'Relax' your thigh/knee? Classical V conventional dressage - what do you do??

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Arkmiido

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I've been having training with a Mary Wanless coach, and with Mary herself, for a couple of years now. She trained with numerous classical riders, and teaches riders of all abilities to emulate the means by which *some* professionals get their results. If you watch top dressage riders, their thigh is firmly around the horse - not clamped (well, some are I guess..) but you can't see daylight. For riders with very high natural tone, this may feel 'relaxed' but to me, this involves a fair amount of effort of my wobbly bits. And their lower leg is away from the horse. Mary also teaches that your foot should be light in the stirrup so that you don't push your bottom out of the saddle...

So (I have a point here..) I had a lesson today with a local AI who specializes in flatwork and who is very well respected, and I like her generally. Since she is local and my RWYM coach is busy, I though, hey, why not, let's see what she makes of my warmblood and me, before our walk trot and prelim 18 on friday. (Before you think that sounds very feeble, FYI I haven't competed since I was 12 for a number of reasons involving lame or psycho horses, so I'm starting slow - just an outing to give him a trip in the lorry and something to focus on - we aren't aiming to win anything... :rolleyes:)

Watching me walk and trot round, her eyebrows were somewhat raised. "Relax your thigh!!" she kept shouting. "I should be able to get my hand in there". "I want to see your knees flapping" (!!!!) "You are working too hard" "He's going too slow" (I try very very hard to get him that slow, as though he pauses between each step, pinging on his hocks - at least while warming up cos otherwise I get trotted off with in a very fabulous extension, eyes on stalks...) "Grip with your lower leg and squeeze". "Take your knee off the saddle!!!" "Heels down" (which shoots my lower leg forward....)

So I did all this. Felt like a total numpty. Lost all control over his strides, his tempo, his impulsion, and also steering, which I have been so far doing with my thighs. She thought he looked much better?! Nearly died when he spooked. Does she really mean this? Do people actually ride successfully with baggy legs??! Have I misunderstood what she is saying? Her daughter just got 13 for her dressage at an ODE riding her warmblood just like this, so I guess it must work somehow...?!

She politely informed me that I would probably have to choose whether to go for conventional dressage instruction from her, or stick with my classical, because they were too far apart and opposed, which I kinda see. I would struggle to marry the two! She did great things for my accuracy, and for my upper body, and built my confidence up, cos she thought HE looked great! My sister, who has had similar training to me, but also training with a dressage rider (who works on very similar lines to Mary), had a lesson with another AI, and spent an hour on the lunge "We really need to work on your position" she said. "knee OFF!" She dropped my sisters stirrup 5 holes. Seriously. Poor girl had no chance with all that stretching of the leg down and growing tall... Mary wants thigh and lower leg at 45 degrees to the horizontal, maybe a little wider, but if legs are too vertical, they lose the power and weight distribution through your thigh. BUT maybe we've got it all wrong?

So people, all you dressage riders out there, what do you do with your thighs? Knee on or off? Do you engage your core muscles when you ride? Is your foot light or do you put as much weigh as possible in it?
I'm really interested to know because I'm really not sure which is the way forward, and I'd like to know what people out there are actually doing!! Would be helpful to know what level you ride at, if you don't mind saying... ;);)
 
Am not a dressage rider but last winter had some lunge lessons to work on my basic position. Went to a qualified instructor who is dressage orientated and the approach was to relax thighs and knees away from horse with very light weight into the stirrup and I must admit it made a lot of sense to me. I had to stop going for a non-horse related reason but fully intend to go back this winter and develop along these lines. I compete at high level but not dressage which is one the reasons I wanted to go back to basics. I come very much from the era of grip with the knees and fast show jumping ponies and horses so it was quite a different approach to me but I found it was very effective in making me use my lower leg. Will be interested to see other comments.
 
I will be watching the replies to this with interest.
In my experience classical and RWYM are not the same. Leg-wise they are poles apart.

I had a RWYM instructor for a couple of years who wanted my thighs and knees close to the saddle (not gripping, but toned). I now have a classical instructor (trained with a previous chief rider at SRS) who tells me to relax knee and thigh, take my upper legs away from the horse and bring my lower leg forwards so I am using it in the correct spot.

Tres confusing!
 
I had RWYM lessons. My thighs are close and toned but not gripping. Works for me! My riding has improved hugely and jumping position is better too.
 
I've always been taught to lengthen the leg my letting weight fall into the heel, so heels down but not forced, as thats what causes lower leg to shoot forwards and you get a 'hunting seat'!
Knee/thigh wise I think there has to be a balance, espescially when learning to sit to a trot correctly I noticed how much I grip with my knee, after this my trainer instilled lots of exercises without stirrups, holding legs away from the saddle etc. this also helped my 'duck feet' syndrome when I jumped!

And finally, I think I see engaging my core as a way of absorbing the movement and enabling your hips to 'swing' correctly with the horse.
I think alot of different riders/instructors try to obtain similar things in your position but have different ways of going about it. I, for example always hunch my shoulders over in canter, everyone has always said 'shoulders back' but one instructor worked on getting my seat and hips moving forward which in turn pushed m shoulders back!

sorry not sure if that answered your question!
 
Hi Having trained with Mary wanless and followed other classical dressage trainers with interest, as well as competed in conventional dressage. Oh I also got taught many years ago by a follower of monty mortimer method. I just wanted to add my thoughts on this thread. I was taught by monty mortimer to take the knees away from the saddle rap the lower leg around the horse like a wet rag round a bottle. This does not work! I believe that the thigh should lay flat and close to the saddle with the weight going into the knee and then to the ankle the joints should act as shock absorbers. the knee should go into the saddle, but must not grip up and this is the hard bit. If you grip up the seat will be pushed out of the saddle. Your seat and core muscles control the paces and the hind leg. If you cannot control them and influance them, you cannot influance to the horses way of going. If they are two stiff and restricting the horse will shuffle, because its like trying to move with the hand break on.Hope this makes some sort of sense and sorry for the spelling.:o
 
frustrated said:
Hi Having trained with Mary wanless and followed other classical dressage trainers with interest, as well as competed in conventional dressage. Oh I also got taught many years ago by a follower of monty mortimer method. I just wanted to add my thoughts on this thread. I was taught by monty mortimer to take the knees away from the saddle rap the lower leg around the horse like a wet rag round a bottle. This does not work! I believe that the thigh should lay flat and close to the saddle with the weight going into the knee and then to the ankle the joints should act as shock absorbers. the knee should go into the saddle, but must not grip up and this is the hard bit. If you grip up the seat will be pushed out of the saddle. Your seat and core muscles control the paces and the hind leg. If you cannot control them and influance them, you cannot influance to the horses way of going. If they are two stiff and restricting the horse will shuffle, because its like trying to move with the hand break on.Hope this makes some sort of sense and sorry for the spelling.:o
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I was taught to ride years ago before many of you were born:p I suppose it would be classed as classical. I had to try and change to the newer way of riding I tend now to sort of mix the two but agree with this answer above. Well put:)
 
eishi said:
I've always been taught to lengthen the leg my letting weight fall into the heel, so heels down but not forced, as thats what causes lower leg to shoot forwards and you get a 'hunting seat'!


QUOTE]

This entirely. I am having a struggle at the moment in that I have a TB mare who I've always had a ridden 'conventially', But the new Lippizanner has been train classically. I am trying desperatly to ride as he is use to but don't always find it easy. I tend to grip with my thighs anyway so spend hours working on loosening them, but not so that someone could fit a hand between them and a saddle. More so that they are resting and not obstructing but can be used if needed....Not sure how much sense that makes at all.

I think sometimes its a case of reading down the middle, can you take things from both sets of trainers and use them both to your advantage? I am trying this at the moment and it does seem to be improving the TB somewhat.

I suppose its a case of what works for you and your horse - I don't think there are any set right and wrongs here.
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I have been training with a RWYM 'influenced' coach who has taken me from a nervous wreck to a reasonable rider. Here are my thoughts


1) I find that the RWYM method is logical and at every step the impact on you/the horse can be explained biomechanically - assuming your teacher is good. Most conventional coaches are teaching to pay the bills, rather than because they are good teaches and actually hate being asked to explain why you do something. (you do it because I am telling you to????)

2) If I see a top rider I never see much daylight between their legs and their saddle. They may teach it ..... but not sure how many actually do it.

3) Unless you are a fairly natural rider, I genuinely believe it is a safer way to ride.


So suggest you watch your instructor riding and see what she actually does with her legs before following blindly!!
 
well i have lessons with a rwym coach, I use my core - tummy and back muscles, my thighs are on but not in a gripping way - more in a toned way with the front tendons 'up', knee is off (well its there but not gripping and legs are at 45 degrees with lower leg 'plugged in' at calf area, and light into the foot. i have a habit of putting too much weight into my left foot and as a result it pushes my left seatbone up.
 
I haven't ridden since May, but I'm trying to think.

Weight to 'fall' into heel, and keep lower leg close to horse with a soft knee & open hip - thighs & knees lay along the saddle - no gap, but no forced gripping.

By opening the hip, you allow the leg to 'wrap'
 
Umm, a bit of both... long answer ahead, sorry!
i've been on a RWYM clinic (as a guinea pig) and was taught by Mary herself for about an hour or so. She changed my position a bit (wanted knees pointing downwards more) but not very much.
I have a German trainer who is a mixture of modern and very classical. He trained with Neindorff, and trains many competition riders, but in a classical way. he hates big blocky saddles, says all that is totally unnecessary. your saddle can make a huge difference to how your leg lies, for example.
He says: feet should be lightly 'tittuping' in stirrups, not forced against them. Pull toes up (rather than forcing heels down) so that the calf muscles are taut, like the bow of a violin, so an accurate leg aid can be given, (not a baggy slap with whole loose calf.)
he always wants me to "be light" with hands and with leg aids, to engage and then leave the horse to keep going, not to be driving constantly with hard legs, if that makes sense...?

I discovered that I had to go through a phase of having my knees right off the saddle to get out of the habit of gripping with them (which I was taught to do, argh, even to the point of having pound notes put under knees and being told i could keep them if i managed a round of sjs without losing them!) then, when this loose-knee position is a habit, when the weight is naturally down in the heels, and stays there, gently close the knees back to the saddle but without gripping.
when teaching i find that the loose knees phase often takes a few months to become a habit, but once it is ingrained, the position is much more elegant as well as MUCH more secure.
yes, i use my core muscles. I don't grip with my thighs, that'd be exhausting. I know of a rider who swears that he tightens his thighs to rebalance and slow a horse, both on the flat and over fences, but I don't! I use my lower legs more, and keep my thighs fairly loose I think.

re: speed of warm-up, this rattling around to get the horse forward thing seems very popular, BUT my trainer likes the horse to "have time to take the bigger step" (which it can't do if it is rushing imho). I've seen Carl Hester warm up quite a few horses, always slowly but with great rhythm and relaxation, and they can look fairly mediocre until, once they're warmed up and loose, he asks for power and then WOW, look at the movement.

this may help: i read this recently:

French Classical School - Balance before movement.
German Classical School - Movement before balance.

not sure if that's 100% right at all, but it's interesting, I hope!
 
I dont conventional dressage once you get to a certain level teaches you to ride with your knee off either, if you watch all the top riders they all have the legnth of their thigh and knees on the saddle, not to the point of gripping but resting gently on the side of the saddle,

i sit with my knees on the saddle and every trainer i have been to have never commented on it or told me off for doing so, my main trainer is calssically trained though and tels me to use the entire length of my leg not just my thigh and heel
 
Only just getting into dressage (been SJing only), but in my first lesson last week (not a BHS instructor, someone who competes to high level themselves), I was told I keep my leg on too much so the horse is then not responsive enough to the aids. I wasn't told to take it off as in seeing air, but simply to apply no pressure most of the time, and make sure I got a reaction from the tiniest squeeze when I did need it. Worked very well, and that combined with a few other changes is currently beginning to create much bigger, freer movement in my girls. I don't generally grip but do have knees in knee rolls (from jumping), and leg touches horse/saddle down to calf muscle or thereabouts - if it wasn't there 'just in case' then I'd be off when some of my lot spooked badly! With the tempo as well, I'd been hurrying the walk too much, she said to find the horse's natural speed and then work on that.
 
I think you have misunderstood slightly. I used to grip with me knees, and my horse was backwards and not free at all. I was having a lesson with a BHSI and they told me to relax me knee and open the hips so the lower was more wrapped around the horse. My horse instantly started to move freerer. I have found when slowing a horse by closing the upper leg you can 'slow' the horse. A pointer i used to ride didn't let it touch your mouth put you could literally slow it down and hold it together with your leg.
 
halt_at_x said:
I will be watching the replies to this with interest.
In my experience classical and RWYM are not the same. Leg-wise they are poles apart. You are right - I accept they are not one and the same.. and I haven't had true 'classical' training - but my understanding was that Mary's RWYM approach was taken from her coaching by classical trainers, and she had analysed their biomechanics - and indeed the biomechanics of other highly effective riders...

I had a RWYM instructor for a couple of years who wanted my thighs and knees close to the saddle (not gripping, but toned). I now have a classical instructor (trained with a previous chief rider at SRS) who tells me to relax knee and thigh, take my upper legs away from the horse and bring my lower leg forwards so I am using it in the correct spot.

Tres confusing!
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Tres confusing is right on the mark!!
Can I ask how the lower leg forward affects your ear/shoulder/hip/heel line?

I don't have gripping thighs currently IMO and like you, gripping is not something that I have been told to do by a RWYM coach - "Isometric muscle tone" - and the outside of the thigh also having tone from turning the heel out - this is also part of what 'pops' your front tendons? But today's instructor really wanted them loose - and I found I lost all power in my riding trot - I felt like I was being left behind, and he was just running off with me. Oh and that I was bumping down on the poor guy's back, something that RWYM approach had previously fixed in my riding!!

Thankyou everyone for all your replies so far, it's really interesting to read!!
 
Try pushing your knee down towards your toes rather than pushing your heels down. This should stop your feet shooting forwards.
Your thighs should lay on the side of the saddle by letting your legs hang. If you grip with your thighs then you cant open your hips to absorb the movement. From my experience most people cant open their hips and this is why they cant sit properly or they tip forwards.
Like everything, you have to find a riding style which is comfortable for you which enables you to get the best out of your horse.
 
frustrated said:
Hi Having trained with Mary wanless and followed other classical dressage trainers with interest, as well as competed in conventional dressage. Oh I also got taught many years ago by a follower of monty mortimer method. I just wanted to add my thoughts on this thread. I was taught by monty mortimer to take the knees away from the saddle rap the lower leg around the horse like a wet rag round a bottle. This does not work! I believe that the thigh should lay flat and close to the saddle with the weight going into the knee and then to the ankle the joints should act as shock absorbers. the knee should go into the saddle, but must not grip up and this is the hard bit. If you grip up the seat will be pushed out of the saddle. Your seat and core muscles control the paces and the hind leg. If you cannot control them and influance them, you cannot influance to the horses way of going. If they are two stiff and restricting the horse will shuffle, because its like trying to move with the hand break on.Hope this makes some sort of sense and sorry for the spelling.:o
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Yes, I agree entirely!! Well put... Reassures me I'm not going mad - I know what you mean about the hand-brake - but with a horse like Leo, being able to put the handbrake on him is very important. It's only once he accepts me as the 'metronome' that I can choose to up a gear with trot - if I let him start off in "big trot" you may as well send out the search party in the next county...:eek::eek: Gerd Hauschmann (Sp?) when I saw a lecture he gave at the TTT, talked about horses being restricted and even 'bridle lame' by "clothes peg" riders - ones who have so much power in their thigh and so much 'clamp' (and are probably 6'4" of pure Arian muscle...) that the horses are unable to swing through their ribcage which is how they move their abdominals to bring their hind legs under them (I think I'm explaining that as I remember it - please correct me if I'm wrong!!) However, I'm not sure 5'2" of me (and my abnormally short thighs...) on a 16.2 Rhinelander has quite the same effect even if I were to grip like my life defended on it.... which I don't... Oh God this is hard... and I have to ride 2 tests on friday. Gut feeling is thigh on, heel out, hands up and hope for the best!!!
 
canteron said:
I have been training with a RWYM 'influenced' coach who has taken me from a nervous wreck to a reasonable rider. Here are my thoughts


1) I find that the RWYM method is logical and at every step the impact on you/the horse can be explained biomechanically - assuming your teacher is good. Most conventional coaches are teaching to pay the bills, rather than because they are good teaches and actually hate being asked to explain why you do something. (you do it because I am telling you to????)

2) If I see a top rider I never see much daylight between their legs and their saddle. They may teach it ..... but not sure how many actually do it.

3) Unless you are a fairly natural rider, I genuinely believe it is a safer way to ride.


So suggest you watch your instructor riding and see what she actually does with her legs before following blindly!!
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You make excellent points here... I also think this thigh off business is a bit of a fashion thing atm - all the AIs seem to be preaching it. When I was taught by our DC at pony club (she is the mother of a VERY big name in eventing....) she used to have a very similar approach to RWYM - thigh on, heel out, hands carried, leg on then off (none of this squueeeze indefinitely...)
I have never felt so secure or in control of my horse(s) than when I started riding with a RWYM coach - empowered and strong, and as though I was 'walzing' my horse... as opposed to them tanking along on the forehand with nose in the air while I added more and more gadgets to try and regain control (I'm not proud of this!) My RWYM coach stripped them all off, and taught me how to use my seatbones to match the horse or slow them down, and the true meaning of a contact. Perhaps a good "conventional' instructor could have helped me to achieve this, but the ones I went to just suggested more gadgets/bits/nosebands, a stronger contact (on the bottom ring of a dutch gag?!!) and more weight in my heel... and longer stirrups so the weight could drop down... If you know RWYM, you might understand the term waterskiing!!!! I'm quite surprised I didn't die.
 
crockshard, i think you're answering your own dilemma here. i think you have to go on how you FEEL, and how your horse FEELS, and it sounds as if your RWYM coach has improved that enormously for you. not all systems are complementary imho...
 
I have had RWYM lessons with one instructor and schoolmaster lessons with the guy that used to run Mary's yard and they fit in with exactly what my 'conventional' trainer was saying. For me its about strong/balanced seat, open hips and relaxed legs.
 
crockshard said:
Tres confusing is right on the mark!!
Can I ask how the lower leg forward affects your ear/shoulder/hip/heel line?
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For me it brings ear, shoulder, hip and the back of my heel into good alignment. My RWYM instructor used to want ankle bone rather than heel aligned with ear, shoulder and hip. I have a natural tendency to tip forwards and as a result my legs creep back, in addition I ride a very compact pony which aesthetically allows no room for error on leg position as a slight change makes a huge difference. In order to get my leg in the correct place I currently have to think legs forward, but that is to allow for my bad habits.

Additionally, the taking the upper part of the leg away from the saddle is counteracting two of my bad habits, I'd be prepared to bet there is no daylight there when I am riding. The stiffness in my hips (being no spring chicken doesn't help), and my natural inclination to grip in a misguided attempt to hang on for dear life (may have something to do with the pony's behaviour in his younger days!).

In my opinion a good instructor will adapt their teaching to suit the rider and horse in front of them rather than sticking to a set mantra.
 
I used to ride with my knees in, not so much gripping but against the saddle knees up.

I then changed instructors and his main issue with me was that i gripped with my knees and thighs. He would constantly badger me to let go and stop gripping and free up my hips. I found for the first few months it was really hard as due to having back problems i couldnt do it. Then it clicked and i now ride with a relaxed knee thigh and am much looser through my hip and can move with my horse. It has completely changed how i ride my horse and how he goes for me.

I do think it is a preference thing though, whether one way works for you and your horse or the other way. I found that the bove way works for me, and also allows me to put more weight down into the ball of my foot.
 
Lower stomach/core pushed towards the pommel, light seat, my legs are relaxed at the thigh and knee, definately no gripping. Legs are wrapped around the horse, open hips, everything is light, when I want to halt I slightly lighten my seat and press (this is minute) lightly into stirrups to take weight off my horses back so she can come up through her back to halt.

I went to a MW clinic years ago and couldn't get on with her 'tight' way of riding through thighs and knees.
 
I haven't read all the ohter replies but I have exactly the same problem as my RWYM teacher and SJ trainer are poles apart when it comes to thighs! My SJ trainer is always shouting "relax your thighs, take your knees off" whereas my RWYM trainer says I don't have my thighs close enough. It is very difficult to know who to listen to but all I can go by is the affect i feel that I have on my horse with the different positions and I am 100% sure that having my thighs close to the saddle and not relaxed and flapping makes my horse come up through her back and also enables me to steer. If I relax my thighs then i lose all control of her shoulders.

Your have probably been told this by your RWYM trainer but there is no way of you carrying your own weight unless your thighs are against the saddle and therefore all your weight just drops through the horses back. With your thighs on and the muscles engaged you can have a much lighter seat.

I have to say that I have ridden for 30 years and I have always been an average amateur no matter who i had lessons with. Since having lessons with a RWYM coach I really feel that I have started to actually have a really good impact on my horses and my riding is much better than it ever was in the past.
 
I'm going to keep an eye on this thread too. My instructor often says 'relax your knees' but ever since I was a kid I was told 'keep your knees on the saddle, I don't want to be able to see light through them'. Tres confusing!!
 
If you grip with your knees/thighs you put a handbrake on the horses body, and will stop it moving freely through their body.

But this is totally different to the secure 'closing' of the thigh against the saddle to half halt the horse and get them to sit more.
 
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I don't know much about Mary Wanless' techniques having never seen her teach or ride. But from a traditional point of view, neither the German nor French/Iberian classical schools advocate gripping or holding with the leg, especially not the upper thigh, unless it is being used as a aid (a brief squeeze with the upper thigh and sitting away from the horse with the seat basically is, esentially, a half halt).

The biggest problem that most amateur riders have with their equitation is gripping with the leg which raises the heel, thus pushing the rider off the seatbones and disrupting the circle of connection with the horse. A very good rider has the coordination to apply the legs independently of the body (and the hands), but most riders struggle with this. The way I see it, if you are pressing with the thigh, you need to use a lot of strength in your back and core to keep your seatbones connected, but riding with so much strength in the seat can be disruptive to the horse, especially at the lower levels where suppleness is established.
 
Have just looked through todays H&H and all those thighs seem to be close to the saddle!!

I would suggest that there isn't that much difference between the 2 schools in their purest form, but some instructors have intrepreted 'don't grip with knees' as having 'over relaxed' thighs and knees, repeating a mantra like a parrot without much understanding of the biomechanics??

If anyone can stop a photo in todays H&H illustrating anything else please let me know as would genuinely be interested to see a top rider with a 'loose' thigh and knee.
 
I doubt that any of those riders are gripping with their thighs. You can't see that a thigh is loose from a picture. Loose does not mean air is visible between the breeches and the saddle!
 
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