Really Frustrated with Napping Teaching a horse to gallop?

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BAYSCAN

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Hi
I am looking for ANY advice at all...
Before I start this horse has been seen by pracitcally every vet/saddler/dentist/TTT /physio/chiro in our area and no one can find ANYTHING physically wrong with him.

I have a very good, very well bred horse who cost me quite a bit of money as a foal. He is now 5 and was broken coming into his 4th year.
He is not a confident horse and his nature is quite stressy, spooky, but sharp(or sensitive).
But he naps like an absolute goodun. He has never gone forward properly ever since he was broken - don't get me wrong he will go - but he never moves 'freely' forward giving him a 'wooden' effect when he is moving.
I have been given lots of contradictory advice as what to do.

I am very much a believer of the classical way of training so for the past 4 or 5 months i have just been concentrating on the suppleness and trying to 'build' on what he offers me - but sometimes if he spooks or another horse comes near him he will nap anyway despite how well he is going at that point...

My friend who is very good rider/trainer said that the classical approach is fine, but if he will not go when he is told that is what I should work on first - she said he is taking the pee and always dictating HOW I can ride HIM... she says he is only going in a way which suits him and if I push for more and he doesn't like it - he tells me where to go - which is true I suppose.

She said I need to get him on the beach - get him on the gallops and just get him when i put the leg on it means go.
So far I agree with this but my horse is the most horrible nappiest thing when i ride him like this - I took him to a gallops and he spent most of his time bucking and spinning. He gets so tense when I tell him off with the stick making going forward even more difficult cos he's so tense and stiff.

My problem is - I have never in all the time I have owned him seen him gallop and truly let go - even loose in the field he canters round - quite fast - but is more bouncy like a bambi - because he is tense. The only time i could imagine him really shifting is if u turned him out by himself and brought all the other horses in - like i say he does not have much confidence on his own - but this would be a tense panicky movement rather than just 'opening' up.

Another well known trainer had me attacking him with the stick/leg to go forward, but he just bucks and bucks and will rear and buck (even tries to nap onto people stood in the middle) - and even when i get him to go - he doesn't just 'go' he still feels like he is holding himself. But then I make him SO tense I can't actually move a muscle cos he will run off with me (but still holding himself!). I hate attacking him, I feel so bad and guilty but I am open to advice of more experienced people and if it will genuinely work I will keep at it - cos in the long run it is better for him that say ending up in tin of winalot!!

Can you teach a horse like this to gallop/go? If so HOW?!?!

Thankyou for reading - u can have a piece of my family sized galaxy caramel if u get this far (although - it was to cheer myself up!!) :P
 
Sorry I know you have had him checked, but it does sound very much like there is something physically wrong with him to be that unwilling to let go ever.

I would get him to a lameness specialist, and get a full work out... sorry
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You're going to get three billion replies telling you it must be physical, so I will kick off by asking whether or not the vets have scoped him for ulcers? (Sorry).
 
Was he alone or in company on the gallops? (And it is something they have to learn to do, but doing it in company helps.)
 
Have you tried working him upsides another horse on the gallops? This approach worked wonders for mine, who was also quite stuffy, nappy and backward thinking.

I am very lucky that my OH has an ex racehorse who was perfect for the job. Initially we started them fairly slowly just a canter and then gradually started to open them up more over a period of time.
It has definitely really helped mine and taught him how to open up his shoulder and lengthen his stride when he gallops. Don't know whether it is coincidental but since doing this he has been far less nappy!
 
Yeh he has been scoped for ulcers which came back clear - he is not fed anything other than adlib forage and is turned out regularly too.
After he was broken and 'going' he was turned away.
I had the vet do a full lameness work up about 6 weeks ago - nothing - this included blood test - he is not aneamic and liver/kidneys all fine. I have spent so much money (against vets advice!!) trying to find something wrong with him - there honestly isn't. I had full xrays when he was 4 - clear.
 
Thankyou for ur replies Sally and Dragon!!
This has really made me think!
This is a good point I have taken him both on his own and with company!
The first time I took him with company and he is happier following will not go alongside and NO way infront also he won't go straight he always spooking (at the rubber or the fence or some other inane object) - even when following - maybe I should get my friend to go a bit faster...
And actually he is a LOT more difficult to get him to go on his own - he will 'go' to a point but holds himself all the time.
I didn't know whether it was better just to try to get him to go on his own a bit first before I try and follow something else??
 
Yes I agree hunting could work.

Or the other way if he is really really stressy would maybe a calmer help him?

I really feel for you having a mare that was behaving exactly the same
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but this was all down to hormones, now we have them sorted she is fine thats why im suggesting the calmer really.
 
Hi - Spotted Cat I have been told lots of times to abandon hope with him!!
But he is a dressage horse - but it is important for him to do it well and he will never go correctly if he won't just go forward freely.
Its not all he 'can't ' i don't kid myself he is very stubborn natured and not as 'rideable' as some - but if he would just GO he would be excellent!!
Hacking - he is excellent following - ha - but naps onto the other horse if asked to lead.
So I hack him on his own - and he is spooky but he will go - all beit very tense and reluctantly and if something REALLY frightens him he will spin around but he doesn't go to take off for home - he feels like he wants to but just doesn't let go!
 
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The first time I took him with company and he is happier following will not go alongside

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But he will do in time. Please don't take offence - but it sounds as if your frustrations with him are manifesting themselves in his tension and unhappiness in ridden work. He is only 5 and some horses take longer to mature than others.

You do have to teach them to gallop - and they will always work better with another horse. Once he gets the idea he will go upsides the other horse, and it will get to the point where he is starting to want to go in front. But it can take time, and won't happen overnight. Like anything else it's about practice. And if you take him once or twice a week - he'll soon get the message.

I'm not a tree hugger - but the instructor that wanted you to beat him in to working should be shot. You want the horse on side, and the fastest way to get them to work against you is to punish them for something they simply don't understand.

He sounds young, confused and not terribly happy. And I'm sure a different approach will work wonders.
 
The thing is, right now he's not an anything horse, is he? Having wasted 2 years of my life with a horse that just did not want to do the job, I wouldn't do it again.

Looking back - when he was backed was there any issue? I wonder if it is worth just turning him away for a min of 6 months and then treating him like an unbacked youngster. You don't get many who are difficult like this from backing - and whilst there are a few for whom nothing bad has happened and there is nothing physically wrong, they are the exception not the rule IME.
 
ditto the hunting idea - he can follow and learn to gallop and go forwards
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ETA - or i must say i agree with the thought of turning him away for a decent tmie too - he may just be too immature?
 
You could have been writing about my horse tbh, I had / have one just like this and have taken the decision he just doesn't want to be ridden and he is retired essentially.

I realised I didn't want the emotional thing of will he / won't he today so thats it for him. He's nine now and people always said give him time, he's young etc but I think even at a young age they should show some signs of co-operating with you, some small glimmer of hope. Mine was always professionally trained btw.
 
i had a mare like this, also a dressage horse who was always of the nappy/stuffy inclination. we tried her on the gallops and even if everyone else belted off and left her she would only do a stuffy *half gallop* with lots of tail swishing, like you i spent ££££ looking for problems and got the all clear time and time again.

she is now a broodmare and will never be ridden again-thats tells you all you need to know. TBH i would never again battle for that long against a crap work ethic and lack of genuine temperament. i wasted 4 years on her. i now have 5yo who although sharp is the most genuine and giving horse iv ever sat on.

cut your losses and sell would be my advise, he really sounds like he will never lose this stuffyness.
 
Ditto,

Although these aren't stories you will want to hear I also wasted 10's of 1,000's giving this horse every opportunity to turn a corner with some excellent trainers. never again, why persevere with a demon when there are so many nice uncomplicated ones out there.
 
Me three.

Never, ever again. I spent a fortune at vets/trainers, everything. Then I got rid and got a nice uncomplicated horse who went Novice in his second season eventing despite neither of us having evented before.
 
he sounds scared and wimpy. will he hack out happily with a person walking ahead/beside him to give him confidence? if so, i'd do that for a while, it doesn't give them the "sticking to my herd" excuse, it gradually bolsters their confidence because walker can gradually move away and back a little, but be there to encourage him to them instantly if necessary.
i echo the suggestion of hunting, it's a big whizzy party all about going forward and can be the making of them, i'd just make sure you go with a rock-solid reliable nanny who swears on their life not to abandon you no matter what...
he's still only a baby, and wimpish one at that. i have one the same here, she'll just take lots of time.
 
i sympathise with you, and the thought of you going on the beach trying to gallop reminds me of mine!! Its not the nicest feeling going 'up'; backwards; round in circles etc when you're just trying to go forwards!!
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Yes there is the option of selling, but if that isnt possible or you want to try and get through it, have you considered natural horsemanship? If someone had mentioned that to me before I probably would have rolled my eyes, but since having my nappy horse assessed and a quick lesson, its done us both wonders. Remarkable improvement in just an hour or so.

I know that if I want to event this year and get round the XC course without napping, I probably need to spend a few weeks going right back to the basics, looking at things from a different angle with the help of this trainer.

What area are you from? This particular guy who I had out to see me is an australian horse trainer, and to be honest, Ive not yet heard of a horse that he hasnt sorted out. Many well known eventers / trainers use him with the 'difficult' ones.

If you have nothing to lose, then its probably worth a try. Its not about beating them in to submission, but trying to understand why they do what they do, and pick up on the tiniest of things that could set off a napping session.
 
I had a horse like this years ago & hated her. She was a well bred Hannoverian and put me off warmbloods for life.
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There was no point trying force or any of the usual techniques when she planted - I didn't want her to learn to rear or get into a fight I might lose cause she was for resale. I did have one battle with her and broke a whip on her - what was the point of that!
I hacked her on a long rein in company in completely non stressful situations for months. She had to learn to trust me and to enjoy getting out and about and being brave.
I also did groundwork with her to build our relationship a bit.
After about 5 months of letting her remain at the back, one day I asked her to lead, she instinctively napped and I made her lead with the whip & legs. By this time, she was far more obedient and disciplined and generally bolder & she happily lead & hacked alone after that.

I think what I'm trying to say is to give your horse time and pick your battles. If your mare is a dressage horse, does it matter if she won't go in the lead on hacks yet? Try and build some trust before you put too much pressure on and definitely try galloping etc with others so it is just fun for her and not stressful.
 
Do you have access to a double ring or something similar? If so..put him in there, and chase him with the whip until he really gallops..its not under saddle, no..but it'll help him to go forwards.

I dunno..just another thing to try. It might not work, but it won't do any harm to give it a bash.

Also, could you free jump him (I mean small)? Sometimes it gets them forward thinking because they enjoy it, and it helps to free them up because they have no choice but to use themselves.
 
Novice team chasing? Go round at the back.

To be frank though, it sounds like ongoing confidence boosting is required, not too much school work and some "playing".

Have you tried "whipping up" with your voice (I mean in a fun way, not an aggressive way). Having someone on the ground and lots of titbits and praise when they're getting it right (even if that just means getting off your leg!) can really help.

Spookiness I think is one of those things that settles down over time and exposure with most horses.

Have you tried getting up out of the saddle and using very light, quick aids to get bursts of energy, then praising him, letting him come back for a rest and starting again?
 
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hammiehamlet, what is his name please, out of interest? good solid recommendations always welcome! thanks.

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Hi,

This is his website:

http://www.australianhorsetraining.co.uk/

As I said, I only had one lesson, and although she didnt 'nap' with me on that day (typical mare... knew she'd do the 'butter wouldnt melt trick'
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) , he could instantly see how she would be a napper. Silly things like trying to move off when you go to get on (even just taking one step forward), resisting (even just a tail swish) when I asked her to move away from my leg... leading her and seeing how she didnt follow on instantly etc etc.. Sounds really obvious stuff, but its so easy to get bogged down with more technical things, that you can forget about the basics ... or not even realise what basics need to be established first if that makes sense?
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I now do 5 mins of ground work before I get on and it makes a massive difference! If she then goes to nap with me when I hack her out, I can stop it happening quite quickly as he made me focus on the small things... ie the slightest drop of the shoulder, swinging out of the quarters.

He wants to have her for a few weeks to really get the basic training right, and I may do this if I can find the money and time, as I would want to be there watching and learning as much as possible.
 
I think you have to look at what you have got in simple terms, if you are sure there is nothing phyically wrong with him.

Young horse who is mentally and physically immature, obviously lacking in confidence, probably combined with a stubbon attiude (hell we've all got em) and too much of a laid back approach to work...lazyness (again some horses just are), I think the combination off all that is working against you and the horse getting any further, and trying to push for more...like taking him on the gallops will just make him worse he'll really turn sour on you then.

Turn him away for 6 months, take things back to basics and just work on getting him going correctly just in walk, if he's sensitve well bred type, if you paid a lot of money on him, whats the rush? his day may come, but it might not be until he's a 7 yr old.
 
We had a mare like this, she never gave any more than she wanted and if you put her under any pressure with the leg/whip she would reverse/buck/kick out very dramatically, nothing made her move forwards, infact it all just made her worse. Eventually we got to the bottom off it by screaming at the top of our lungs (nothing in particular just as loud as possible from all directions) She shot forward like a rocket, so we then shut up and praised her, next time she started feeling sluggish/slightly backward we started screaming again, and off she went again!!

For about 2 weeks we used purely the voice (very loudly!) to get her to move, no leg/stick was used at all. She improved so quickly and then we started introducing legs again, screaming when she backed off the pressure, etc....


Now she goes forward into a lovely contact and respects the stick and the legs, without any problems.


Might not work on yours, but you never know. Interestingly met this ones half brother and the owner had had to do exactly the same thing with him!!
 
I had a youngster who was very similar to this and the thing that turned him around was jumping. Where as he would nap/spin/buck in the arera schooling, the jump gave him something to focus on and he found he loved it. It is also much more black and white for them to understand than dresasage schooling (ie you praise them when they go over the jump and don't worry about outline etc) I know he is a dressage horse but it could be worth a go trying. just start very small and build up an nice easy grid. I also agree with taking him hunting or on the gallops in company but in the end you need him to go forward for himself and jumping in arean could help. Good Luck
 
I'd go right back to basics and do loads of long lining; it's great for nappy, stufffy horses as your driving them forwards from behind using the ridden aids as well as body language, it helps build confidence, and you can keep it really varied. Once he's more onwards, start riding again, and keep it simple: leg means go forward, and keep you aids to a minimum, so he's really listening.

Then if he's using spooking as an excuse, then do some basic desensitisation in hand and on the long lines. Good luck with him
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long reining is a good idea, it's been the making of a lot of tricky horses. have someone at his head to begin with, extra confidence giver.
using voice is a good idea too, in my experience horses don't object to it or get offended by it as they can with legs or whip, a really stern loud GO FORWARD or WALK ON the moment they think a backwards thought, and then tons of praise the moment they do it right, can work wonders - worked last week for a friend of mine whose eventer had started taking the mickey and napping a lot.
 
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