Reality check...

FestiveFuzz

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So following on from my last thread, I decided against buying the dressage horse unseen for all the incredibly valid points you folks made, so thanks for that. However I did go try the schoolmaster before we left for skiing. He's a 16.2hh 13yo ISH.

Initial thought was "wow he's pretty under weight given the winter we've had" think condition score 1 maybe 2 if I'm generous.

Watched him ridden by yard and seemed a nice sort, a little looky but not reactive at all. Had a rather enthusiastic canter but think that was partly due to the rider trying to fix his head into a false outline...was tempted to shout "forget about his head for now and just ride him" but instead wrapped up her ride and hopped on myself.

His walk needs a bit of work, his old owner was a complete novice when he was bought so I think he's been allowed to plod along a bit but soon responded after a few nudges with my leg. Trot was super comfy and left to his own devices he will offer up a nice outline naturally. He's obviously used to preempting things as as soon as I shortened up my reins a little he squealed, popped the tiniest little kick of the heels (so small I had to ask my trainer what he'd actually done) and bounced into canter on the wrong lead. Stopped, asked again and got a lovely rocking horse canter on the right leg. Gave him his head on the long side and pushed him on and he lengthened beautifully without getting excited. We had a slight misunderstanding on the right rein canter as there were jumps up and clearly he's used to being jumped as soon as he changes rein...motorbiked round the top of the school and panicked a little but as soon as I remembered to ride him and half halted he came straight back to me. Funnily enough even when he motorbiked I never felt unsafe on him, just think I panicked as I was bolted with at a viewing years ago and it has stayed with me. Checked our brakes round the top a couple more and then out of nowhere decided to jump him over a 2'3" upright...bearing in mind I rarely jump these days, could count on one hand the amount of times I jumped H over 2'3" and never, ever feel brave enough to jump a horse I don't know at a viewing.

We've negotiated on price...he's £3k including all tack and wardrobe and they'll do a new set of shoes too. There was a niggle in the back of my mind that he's overpriced given his current condition and that he's a little livelier than I'd expect for a schoolmaster (and realistically will only get more so once he's put on weight and is fitter). However despite all this I liked the way that even when he acted up I felt brave enough to ride him through it and am still beaming at the fact I jumped him and that's before we've even built up trust. However a few friends have since echoed my thoughts on price and I'm doubting myself. The owner won't budge on price so it's a case of continue with the sale subject to 5 stage vetting or walk away.

Help!
 

wills_91

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What does your trainer think? At the end of the day you can't put a price on safety. If you really feel he is for you, you would be crazy to pass up on it if he passes the vetting.
 

alliwantforchristmas

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this is so fresh in my mind after buying my new boy a while back and him coming out with all sorts of quirks which we are now working through and me thinking to myself ho hum ... I really should have paid more attention to that little niggle, but heyho, onwards and upwards ... my main concern would be what he will be like when he is a proper weight ... given he's a bit lively now! With a condition score of 1.5 ish? But you know what you can cope with. I think price is a personal thing - a horse is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. But I would not ignore your niggles, from experience I think your gut instinct is usually well founded.
 

DD265

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That doesn't sound lively to me - that sounds like a horse who's used to being ridden/trained in a certain way reacting in a certain way.

What does your instructor think?
 

alliwantforchristmas

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oh, I've just read a bit of your other thread, which I hadn't seen ... truly, with your budget, and the way you describe this horse in your previous thread to the way he rode today ... I would be hesitating. He doesn't sound like a school master and there are a few things in your post above that ring alarm bells about the way he did ride. There would be loads of fab horses out there for the kind of money you have, horses you really could pretty much get on and 'do' and be at the weight and fitness now that you would expect. I would hang on ... you never know, your dressage prospect may still be around when you get back off holiday even. Did you ask them why he was so thin?
 

be positive

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Often once up to weight and getting ridden properly they will actually settle rather than become more lively, we are going into spring which is the ideal time to get the weight on and allow him more time out as well as some sensible work, people often think underfeeding will make them quieter, and it may be partly why he looks poor, but in my experience a horse with a full belly, hay or grass not hard feed, is usually content, more relaxed and happier to work nicely when asked.

He does sound like a schoolmaster to me, a competition one rather than a first horse, he will go better the better you ride and teach you how to find the correct buttons, jumping a horse you don't know and feeling confident is to me a real positive, I think the fact you are still smiling says a lot, as for price you haven't said his age, what he has done in the past but if he is a young teen with experience to elem, 100 jumping or thereabouts then in your area he is probably a bargain and if he looked well would probably be snapped up provided he is sound.

Sorry just seen he is 13, then still young enough to have years ahead and for you to take further if you want.
 
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Crugeran Celt

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Is his condition poor because he is to much to handle if fed properly? Just makes me wonder why a horse that is being sold is in poor condition.
 

chocolategirl

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He may have been kept thin for a reason. Be wary that's my advice. How did all the other horses on the yard look? It's an old trick to keep them thin so they don't have any energy, then once you start to feed them up and they get much stronger, bingo! you have a nut job on your hands! I'm not saying that's what will happen, I just know from experience that it can!
 

FestiveFuzz

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I think what I said to a friend the other night is probably fairly apt...he wouldn't be a beginners schoolmaster but for someone whose ridden for most of their life but lacks brave pants he's ideal...he makes me feel safe and not afraid to push myself out of my comfort zone which is something none of the others I've viewed have done. When I say livelier than expected for a schoolmaster I guess in my mind I expected a schoolmaster to be responsive to aids without second guessing me and probably wouldn't have expected the squeal and kick up of the heels when I prepared to canter...but like I said, none of that actually bothers me and for where I want to get to (medium dressage and BE80/90) I reckon he could be a good teacher.

Trainer really liked him and thought he would still be well within my capabilities even if he sparked up a bit once he was feeling better in himself. Apparently I downplay my ability quite a bit when actually I'm a nice little rider...though to be honest I think she was just in shock I jumped a horse I didn't know!

If he looked as well as he did in his ad pics he would have more than likely sold to the first viewer. Apparently his weight is down to the owner buying a new horse a few months ago and then losing interest in him until he was finally put on sales livery. I get the impression he was just turned away when the new horse arrived. I also suspect he needs his teeth done and will be getting my vet to check at the vetting.
 

rachk89

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Yeah be wary over how thin he was yet still being lively. My one was the same but he has still been amazing even once bigger. He wasn't as bad as a 1 or a 2 though. Might be ok but be wary. I wouldn't buy him given how he acted during the time when you rode him. Says to me he will go mental once fed up.
 

be positive

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Yeah be wary over how thin he was yet still being lively. My one was the same but he has still been amazing even once bigger. He wasn't as bad as a 1 or a 2 though. Might be ok but be wary. I wouldn't buy him given how he acted during the time when you rode him. Says to me he will go mental once fed up.

Why should he "go mental once fed up" I have had many horses come in looking less than idea and being fed appropriately with ad lib forage combined with time out in the field and the correct work and without fail they are better once up to weight, none have gone mental yet and it is the right time of year to deal with a slightly fresh horse.

Being on sales livery probably means they have sharpened him up a bit to show him off, he has probably been jumped a bit more than ideal and just become a little reactive, it can be really tricky to get the balance between having them switch off when someone new tries them and being a little more off the leg than ideal, having sold similar horses it is very difficult to show them at their best when the yard has only had a relatively short time to get to know them, even pros don't get it right all the time and they may be over feeding him in an effort to get weight on quickly.
 

alliwantforchristmas

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I think what I said to a friend the other night is probably fairly apt...he wouldn't be a beginners schoolmaster but for someone whose ridden for most of their life but lacks brave pants he's ideal...he makes me feel safe and not afraid to push myself out of my comfort zone which is something none of the others I've viewed have done. When I say livelier than expected for a schoolmaster I guess in my mind I expected a schoolmaster to be responsive to aids without second guessing me and probably wouldn't have expected the squeal and kick up of the heels when I prepared to canter...but like I said, none of that actually bothers me and for where I want to get to (medium dressage and BE80/90) I reckon he could be a good teacher.

Trainer really liked him and thought he would still be well within my capabilities even if he sparked up a bit once he was feeling better in himself. Apparently I downplay my ability quite a bit when actually I'm a nice little rider...though to be honest I think she was just in shock I jumped a horse I didn't know!

If he looked as well as he did in his ad pics he would have more than likely sold to the first viewer. Apparently his weight is down to the owner buying a new horse a few months ago and then losing interest in him until he was finally put on sales livery. I get the impression he was just turned away when the new horse arrived. I also suspect he needs his teeth done and will be getting my vet to check at the vetting.


LOL ... you are smitten OP ... go for it! Sometimes you just know that you can't walk away or you will spend your entire life thinking 'what if'. I hope he passes the vetting for you and you have loads of luck and success with him :)
 

FestiveFuzz

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I feel I've accidentally misrepresented him. He definitely wasn't sharp off the leg...needed a few subtle nudges to keep the pace I want most of the time if I'm honest but not ploddy...it's hard to describe. When he squealed into canter I hadn't put my leg on but had foolishly chosen the corner he was first asked to canter on when he was shown to me so I think it was more a "wee I know what I'm doing here" rather than anything nasty.

His owner was a total novice when they bought him and got to competing RC and low level eventing so I can't imagine he was horrifically sharp with them if what I've been told is to be believed. Surely with him being on sales livery they'd have to be rather bold to advertise him as a schoolmaster if he was a total nut job?
 

Pigeon

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Condition score of 1 is pretty dire. ISHs tend to be very good doers. I have two retirees who are fatties on poor grazing and a little hay and nothing else! Are you sure he's not a TB? ;) I would find it odd that a sales livery yard would want anyone viewing a horse in that state, it doesn't look good for their reputation. Perhaps he has ulcers? What's he supposed to be a schoolmaster in? I assumed dressage from your last post, he sounds more like a RC type? Have you looked at his competition record? Just seems a very very different option to the mare. Is he the first you've viewed?

£3k is pretty cheap tbh, so it's not too much of a gamble, and he could turn out to be a gem. If he's the one, you will know.
 
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FestiveFuzz

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He's 1/4 TB, 1/4 ID and 1/2 SF. He's more of an allrounder but then again dressage has been my safe place for so long and now I'm more confident I desperately want to get out and start jumping again with a goal of doing BE80/90. My old mare was very point and shoot with jumping and that's what I'm looking for with the new horse as I feel braver on something that can get me out of trouble when I get the strides wrong which I trust he could do. But yes, the weight does really worry me.
 

bouncing_ball

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He's 1/4 TB, 1/4 ID and 1/2 SF. He's more of an allrounder but then again dressage has been my safe place for so long and now I'm more confident I desperately want to get out and start jumping again with a goal of doing BE80/90. My old mare was very point and shoot with jumping and that's what I'm looking for with the new horse as I feel braver on something that can get me out of trouble when I get the strides wrong which I trust he could do. But yes, the weight does really worry me.
SF = Selle Francais?
 

FfionWinnie

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Have you seen video evidence that he has plenty of competition experience? Have you searched on his name to find out if he has any? If he has, he should be known at local venues or at a RC or something. School masters don't get there by being owned by novices after all.

I know for instance I could say phone my local venue and they will tell you their thoughts on either of my horses and they are relatively young and not been out that much.
 

gunnergundog

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You want a schoolmaster for medium level dressage and eventing at BE90. OK.........I assume therefore that this guy has a competition record at least at those levels if he is a schoolmaster. How many points does he have and what has he done eventing wise. Was he ridden by a pro or an amateur?

I would be very wary unless the sellers have a very good reason for the condition he is in. Do the sellers have a good reputation? To be honest, I would expect a schoolmaster at medium dressage and one that jumps sensibly for an amateur to command more than the price you indicate - assuming he has no vices and is hackable.

IF you go ahead, get a VERY good specialist equine vet to do the vetting and get bloods taken. Do a lot of homework on the internet on his competition name (ask to see his passport) and contact previous owners.

Buyer beware! I have alarm bells ringing - hope I am wrong.
 

eggs

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I hope the vetting goes well and you have many happy years with him. It definitely sounds as though he has clicked with you. I don't think he is overpriced given that he is coming with his wardrobe.

I'll go against the grain here and don't necessarily agree that getting the weight on him will make him go loopy.
 

rowan666

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I think if you've got "that" feeling about him then go for it! I also don't necessarily think he will turn loopy once upto weight (my Anglo came back of loan in a very poor condition but still lively and I know he 100% won't be loopy when he's back upto weight he will be exactly the same forward but very sensible as always) but i would be wary of why he's in that condition i.e any underlying health issues but you really can't put a price on that feeling you get when it just feels right :)
 

FestiveFuzz

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I'm still waiting on his passport so haven't had a chance to check his records yet. Apparently he was produced by an event yard...Brock someone I think...but then sold on so clearly wasn't a worldbeater but that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm away skiing at the moment so communication isn't as simple as just picking up the phone (well not without ridiculous charges) so I'm relying on text and email annoyingly.
 

FestiveFuzz

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In honesty I think I'm just concerned by his current weight and the fact the passport wasn't to hand when I viewed him which I'd have expected from a sales livery, but it's really hard as he's the first horse I've viewed that has made me feel brave and I'm terrified of walking away and regretting it.
 

gunnergundog

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Please do NOT proceed without seeing/touching the passport and confirming that the horse in front of you and the one in the passport are one and the same.

I can not think of any legitimate reason why a vendor with a horse on sales livery does not have the passport to hand.

However, putting that to one side for the moment, the vendor should still have been able to give you his registered name and a pretty good indication of his competition record.

Me smells a rat! Buyer beware! IF you do go ahead, get an independent EQUINE specialist vet and get bloods taken AFTER you have spent a lot of time on the internet checking his history/record and contacting previous owners - details of which you can get from his passport.
 

ihatework

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From what you are saying it's not sounding to me like a good buy.
Get the horses record and get an experienced trainer to check him out for you
 

FestiveFuzz

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I will be getting Liphook to do the vetting and trust my trainer who came to the viewing with me, but yes I'm a little apprehensive about the lack of passport. Apparently it was left back in the office but I'm still waiting 2 days later.
 

FfionWinnie

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Don't vet him until you've had a copy of the passport emailed to you and you've checked the competition record. He is just a 13yr old horse until you see evidence he knows his job and is really that age etc.
 

FlyingCircus

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Why is it you were looking at/interested in two VASTLY different horses?
One sounded fancily bred and a challenge. One is supposedly a schoolmaster.

Are you sure you won't get bored with a schoolmaster? Given you were looking for one that wasn't the finished product previously...
 
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