Red Bag Delivery Video

Oh, and before anyone says anything, this is purely for reference as to what a red-bag might look like.

There are plenty of other elements and actions in this video which I would not recommend! Perhaps we could have an entire other thread on that!
 
so what is the correct course of action in a red bag birth?(apart from panic
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If I've got it right, it was what they were doing AFTER cutting the red bag that was wrong. ie all the messing about with the foal. AP please clarify.
 
Apologies for not making it clear what I mean:

1) In the case of a red bag delivery, it is imperative that the placenta/chorion must be cut/torn and the foal removed as quickly as possible - so in that respect they appear to do the right thing.

2) Squealing, shouting, and panicking is generally not recommended. Also praying while the mare is trying to foal does not guarantee as smooth foaling!
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3) In general, interference should be kept to a minimum, and clearly there is a good deal of interference shown in the video. Allow the mare to bond with the foal - don't hog it or try to carry it away like these folks seem to do.

4) Tie the mare's placenta to itself to avoid it being stepped on, and torn.

5) See all that blood that comes out of the umblicus when they cut it? I would tend to leave it longer and allow blood to transfer from the placenta to the foal... I'm sure foalie would have been grateful for it. The cord will normally begin to close on its own and break when the mare gets up. There is no hurry.

6) Treat the stump asap - didn't see this in the video. Discussions come up all the time about the best thing to use.

7) Wash the mare's udder with warm watter and pat dry if possible as it has been shown to reduce incidence of infection in neonates.

8) Leave them alone! Excessive interference can lead to higher incidence of foal rejection.


If anyone has anything to add, or anything they do that is different, then please tack it on to this thread.

Cheers
 
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If I've got it right, it was what they were doing AFTER cutting the red bag that was wrong. ie all the messing about with the foal. AP please clarify.

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IMHO, these are the bad points:

1. The bloody racket! Must have stressed the mare no end! The golden rule is DON'T PANIC (and shut up!)

2. I would have preferred someone to keep the mare down during delivery (easy enough with something that small!) A hanging foal with back legs still inside the mare will kick back and can damage the mare.

3. Tying off the cord merely ties IN any infection. Better to let it bleed a little - pinch it with fingers for a few minutes if it's bleeding too much, and then treat it for infection.

4. Clutching the foal like that made it harder for the foal to breathe. Ideally, with a foal that small, I'd have had a hay bale and laid the foal on it with head off the edge, to encourage drainage of any fluid left in the windpipe.

I've only had two red bags - both MUCH bigger mares - and I was on my own for both. I though the cutting of the red bag looked a little careless - but it worked. They were lucky the foal breathed so easily (and kept breathing despite their best efforts to crush its rib cage!
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I'm sure AP will have spotted somethin I missed!
 
Agree with AP, their actual 'delivery' (other than the screaming...poor mare) was fairly textbook.

Cutting of the cord, particularly at this stage a real no no IMO - we never have to cut them, they will break of their own accord and then you have minimal bleeding.
 
Well thank you all, I found that very interesting although I think I won't be in there panicking, I'll be outside being sick!
A lot of the foaling vids on youtube are edited so its hard to tell how long each bit takes. Also everyone seems to pull the foal out - how ever do they manage in the wild - some mares must push them out!
Not including the above vid in that, obviously that was different.
 
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Well thank you all, I found that very interesting although I think I won't be in there panicking, I'll be outside being sick!
A lot of the foaling vids on youtube are edited so its hard to tell how long each bit takes. Also everyone seems to pull the foal out - how ever do they manage in the wild - some mares must push them out!
Not including the above vid in that, obviously that was different.

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I have noticed that they all seemed to get pulled out as well. Had me a little worried actually as my books tell you not to unless necessary. I did find one yesterday that did it all by herself though.
 
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Well thank you all, I found that very interesting although I think I won't be in there panicking, I'll be outside being sick!
A lot of the foaling vids on youtube are edited so its hard to tell how long each bit takes. Also everyone seems to pull the foal out - how ever do they manage in the wild - some mares must push them out!
Not including the above vid in that, obviously that was different.

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I have noticed that they all seemed to get pulled out as well. Had me a little worried actually as my books tell you not to unless necessary. I did find one yesterday that did it all by herself though.

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The books will tell you that, as an 'amateur' attempting to 'help' is likely to do more damage than good.
However, done correctly and at the right time, most mares appreciate a little help. It is something that needs to be left to the professionals though, my husband has now foaled about 500 foals over the years, so has become fairly good at telling when a helping hand is welcome
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The other thing to remember is that horses foaling in the wild are a. often hardy native types which are generally better at this kind of thing (last time I checked TBs and warmbloods are totally domesticated animals!), and b. haven't been fed up all through their pregnancy so the foals are normally smaller!

I do agree though, there is a lot of strange stuff on the internet, and best not to take too much of it as examples!
 
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A lot of the foaling vids on youtube are edited so its hard to tell how long each bit takes. Also everyone seems to pull the foal out - how ever do they manage in the wild - some mares must push them out!


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A normal, 'easy' delivery when everything goes right won't take much longer than 10 minutes from the appearance of 2 front feet and the nose, particularly if the mare has a helping hand. An amateur 'helping' can do more harm than good, but if you know what you're doing and do it gently and quietly, you make delivery easier for mare and foal - and the mare isn't left too tired to tend the foal and get 'mothered up'. Mares who have a long and protracted delivery are - IME - more likely to be reluctant to accept the foal.

If there is dystocia - through an overly big foal or a mispresentation - you have a much longer job and - in general - the longer it takes, the less likely you are to have a live foal and a healthy mare at the end.

The BIG difference in the wild is that the mares are leaner and fitter, and the foals not as big - no stud mix/stud balancer in the wild. The other big difference in the wild is that only the mare cares if foal dies - or she dies!
 
Thankyou, that was interesting to have seen a red bag delivery. But that level of interferance surely wasnt necessary ie. Hanging onto the poor foal for longer than necessary, the screaming, shouting & praying.. poor mare!
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I think we're pretty much in agreement on this one JG
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I see! You must have posted while I was typing - could have saved myself some time there! I confess I DID once tie a naval, but it was a HUGE colt with a cord thicker than my thumb. The mare leapt to her feet and broke it rather fast - so it poured blood at a horrendous rate (of course in that case the placenta hadn't already separated!) And I plastered it with Terramycin spray immediately!
 
Dear GOD!!!! That was APPALLING!!!

1) STFU!!! They would ALL get kicked out of any stable/barn where I was foaling!!

2) you NEVER EVER CUT the actual red bag! In fact you shouldn't use anything sharper than a sterile hoof pick. The risk of cutting through the amnion and potentially the foot behind is too great - seen it happen, done by a so called 'professional' who preferred not to listen to my advice. Yes the placenta is tough, of course it is, as you aren't presented with the placental star, which is where the foals foot would normally break the placenta, breaking the waters.

3) If you HAVE to foal a mare standing up, then yes have someone hold her head during foaling, whilst you try to support if - IF you can! (Most TB foals weigh approx 55kgs at birth.....) But only do so for a few minutes and allow the mare to turn to greet her foal, breaking the umbilical cord naturally, which is SAFER for the foal and possible infection. The stump would probably need pinching for a wee bit and then treating immediately!!

An old job title of mine on a large TB stud in the UK was Foaling Manager, previous to that I had been Assistant Foaling Manager on one of the World's largest nurseries in the USA. I was in Kentucky, foaling, during MRLS (Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome) in 2001/2002. One of the main problems associated with MRLS, apart from dystocia, is red bag deliveries. I have seen more than my fair share of them and I am simply horrified by that video! That foal was damned lucky - or maybe that woman's prayers were answered?
 
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That was very interesting - if not very manic ! - now I have a very numpty question, what does a Red Bag Delivery mean please in thicko language ............................ thankyou.

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The placenta - 'red bag' is the outer 'container' that houses the foal - and nourishes it - throughout the pregnancy. There is an inner sac (white bag) in which the foal is normally delivered, with the placenta staying IN the mare (continuing to supply oxygenated blood via the umbilical cord.) In normal deliveries, the placenta only comes out AFTER the foal is born then called 'the afterbirth'!
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IF - for some reason - the placenta separates prematurely during the pre-labour - the placenta comes out with the foal still in it. It has become detached from the uterus and the foal MUST be delivered VERY quickly or it suffers lack of oxygen and dies. (Unattended red baag deliveries usually result in a dead foal - even if the foal is still alive when it hits the ground, the bag doesn't break and the foal smothers.)

A red bag delivery is easy to spot because it IS red - as opposed to the normal 'white bag'.
 
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That was very interesting - if not very manic ! - now I have a very numpty question, what does a Red Bag Delivery mean please in thicko language ............................ thankyou.

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Placenta previa, as it's properly known, has many causes and not all proven. Basically, the main reason for a red bag is that the foal's leading foot does not rupture the placental star, which is the area of placenta in front of the cervix and as such is the weakest point of the placenta. IME, dealing with MRLS, placentitis is was the leading cause. Placentitis being an infection in the womb, that in many cases causes the placenta to thicken - though not always.

There was a theory thrown around in KY about fescues in the grazing being a cause too, but I know of no research to back this up.
 
Haven't watched the vid yet but did experience a red bag delivery a few years bag without knowing at the time what was happening.
Had rung vet but realised something was really going wrong and I could see foals movement so used the only sterile implement I had to hand, some nail scissors to cut open the bag. The young male groom stood behind me promptly passed out and fell into the bushes (I ignored him!) and I gently helped the mare get the foal out. By the time the cord had broken (didn't interfere other than rub foal dry with towels and dress stump) the vet had arrived and congratulated me on my actions, saying quite a few foals die unless help arrives.
So glad there is a vid to watch as I genuinely didn't have a clue, and I wouldn't wish the experience on anyone else.
My vet got a bottle of Jameson's for arriving post haste and the foal grew up to be perfect..
 
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