Regurgitation - Raw feeders

0310Star

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My Rottweiler puppy has a bit of an issue with regurgitating her food. She is fed Raw and is now on 1lb twice a day (she is 7 months and about 23kg now so adjust her food with her Weight). The vet has said she is sure its due to her wolfing her food down and over stretching her stomach as she regurgitates it and then re-eats it and then is fine.

We have got her an anti gulp bowl which slows her down, and she has each meal in 2 portions at again to slow her down but we are still having the problem, food is also at room temperature. She is a bit of a wimp and whenever she feels she needs to be sick she howls and howls until she regurgitates then re-eats it and is fine.

I did a little test the other day, and I am sure she is making herself sick. It might sounds really daft, and far too intelligent of a thing for her to do, but she will only do it if she goes into the living room. If we close the door and she is in any other part of the house she is fine. If we let her into the living room and play with her with her toys, she is fine... In my mind she cant surely NEED to regurgitate if she is only doing it in one room? She stands with her head down to the ground, pacing around and almost like she is making herself do it?

Any ideas to get her out of this is much appreciated, her howling must really be annoying my neighbors!! :)
 

Umbongo

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Have you tried feeding her from a height? Such as feeding from a bowl on a stand, or feeding on the stairs? I have known of a couple of puppies with megaoesophagus where their oesophagus is overly large or stretched, the food just sits there and then the dog throws it back up.

Saying that, the fact she only does it in one room is a bit strange. Has she always done it, and has she always been fed the same diet?
 

0310Star

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Yeah she has always done it, and has been on raw since she was about 3 months as dry food doesn't really agree with her. The vet says she is looking fantastic and that the fact she is regurgitating and re-eating immediately after instead of actually being sick to her means its where she is over stretching her stomach. She wolfs her food down so fast, and the bowl has slowed her down but not massively. I have also contacted the meat supplier and they have had no issues at all with the actual met itself.

I will try from a height and see what that does. Its almost like she thinks when she goes into the living room she is going to be sick and panics which then in turn makes her regurgitate it, if we shut her out she is fine until you let her back in, no matter how long its beenm and then she does it. Maybe we just need to try and preoccupy her until she consistently stops and stops thinking of doing it every time she goes into that room. I think I will speak to the vet again and see what she suggests!

Thanks for the reply :)
 

LBF

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It does sound a bit like a learnt behaviour, from before you got the anti-gulp bowl. Maybe change up the routine, feed somewhere different or at a slightly different time? You could get a big kong and stuff food in, I sometime freeze to slow down even more! They can definitly make themselves sick, I've seen mine walking around, head down and kind of grimacing if that makes sense! What's she like with bones?
 

SusieT

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I personally would want a few investigations done to rule out megaoesopahagus or congenital problem if she's always done it as its not normal
 

0310Star

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It does sound a bit like a learnt behaviour, from before you got the anti-gulp bowl. Maybe change up the routine, feed somewhere different or at a slightly different time? You could get a big kong and stuff food in, I sometime freeze to slow down even more! They can definitly make themselves sick, I've seen mine walking around, head down and kind of grimacing if that makes sense! What's she like with bones?
That is exactly what she is like, head down, walking around, making salivary noises (best way I can describe!) But as soon as you play with her or go outside or a different room she stops. I am going to call the vet today as she wasn't in yesterday and she's the only one I can talk to about raw, see what she suggests!
I think it must be a learnt behavior though. If she genuinely needed to regurgitate then where she does it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference...
 

Cinnamontoast

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Smaller more frequent meals and leave her in a room where she doesn't regurgitate, hopefully if it is a learned behaviour, you can break the habit. I'd want a scope to check she hasn't got an issue with her gullet, tho.
 

Lunchbox legend

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Could you put her food in 'bite sized' pieces in different places around the house or garden so she has to find them? I do this with my dog sometimes to slow him down and to give him something to think about.

I think it's a good idea to keep her away from the place where she's sick a) in case it's a learnt behaviour so you break the pattern and b) while you're getting confirmation from the vet that she's physically ok.
 

0310Star

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Thanks everyone, I am waiting for the vet to call me back again about it to see what she suggests. The last few days we have managed to get her attention as soon as she is looking like she is wanting to regurgitate, and as soon as you start playing with her she forgets all about it and there is no more fuss so I am pretty certain it is a learnt behavior.

I will see what the vet says when I speak to her hopefully today :)

Lunchbox legend - I would try putting bite size portions around the house or garden but Poppy is far too intelligent for her own good.... She wont bother looking for things like that or do anything too complicated (if you could call a Kong complicated?!) as she knows if she leaves it all eventually someone will do it for her, she isn't food orientated at all so doesn't bother her is she goes without! It is quite frustrating lol
 

Antw23uk

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I would raise her feeding bowl to chest height and also use a couple of kongs. Our 11 month old puppy also on RAW has one of those stag bones which is now fairly well chewed so we stuff that with food and also stuff her kong with food and any remaining meat we cover them both with the meat in a bowl so she has to lick the 'free' meat and then she will remove her bone and kong to eat. Most importantly it takes her time to eat which was our main issue.

You say she wont use a kong because she knows if she waits long enough someone will feed her? That's got to be the poorest excuse ever, hahaa .. She will get hungry enough trust me. You just have to stop being a wimp and giving in, she isn't going to starve ;) She will get hungry enough eventually and if the vet says how well shes looking then going a couple of days without food isn't going to hurt her. Every time she looks to you for food offer the kong and make a game of it. She will soon get the hang of it and should look forward to it. Try some peanut butter in the kong as well. Not too often but they tend to love it :)

Oh and no posting without a puppy pic to go with it :)

 

0310Star

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Ant, your pup is gorgeous!!
Yes yes, I could well be being a wimp and telling myself she will leave it, but you're right, she wont starve! lol I will give the kong another go starting tonight! I will also get a stand and bring her food up to chest height and see if that helps.
To be fair, she really is a total wimp anyway which could well be contributing.

puppy pic...


 

Antw23uk

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Awww she is beautiful .. and I know im right, she isn't going to starve, lol ;)

It doesn't even need to be 'tough love' really, just don't give in. Make it all a game and that its really exciting to get food from the kong (being hungry does help motivate them to use it)

Which RAW food do you feed or do you make your own? We use Nutriment complete raw food for the dog and the two cats. Feeding raw is awesome :) I left her in the garden the other day with a massive raw frozen lambs neck and she loved it :) The cats love a good chicken wing throughout the summer and I love hearing them crunching on the bones and seeing how much they have to work for their food :)

 

0310Star

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Poppy has minced meat/bone/offal from a dog and cat meat supplier. She has a huge variety of flavors and is doing really well on it, she loves the meat which is nice to see as when she was on kibble she wouldn't really eat at all!
I guess I will just need to be a bit more inventive when it comes to feeding her, and make her work for it a bit more!

Have just spoken to the vet and she has said to just keep an eye on her as she is sure this is a learnt behavior, just to mix it all up a bit and to put it in her kong etc!

Do you find they manage to get it all out of the kong? We have the red one, not sure which size that is!

Any other ideas of what to do with her meat to make it more interesting? I would gives her things like lambs necks but she is so fussy, we tried her with whole pigs feet the other week... she just looked at it as if to say "I am NOT eating that!" and walked off... the tart!
 

Antw23uk

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She doesn't really sound like shes hungry enough ... Are you spoiling her? hehee :)

There is a brand, cant think what its called but the meat and veg comes in blocks which at a push you can get into the medium kong (we have the red one also) and they are frozen so I will often leave her with a couple of them pushed into the kong at lunchtime when I pop home.

I would start small, mainly so you don't waste money and always supervise her with bones. Initially we put Bella in her crate with the raw bone/ cows oesophagus and lambs neck as she was the same, she just kind of looked at it and then walked off but a few minutes in the crate with it and she was well on her way to munching through it and now she has them in the garden from frozen as they last longer.

I also make ice blocks in small plastic tubs which the food comes in. I make up some chicken stock, let it go cold then add to tub with some of the blocks of frozen meat and a scattering of cat biscuits, put in freezer and when frozen I turn it out on the lawn and she loves chewing and licking it and getting the meat blocks and cat biscuits as it melts, its really good work for her and keeps her cool as well. Our cats have the occasional few cat biscuits which is why we have them, lol .. I'm so stingy I literally count out six tiny biscuits each for them as I hate commercial pet food so much!

Does that supplier put all the vegetables in as well or do you add them yourself? bit confused!

Oh and ETA yes she rarly leaves anything in the kong but if she does its just a quick wash out under the tap. The longer it takes them to eat it the better so don't make it easy for her.
 
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Laura2408

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I would have her xrayed if I was you. I have a megaesophagus dog and regurgitation is the most common symptom (especially if it started from a puppy)

I have never heard of a dog behaviourally regurgutating and regurg can lead to aspiration pneumonia very easily so I would want this sorted ASAP if she were mine.
 

0310Star

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Thanks Laura, having been to and spoken to the vets very regularly she is almost certain it could not be megaesophagus or anything like that due to the fact it is only in 1 room and you can keep her attention away from doing it. She hasn't done it in about 4 days now as we have been keeping her attention off of it and last night she didn't even attempt it. The vet has just advised to keep an eye and has said it is more than likely a behavioral thing.
When she goes in to be neutered (hopefully not too much longer away that she has her first season) we are going to have her checked all over while she is under because I want to have all of her joints checked due to her breed anyway so she will be checked then.

Ant.. I tried the kong and she licked it for all of 2 minutes and then wandered indoors and went to sleep... tried again half hour later and she did the same... she really is difficult!! lol

The meat we get is meat only, she doesn't have veg at all in her diet (again discussed with vet) its basically the meat/bone/offal all minced up and frozen in 1lb packs. She has a selection of all sorts really, chicken & lamb, beef, chicken & liver, chicken & oily fish, beef & heart, lamb, turkey, choice chunks... basically she eats better than us :p

The block of ice is a really good idea though!! What are the frozen blocks of meat and veg you are talking about? And where can I get them? I will freeze her a block later of stock! She absolutely loves chickens feet, do you think I could freeze some of those in it ok without them going funny?
 

Antw23uk

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Yeah I think they would work well although I hate chicken feet, yuk, lol!

Oh ok, hadn't heard of just a meat diet for dogs, all the research I did was based around raw meat/ offel/ bone ect with added vegetables and occasional fruit to make it a complete food. Our cats are on meat only but they are designed for that where as dogs would eat a number of different foods from meat to plants

Im not saying your vet is wrong .. blimey a vet keen on a raw diet is hard to find, all of mine over the years tut and roll their eyes at me.

The blocks of meat are by Natures Menu and they will do stuff like Venison with blueberry/ duck with plum/ rabbit with cranberry and they also do a range of frozen bones like venison/ lambs neck/ cows oesophagus

We buy from Unique Pets in Aylesbury as they are local and have everything in stock to save us on deliver but we used to buy direct from Natural Instinct. I would just double check your research, im sure a meat only diet isn't suitable for dogs.
 

0310Star

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Poppy absolutely loves a chickens foot, the only thing that keeps her quiet for longer than 5 minutes :)

I did all the same research with regards to veg/fruit but found it very conflicting until I actually spoke to people doing the diet and the vet (only 1 vet in my surgery which has any know-how on raw, she is brilliant too! and very encouraging of it) Our vet is very happy for us to feed meat only, I was so confused by it all I called her and asked, she said you can add it but they don't NEED it as such, our pup has a thing about eating grass and she said what she would be eating in the garden would be quite adequate lol She looks great for it too.
I used to add in veg but she ate round it and left it anyway so figured not a lot of point if she isn't eating it which is why I questioned it as I though she needed it added in. I found this quite an interesting read:
http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

One of my friends feeds raw too, the breeder of her newest dog suggested she kept him on raw when she bought him so she changed her other dog to it too, she also only feeds meat and both dogs are doing amazingly.

I think raw feeding is such an interesting subject, and a massive learning curve all the time!
 

sonjafoers

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0310Star we have fed all our rotties Natural Instinct, roughly 4 days a week the varieties that include veg and 3 days a week the 'pure' which has no veg in. I read somewhere that wild dogs would eat the intestines of 'grass' eating animals and would get the plant part of their diet that way - not sure if it's true but it seemed pretty logical to me! They get fish & bones/chicken carcusses/lambs necks etc alongside this.

Sorry to hear you're having this issue but it does seem a learnt behaviour - is she maybe a bit spoilt?!!! ( Of course, that's why we have them). Glad you posted pics, she is looking lovely.
 

0310Star

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We have only had 1 incident over the weekend so hopefully we are starting to get over the behavior. I think if it continues I will try her on Natural Instinct and see if that helps being a ready made meal as such. She is quite fussy unfortunately, I always try and get variety into her food but she turns her nose up at most things, sometimes I wonder if I would be better just giving her turkey all the time as that's her favourite lol

What would peoples thoughts be on 1 type of meat only like Turkey? For some reason I feel a bit bad just giving her one but I guess kibble fed dogs have the same thing all the time?

Also, can I ask where you get your Natural Instinct from? Everywhere I have seen seems really expensive!
 

Umbongo

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What would peoples thoughts be on 1 type of meat only like Turkey? For some reason I feel a bit bad just giving her one but I guess kibble fed dogs have the same thing all the time?
The thing with kibble is that it is a complete diet, and contains everything the dog needs. A diet consisting of only turkey is not a complete diet and will be lacking in vital vitamins/minerals (particularly important in a young growing puppy). Maybe give Natural instinct a try, but chopping and changing foods all the time can also create a fussy dog, as will pandering to them and letting them have what they want if they refuse the first option.

Have you tried offering the other foods, if she wont eat it take it away and offer it later? Keep doing this until she eats it, dogs tend to not starve themselves but could probably go 2 or 3 days until they will eat it. Also some dogs just don't have an appetite and don't really want to eat 2 meals a day. My dog could quite happily only eat once a day, or once every 2 days.

I would still be a little concerned about megaoesophagus at this stage, particularly as she has been doing this since a pup. I would guess that when you are getting her attention her head is up/raised and thus the food is able to move down the oesophagus easier? If it continues then I would push for an xray to rule this out.


PS she looks gorgeous! I love a good rottie!
 
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0310Star

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She is difficult as she has never been a massive lover of food. Our reason for going to raw in the first place was that she would just ignore kibble, she has a much bigger appetite with raw but still would quite happily go without food. Especially in this warm weather!

I would quite like to try Natural Instinct, the only thing putting me off is the price as she is having about 1kg a day over 2 meals currently at her growing portions which would mean quite a lot cost wise... are there any other brands/alternatives people can suggest which is complete but lower in cost? Maybe i am just looking in the wrong place and getting the higher end of prices!

I am quite confident it isn't megaoesophagus and so is the vet having checked her over thoroughly more than once and being updated via phone a lot, but will be keeping a close eye. If it is found to be that, what would need to be done to help solve it out of curiosity?
 

Umbongo

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Treatment depends on the cause. Normally can be managed with a change in diet to a semi-liquid diet, feeding from height, standing on stairs/step ladder for 15-30minutes after feeding, monitoring and treatment for any cases of aspiration pneumonia. Some puppies may outgrow the condition. Surgery can treat the type caused by vascular constriction of the oesophagus. Sometimes it may also be caused by an underlying disease, but normally the cause is unknown so careful management is usually the treatment.

Don't know much about raw I am afraid, the only other ones I know of are nature diet and honeys dog food? But I am sure other people on here may suggest some others. I have tried some of the Honeys food for my cat (they did a cat option before) and it looked ok!

I have also bought stuff from Zooplus before. They do some good deals and normally have money off etc.

ETA: You say your dog is regurgitating and not vomiting. Regurgitation is food that has not reached the stomache and is normally an immeadiate backflow of food up the oesophagus. Vomiting is the forceful ejection of food from the stomache. So the vets saying that the dog is regurgitating because she is stretching her stomache doesn't quite add up to me. I think without an xray your vet can't be 100% sure.
 
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0310Star

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She regurgitates but she forces it, its really hard to explain without seeing. She didn't used to do it until one day she ate really fast and regurgitated then when she was probably 3 months old, and ever since its like she panics whenever she eats her breakfast and dinner. Like I said, its so hard to explain over here but if you saw it you would see why we are so sure it isn't something physical. If she has other treats which aren't her dinner, she wont do it. If she is in any other room of the house than the living room where it first happened, she wont do it. If she is tired, she wont do it. If she is hyperactive, she wont do it. Its a difficult one!
 

0310Star

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Oh and she also wont do it with Kibble, so I am really hoping I wont have to go back to kibble!!
 

sonjafoers

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I get our Natural Instinct directly from them, they deliver the next day & the courier leaves it in our garage by the freezer. It is expensive I agree, Natures Menu is cheaper but also cheaper quality & depending on the product contains rice. I've tried Nutriment, it was ok but mine preferred the NI.

Our rot pup is still on 1.5kg a day and the bullie is on half a kilo a day so I know how it adds up but it's worth it if you can afford it imo. You can do days of chicken carcusses, sardines or similar and some offal so she wouldn't have to have the tubs 7 days a week. I do carcusses for breakfast every few days and then just use a 1kg tub between them for tea with some fish.

I wouldn't feed one protein type, try and mix it up if you can but you might have to be a bit 'harder' in your attitude for a while. We had a rottie bitch years ago who was so fussy with her food and as a result she was thinner than I would have liked so I pandered to her to get food in and it became a nightmare. It got to a point where she was refusing virtually everything except cooked human food and we were at our wit's end but a combination of having her spayed and switching to raw helped - we had to be firm mind you, if the food went down & she walked away then it got picked up and she went hungry.

Glad to hear the regurgitating has been less over the weekend, I do hope you get an answer or at least a solution soon.
 

0310Star

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Thanks Sonjafoers, I will speak to other half and we will decide whether or not we think its a good move to try, I guess it cant hurt! I am also quite thankful our rottie is fairly small for her age, although that could mean and all of a sudden spurt!! She is almost 8 months and just under 21kgs now :) She is fussy but generally she will eat it, even if she leaves it and comes back to it.

She just isn't food orientated at all... total pain when it comes to training having a puppy not interested in treats!!
 

sonjafoers

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I do feel your pain, ours was just the same until she was about 3 years old! You say she'll eat it even if she leaves it & comes back to it does that mean you leave it down if she walks away? Have you tried picking it up as soon as she walks away and then not giving her anything until next meal time?

If you decide to order NI make sure you look at the postage costs I think they're about £6 for a small order although if she likes it you can order in bulk & get free postage. Sometimes Nutriment do Starter Packs so you can try flavours with free postage - it is pretty much the same and great quality but mine didn't like some of the flavours. The thing I didn't like about it is you can only buy 500g packs or 1.4kg chubbs so for a dog on 1kg a day you've always got bits hanging about in the fridge.

ETA - I've just reread your weight, Bisto was 9 months old at the weekend and weighed in about a month ago at 46kg! He is much larger than any previous rottie we've had and definitely not overweight but he's tall and long in the body. He's also just starting to fill out so maybe Poppy will start to fill out soon and then be a bit more interested in food. Fingers crossed for you.
 
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0310Star

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I just have an awful feeling we will have to go back to kibble, I am just about to call the vet to discuss whether its worth a try as its awful having this all from her having a meal :(

Oh my, she really is small!! lol When we went to puppy training she was a lot smaller than the other rotties, people ask if she was the runt but as a baby puppy she was really big... god knows what has happened! She seems to go through phases of going up a bit, and then out a bit, then up a bit again, then out a bit again. She is still quite puppy looking... maybe a late bloomer :)
 

sonjafoers

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The rottie bitch we had who was fussy with her food was tiny, never got over about 38kg. Someone once asked me if she was a rescue & I was horrified, she just would not eat for the first few years but she was happy and healthy and that's what counts.

If she only regurgitates in one room and is being fussy rather than not being able to tolerate the food then it's surely just behavioural? If you'd prefer to feed raw maybe try NI or Nutriment before giving in to kibble but be firm and let her go hungry for a while - obviously I'm not saying starve her but it won't hurt to miss a meal if she walks away from it.

I'd willingly send you a couple of tubs of NI but it will be defrosted by the time it gets to you as I have no packaging so I don't think it's worth it - even if I do next day delivery it might be out too much in this hot weather if you're not there to collect it when it arrives. That's the last thing you need, she eats it but it makes her ill from being defrosted too long!!!
 
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