Reading Verm X prompted me to worm urhh!

[indie999]

I did read about the Verm X post the other day and so I thought yes due for a worm(I usually only worm spring/Autumn as I poo pick daily am now down to one cob so I thought I was lucky to have time etc). So yesterday morning double dosed strongid P and this morning poo picking a mix of real normal poos with no evidence but then some right sloppy ones full of tape worm bits and full length looking ones. Each flat tapeworm segmant was about 3/4 inch and the long ones I suppose about 4 inches flat and long. They look like bits of lard. I have scrupulously poo picked as he is out 24/7. He is as happy as larry today!!No wonder he was always hungry feeding that lot of parasites!
Question one??
He doesnt like being stabled so the next question is shall I move him to new ungrazed pasture tommorow so he has had 2 days on his current strip of grass???

Question two?? I bought a tube of Equest gel and was going to give this in a weeks time as I know it has a longer effect. Is this ok got this for encysted etc as I realised it doesnt kill tapeworms

I have never seen the tapeworms before in 10 years and was quite shocked at them! Yuk!!
I dont normally do two lots of wormers at once but perhaps I should do a better programme now?

 

[moana]

Yes, I would move to clean grazing, and rest the used section for as long as you can.

Not being an sqp, I would recommend contacting Chris at Abbey Diagnostics, or borderrieviera (however that is spelt) on here for professional advice regarding further worming.

 

[indie999]

Thank you I was thinking of doing a lab test etc as BHS had westgate offer on, but I dont think they cover tapeworm in the test?? I had never used strongid P (I just remembered my sister always using it). Not sure what prompted me to give it a go probably just trying to change the drugs around to stop resistance.

But good idea. I dont want to over worm etc but now I feel a bit guilty of what I found and thought I was quite on the ball. Obviously not!!

Thanks I will contact them and move him over tomorrow...he wont complain as the grass is greener!

 

[moana]

I wasn't thinking of a count, more advice on the worming angle, what to use and when. You are correct in that tapeworm is not testable by faecal counts, they must be done with blood tests.

Just have a word about actual worming, to check your best option now. If you have a good equine vet or local SQP you could always chat to them instead.

 

[ester]

moving to clean grazing is not really advised anymore in case of instances of resistance, unfortunately it is the old way of doing things that is rather ingrained! If your horse has any remaining resistant worms and you move to new pasture 100% of the population on the new pasture will be the resistant version, and because you have removed the non resistant, competitive population the resistance will be above to flourish. It is much better to maintain a mixed population where any resistance constitutes a smaller proportion.

For future reference Equest/5 day panacur equine guard should be given in the winter. This is because encysteds emerge in the spring and it is this mass emergence that can cause problems (so you need to use it before this point)

strongid is pyrantel which there is some reported resistance praziquantel (which is in eqvalan duo and and pramox off the top of my head) has no resistance reported. (this was the situ last time I looked anyway).

Poo picking doesn't always help tapes as they go through snails you see .

What you do now I think depends on your previous worming history, was it last in the autumn? and what you wormed with?

 

[indie999]

Ok I will keep the Equest for another time and speak to someone about what I should worm with next....Thanks for the responses.

 

[galaxy]

praziquantel (which is in eqvalan duo and and pramox off the top of my head) has no resistance reported. (this was the situ last time I looked anyway).

/QUOTE]



you are correct in that that is what is reported, but I don't know how they are getting away with it. I know at least 2 horses that have been resistant to Pramox and they were definitly wormed correctly. We no longer use it (one of these horses in on our yard) Both instances were repoted to vets to pass the info on. Can't believe they are the only cases.

 

[ester]

I suspect/guess galaxy (I don't this btw!) that they haven't been able to isolate and culture (wrong word!) the resistant tapeworm from the affected horses, so that evidence is anecdotal rather than proof so to speak and they can therefore put it down to incorrect dosing per weight etc. maybe.

Thanks for the info though is useful to know.

 

[galaxy]

hmmm.... maybe I'm just a cynic. But I know those horses were wormed correctly.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

The resistance risk with tapewormers and the increased incidence of tapeworms has made me move to blood testing for tapeworm. I have scheduled it in with the horses annual jabs which means no extra call out fee.

That way you only have to worm for it if you have it. One of mine came up positive, one negative, so one has been tapewormered.

Also vet said if negative then you only need to retest that horse in a couple of years if others are positive on the same land as the negative horses are likely to be not prone to the tapeworm, but am doing it annually anyway for at least 3 years on both horses to test out this theory! (on year two, so far its correct!).

It also means I can see if the tapewormer is working, since if you tapeworm without testing and then at some point tested you wouldnt know if the wormer was working or if they didnt have any in the first place. This way you knew they had tapeworm and then after worming if the next test is positive (which my big chap was), you know there might be resistance and you need to swap to a different tapeworm ingredient.

Interesting the big chap who comes up with positive tests and who is tapewormed, I have never yet (despite being very vigilant) seen any sniff of a tapeworm in his poo, either generally or after worming.So either his tapeworms are resistant to all the chemicals, or he's not very very tapeworm-y.

 

[galaxy]

It also means I can see if the tapewormer is working, since if you tapeworm without testing and then at some point tested you wouldnt know if the wormer was working or if they didnt have any in the first place. This way you knew they had tapeworm and then after worming if the next test is positive (which my big chap was), you know there might be resistance and you need to swap to a different tapeworm ingredient.

.

this is what happened for one horse. It colliced, they blood tested and it came back with tapeworm. Gave it a Pramox (which he definitly had more than enough of and swallowed it all), retested a while later (can't remember how long now, was on vets advise) and he still had it. Changed wormer and it cleared.

 

[indie999]

Very interesting all this. I had never spotted the worms after worming at all.

At least I know it has worked so far. I have plenty of grazing am going to post another question now about tapeworms!

 

[ester]

hmmm.... maybe I'm just a cynic. But I know those horses were wormed correctly.

I suspect that they were and that there was resistance but that it doesn't have to go reported (by the proper channels) unless it is 'proved' in the manner I mentioned. ie a bit of a way round it so to speak.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

this is what happened for one horse. It colliced, they blood tested and it came back with tapeworm. Gave it a Pramox (which he definitly had more than enough of and swallowed it all), retested a while later (can't remember how long now, was on vets advise) and he still had it. Changed wormer and it cleared.

Thats interesting. I had used Equitape last winterwhich from memory is same ingredient as Pramox in respect of the tapewormer - praziquantel (I dont use Pramox itself as he is a delicate soul and I dont risk the multiple combo wormers but worm separately for encysted).

Next blood test also came up positive still - altho I dont know if it had cleared the tapes and then somehow he got reinfected again.

So I used Embotape this winter (double dose for tapes)- pyrantel active ingredient instead (same ingredientas strong ID or Pyratape) - we shall see on the next blood test whether it worked; I am tempted to blood test in 3-4 months rather than wait the full 12 months to see if this was more effective. If it is still positive Im not sure what to do as there are i think only 2 wormer groups for tapes.

Interestingly altho test came back positive again this winter despite not having seen any tapes, he has kept weight on better (too well!) this winter. As he is 19 years old, I guess its better that he does that than goes too far the other way!

Should add he is 17hh IDxTB and is given a bigggg dose of the wormer - 700-750kg dose so I wouldnt think there is any underdosing.

 

[moana]

That's why I suggested getting qualified advice. Pramox and Equest will not stay as a resistance free wormer forever, all wormer started off that way!