer work for an hour's lesson. I cant see that happening in any other industry. That particular opportunity didn't sound horrendous, but I know plenty that are.

 

[bonny]

Does it depend on how old the worker is ? When I was young, many moons ago riding schools had armies of young girls just wanting to be around horses, happy to do any job and just hope to get some riding out of it. Has that all gone now ?

 

[ester]

Whether it's illegal depends on age. Plenty of people do chores for rides in a way that wouldn't really be quantifiable, it seems to me that this set up has just put this on a more formal setting.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

When I was about 8/9 we turned up at the riding school between 7.30 and 8. Did any jobs that needed doing, led the ponies in the lessons. We would get picked up between pm and 4.30 . This was both weekend days and if we were lucky we got to have a ride on a Sunday afternoon!! Loved every minute!

 

[Auslander]

To be fair to the employer, the person in the thread is being paid per stable, so there is a very easy way to resolve the issue, and that is for her to work on getting quicker! I would expect someone to easily do 4 stables in an hour, including filling water and haynets. I can do twice that, but I do it every day, and I know my boxes (plus they are kept very clean)
I'm a big believer in encouraging people to get better, rather than letting them stagnate, and paying a set amount per stable is a great way to motivate them to work out how to get quicker!

 

[teddypops]

The person wasn’t being paid per hour though. It was per stable.

 

[twiggy2]

And they were not being paid ot was work in return for lessons.

 

[stangs]

Does it depend on how old the worker is ? When I was young, many moons ago riding schools had armies of young girls just wanting to be around horses, happy to do any job and just hope to get some riding out of it. Has that all gone now ?

When I was young, I volunteered for my local RS, doing 8-12h shifts just to be around horses and my friends, and maybe once a month I got to ride for free. Then, over time, as I became more knowledgeable, there were more opportunities to ride or have sole charge on the yard.

No one can convince me that 2.50 (in lessons) per stable is exploitation. To me, that's a fair benefit to expect from volunteering.

 

[mariew]

I suspect the days of hanging out at a riding school is over due to h&s, I am pretty sure a BHS approved one has to supervise kids always which makes it unviable. Funnily enough in today's horse world there should theoretically be an increase in demand for riding schools due to the increase in cost of owning a horse.

 

[paddy555]

she is paid £2.50 a stable and it appears the average time to muck out, water and hay is 15 mins a stable so rate of £10 an hour. That seems a reasonable rate for a simple task. If she wants to take longer to do it then it is up to her. As for exploiting volunteers then surely the description is in the word volunteer. They make a choice to volunteer, they are not press ganged.

 

[Widgeon]

When I was about 8/9 we turned up at the riding school between 7.30 and 8. Did any jobs that needed doing, led the ponies in the lessons. We would get picked up between pm and 4.30 . This was both weekend days and if we were lucky we got to have a ride on a Sunday afternoon!! Loved every minute!

Exactly the same here. I loved it and wouldn't have had it any other way. However I was too young to work at a paid job for most of the time I was doing that - I think I'd see it differently if the volunteers involved were over 18.

Going back to the original thread, my first thought was that the OP was perhaps taking a bit long (on average) to do one box - I'd reckon on 15 minutes to do one, assuming not a full muck out of the whole bed. So that would be £10 per hour, which isn't too bad.

ETA - oops, I see Auslander has already said exactly this!

...there is a very easy way to resolve the issue, and that is for her to work on getting quicker! I would expect someone to easily do 4 stables in an hour...I'm a big believer in encouraging people to get better, rather than letting them stagnate, and paying a set amount per stable is a great way to motivate them to work out how to get quicker!

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I'm another who spent every Saturday, along with several other girls, helping out at the riding school in exchange for a free ride in a lesson.

Like others have said, I did it to be around horses as my parents couldn't afford for me to have my own. We all had a great time. I wouldn't do it now but when I was younger it's all I wanted to do.

We did all sorts of jobs, mucking out, leading, tacking up, tacking cleaning, sweeping etc etc. I then worked there for a paid Saturday job, plus days in the college holidays, teaching, while I was at college. When I finished college I then got a full time job in a call centre. I wouldn't go back to horse related work.

 

[ycbm]

At 13-15 I was thrilled to do it for free just to be around horses. Nearly all Riding Club members work a couple of days a year for free, I'm not sure I see a lot of difference if the worker is willing. I learned so much about looking after my own by the work I did for free in a riding stables.
.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I did it all throughout my teenage years and loved every minute of it, and I never got a free lesson - I was lucky that my parents were able to afford for me to have one once a week.

 

[Rowreach]

Basically someone is being paid about £5 an hour for mucking out stables. sounds illegal to me. Expoitation in the horse industry has gone on for far too long. People say "But the riding school/yard will close". " riding scools close to me have recently declaired they are closing down and I know of another a few miles away who will probably close due to instructors not wanting to work weekends. Everything changes and moves on in life. The instuctors are finding it more to their advantage to go freelance in the week. What are your thoughts? is it worth expoiting people, relying on volunteers or whathave you just to keep unprofitable enterprises open?

Have a look at the table for the NMW. Quite a lot of people are (and still will be after April 2022) on less than £5/hour.

Besides, as others have pointed out, this isn't something the person in question is doing as an actual job, and nor is she being paid an hourly rate.

In terms of your actual question, then keeping any unprofitable business going is not the best idea, but most proprietors of equestrian establishments are not paying themselves anything either, it's never been a moneyspinning lifestyle.

 

[scruffyponies]

I always thought that the problem with the NMW is that it reduces the value of work to a simple one-way financial transaction. This is detremental to any situation where the worker benefits from doing the job in other ways; gaining skills and experience, enjoyment, non-financial reward, or they simply want to do it. It's particularly damaging to the young, and leads to the situation we see today where nobody wants to take on someone who hasn't done the job before.

My message to young people (including my own kids) is that your pay is the least valuable part of what you get from your first 3 or 4 jobs.

 

[stangs]

I always thought that the problem with the NMW is that it reduces the value of work to a simple one-way financial transaction. This is detremental to any situation where the worker benefits from doing the job in other ways; gaining skills and experience, enjoyment, non-financial reward, or they simply want to do it. It's particularly damaging to the young, and leads to the situation we see today where nobody wants to take on someone who hasn't done the job before.

For people who live at home or are supported by their family/OH, then yes I agree with you. But if someone is struggling to earn enough to live independently, then they can't start thinking about doing what they actually want to do. Thanks to the high cost of living, many people will be in that situation and NMW helps keep them afloat.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

My daughter is currently doing an apprenticeship and therefore gets paid a tiny amount for extremely hard work. However, she’s learning so much and if we had to pay for the training she’s getting on a daily basis it would cost us a fortune.

We are in a position where we can give her a small monthly allowance to top up her bank account but she’s also learning how to create and stick to a budget, how to feed herself well and how to prioritise different wants and needs.

As far as we’re concerned, the apprenticeship is a learning experience rather than an earning one (and it’s a lot cheaper than university!)

 

[All]

My daughter is currently doing an apprenticeship and therefore gets paid a tiny amount for extremely hard work. However, she’s learning so much and if we had to pay for the training she’s getting on a daily basis it would cost us a fortune.

We are in a position where we can give her a small monthly allowance to top up her bank account but she’s also learning how to create and stick to a budget, how to feed herself well and how to prioritise different wants and needs.

As far as we’re concerned, the apprenticeship is a learning experience rather than an earning one (and it’s a lot cheaper than university!)

i was a apprentice back in 2012 back then i got £2 per hour £80 a week
the good news your only own the apprentice wage for one year
there is one big problem with it that i know off lot of people after the first year with that company they got fired for some bs reason (all the company wanted was cheap labor next day they got someone new for another year)

 

[ponynutz]

£5 is above minimum wage for people below 18

 

[TealH0rse]

I don't think we should be actively dismissing riding school closures with 'times are changing' analogies. Riding schools are usually young people's foot in the door, whether that be for recreational riding or for a career with equines.

Many riding schools take on young people who would not be able to get a job elsewhere due to their age. It pays for the lessons that their parents would otherwise not be able to afford. Nobody is forcing them to do the work in exchange for riding lessons or cheap pay; the majority of the younger workers value the experience and appreciate being able to ride.

 

[Birker2020]

Does it depend on how old the worker is ? When I was young, many moons ago riding schools had armies of young girls just wanting to be around horses, happy to do any job and just hope to get some riding out of it. Has that all gone now ?

I think with Health & Safety and litigation and insurance premiums unskilled workers (albeit young girls) are just too perilous on a yard of horses. Great shame, I spent many weekends with my friend mucking out and tacking up horses at the local riding school when I was 14, flask of chicken soup and a sandwich and a free half hour ride every other weekend in return!

 

[Muddy unicorn]

It hasn't all gone - all the riding schools around us have volunteers who are mostly teenage girls. Some will get free rides - the opportunity to exercise horses or go on a hack, occasionally it will be volunteering in return for formal lessons but that seems to be rarer and my daughter spent two years volunteering every Saturday and several days in the school holidays in return for nothing at all - apart from all the stable management skills she was learning. Volunteering meant that when she went to a bigger riding school, she was actually useful rather than being a liability and quickly got a paid weekend/holiday job