Remedial Farriery - should horse feel worse before it feels better?!!

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Christmas Crumpet

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Just asking this question, I know in my heart that the horse should never feel worse after having something changed like shoes.

My little horse has been shod with a inclined frog support shoe due to her counter rotated pedal bones and collapsed heels in both front feet.

The inclined frog support shoe looks like this...

http://www.jimblurton.co.uk/graduated-frog-support-bar-shoes/

Basically to my uneducated eyes, a short heartbar shoe with wedges.

She was shod on Friday, I rode her out for 10 mins on Sat. She felt ok ish and quite lively but she had been shut in her stable for 24 hours and not ridden for 3 days. Sun felt a bit worse and def not her usual self.

Today she felt absolutely dreadful - so hollow and tight in her back, taking tiny steps esp. down hill. She felt so awful I cried like a small child and led her home.

I can only think it would be the shoes because she's had collapsed heels for yonks and its only in the last 2 days she's felt like she has.

She is booked back into vets on Fri. What is worrying me is that the shoes are doing more harm than good if she could feel so awful to ride three days after having the shoes put on.

Any thoughts? I know I asked about collapsed heels and wedges the other day to which most people said go barefoot. I went with what vet suggested because that's what you do when you pay someone for their opinion. I am not knowledgeable enough re: feet to be able to tell a farrier and a vet how to do their job. I will be getting those shoes taken off if they are the reason though!!

Have also put in Vets.
 
It's an absolute can on worms isn't it... All I know is that when a vet told me to get heart bars with frog supports in my horse it went against all my instincts and I resisted... It's been a long journey but he's gone from being crippled to being able to walk on concrete unshod for the first time in ten years. I have to be very strict on diet but the changes in his feet are pretty unbelieable really.
 
In a word...no. Hugs to you first because I know just how you feel.

Upward rotation of the pedal bone has more to do with farriery in the first place e.g. leaving toes too long, heels too low and perhaps a bout of low grade lami will have exacerbated the problem. The only way to sort it IMO is out of shoes for a while. Not many farriers like to do this, nor vets but I promise you it's the most humane way. Farriers don't suggest it because their clients what a horse to ride and its their job to make it rideable often regardless of the horse.

If you could post a photo of the feet, there are lots of members who may be able to provide some perspective.
 
Have no experience of the actual condition. In general terms I don't think they should feel worse before they fell better. My mare had fairly radical remedial farriery after a one-off bout of laminitis, including heart bar shoes. It was a pleasure to see how much better she walked, immediately.

BUT I think you were expecting a lot (too much?) to be trying to ride your horse straight away. I'd be giving at least 4-5 days off completely, and then maybe a week walking in hand. I'll be interested to hear what others think.....
 
I was told to leave her in on Friday which I did, walk her out on Sat under saddle which I did for 15 mins and then to crack on as normal.

She went out for 45 mins yesterday and half an hour this morning. Tried a little trot which was awful so stopped.

I did notice a hole in the back bank of her straw this morning which I have never seen before with her and she also has started standing on a slight bank in the field with her hind feet higher than her fronts. Did wonder if it was all related. Will post pics when I get a minute.
 
It was suggested to me at one stage to put wedges on one of mine by a vet. I resisted and said no. To my uneducated eye they always seem wrong even though I don't know the science behind it. It's explained but doesn't jive in my slow brain. I hate heels on me and how I walk so that computes in my brain. However stupid. I went with pour in pads and aluminium wider shoes. She was pretty good in these. However, I've scraped all shoes and things are going pretty well bare.

But we only go by our experiences and from my perspective I'm not a vet nor farrier. It's a tough road really. I pay professionals too and sometimes I'm not always happy with what I hear and talk about other alternatives. I'm the same in my own care.

Best of luck,
Terri
 
carolineb said:
I was told to leave her in on Friday which I did, walk her out on Sat under saddle which I did for 15 mins and then to crack on as normal.

She went out for 45 mins yesterday and half an hour this morning. Tried a little trot which was awful so stopped.

I did notice a hole in the back bank of her straw this morning which I have never seen before with her and she also has started standing on a slight bank in the field with her hind feet higher than her fronts. Did wonder if it was all related. Will post pics when I get a minute.
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This sounds like navicular to me. Very typical of the condition. Out of interest, what do you feed her?
 
There's a thread somewhere in the picture gallery of the terrible time that I had with my mare.

What I learnt is that some Farriers wont admit when they are wrong, or when shoes are actually damaging the horse's hooves. Also Vets are not keen on having shoes taken off even when they are presented with very sick hooves. I also learnt that often, taking the shoes off is exactly what the horse needs.
 
Well, remedial farriery is an oxymoron in any event.
Personally, I'd miss all the time wasting and unnecessary discomfort the horse would suffer and go straight to barefoot, rather than do the usual, last chance saloon.
 
fwiw if it helps you at all mine also had the same issues and was shod with bar shoes for a couple of cycles (and cosmetically the feet looked better even if the soundness wasn't).

Wedges were a no no from my vet (and me!) and he said he would only ever use them in the very short term.

My lad has been bare since march, is as sound as he was prior to his lameness (is 19 so gets a bit stiff) and generally getting better all the time. We have taken it slowly though just in case ;) although he is now cantering, doing 'proper' hacking and starting to school again.

My feeling with the shoeing is that it made the feet look better on the outside but didn't change the internal structures much. His feet were also bull-nosed (convex profile) all round.. likely due to the pedal bone being wrong.. but his new growth is straight which makes me think (although have no x-rays to prove) that his pedal bone has now returned to a more normal position.
 
MY LAD HAS THIS
and he showed the same as yours with short choppy strides in shoes and worst down hill ( pain in the heel area)
he got to the point he was on bute and box rest and I was considering pts but I used barefoot as a last chance and honestly as soon as his shoes come off iv had no lame days and he's back in work with front boots. It's been 9 weeks for my lad and he's already walking down the lames comfy. Best thing I ever done and in fact iv taken shoes of all mine now. Also just watch when you have him trimmed as my lad couldn't except his toes being trimed back as it was to much for his weak heel area, so he's not trimmed at the mo and I'm letting him chip of his own feet until hopefully they become stronger.

The one thing I will say is RESEARCH loads, there is a lot to it, diet, enviroment, trim etc etc but if u do go down this route which I honestly think you should watch what the farrier takes off his feet. I had this problem and he took of frog and soles and put us back everytime but I knew no better at that point. Oh and my lad is a tb and if he can do it with his feet anybody can

good luck and big hug there's a load of us on here for support who are going through the same

ps we love pics ;)
 
I'm trying to upload them to photobucket at the moment.

Just had text conversation with farrier who said horse may take a day or two to get used to shoes and comfortable. We'll see how she is tomorrow.
 
On all the barefoot posts there is reference to diet, what do you all recommend feeding to improve hoof ?.
I have 5 yr old whos feet were neglected before I bought him ,they had broken so short he couldnt cope barefoot(never seen Farrier) hes had gel pads today and has improved immediately.This is short term solution hopefully when inflammation improves and he has some growth he will be more comfortable.Im also dealing with suspensory ligament tear probably caused by bad balance.
 
You will prob find if he does become comfy he will go back down hill every time he's re shod. Don't be surprised if this happens and this is the bit where I decided I couldn't have him like that every 6 weeks it wasn't fair on him.
 
thatsmygirl said:
You will prob find if he does become comfy he will go back down hill every time he's re shod. Don't be surprised if this happens and this is the bit where I decided I couldn't have him like that every 6 weeks it wasn't fair on him.
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I totally agree,this is what I found with my boy, it was not fair to put him through it every time, so I had to stop shoeing him!
 
The last thing I will say is honestly " follow your heart" do what u feel is best and if that means going against your vet and farriers advise than so be it, you won't be the first or the last to do it and you know your horse better than all of them.
 
thatsmygirl said:
You will prob find if he does become comfy he will go back down hill every time he's re shod. Don't be surprised if this happens and this is the bit where I decided I couldn't have him like that every 6 weeks it wasn't fair on him.
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pines of rome said:
I totally agree,this is what I found with my boy, it was not fair to put him through it every time, so I had to stop shoeing him!
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I don't think I'm being particularly fluffy in saying that it's flipping unacceptable that vets and farriers are doing this to horses and owners. It is downright cruel to be knowingly causing horses more pain than they're in already, even if the bloody wedges did actually fix the horses in the long term, which they don't. :mad:

From your posts on this thread, OP, your horse does sound uncomfortable, even at rest. That's not on and if your vet insists what they are doing is the only option and you decide to believe them, they should at least be filling your horse with pain relief while it "gets used to it" IMO (and fwiw, I doubt it will get used to it anyway).
 
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Flame is so right. I don't know how vets and farriers sleep at night! They are supposed to be experts charging £60 an hour++ and they continue to dismiss taking shoes off a horse as part of natural sensible treatment!!!! I weep!!!!!!

p.s. there many good things they do too but it's what they continue to do to feet that make me so cross.
 
carolineb said:
I did notice a hole in the back bank of her straw this morning which I have never seen before with her and she also has started standing on a slight bank in the field with her hind feet higher than her fronts.
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Which suggests she isn't even comfortable standing still.

Which means she can't engage her stay apparatus properly and so cannot get decent rest either (unless she lies down) :(.
 
tallyho! said:
Flame is so right. I don't know how vets and farriers sleep at night! They are supposed to be experts charging £60 an hour++ and they continue to dismiss taking shoes off a horse as part of natural sensible treatment!!!! I weep!!!!!!

p.s. there many good things they do too but it's what they continue to do to feet that make me so cross.
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I get frustrated too, but vets do the best they can with the information and research they have and the treatments they trust.

They can't go around taking advice from a bunch of untrained hippies off the internet (which is essentially what we are :D).

And the insurance companies dictate that we do something NOW. They won't accept the concept of "we'll try barefoot and see what happens over the next few months", unless you go for Rockley - and even that was a hard fight for a while :rolleyes:.

So the vets are really between a rock and a hard place :(.
 
Oberon said:
I get frustrated too, but vets do the best they can with the information and research they have and the treatments they trust.

They can't go around taking advice from a bunch of untrained hippies off the internet (which is essentially what we are :D).

And the insurance companies dictate that we do something NOW. They won't accept the concept of "we'll try barefoot and see what happens over the next few months", unless you go for Rockley - and even that was a hard fight for a while :rolleyes:.

So the vets are really between a rock and a hard place :(.
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Have to agree, my farrier is happy to barefoot trim if its beneficial to horse and client but both farrier and vet agree inflammation is due to horse being barefoot and never trimmed.Without remedial help inflammation will continue until horse hoof is compromised .He has also been to barefoot seminars
to make sure he offers best solution to all concerned
 
Well my 17hh laminitic idxtb is doing really well on fast fibre, linseed and magnesium. It's also helped his shivers, his joints and his weight. He is strictly limited grass wise though and is bf and doing ok really :) I'm kicking myself I didn't take pics but when he was literally at the point where I thought I was going to have to call it a day it's not the first thing on your mind....
 
Thanks oberon for fact sheet ,fortunatley I wont have to change feed as we already use all suggested feed even down to salt licks.Just need to purchase balancer now :D
 
I said no to remedial farriery and box rest for my aged pony. Sacked farrier and bought my own rasp. I never ever imagined she would manage barefoot, but she does, and hacks, jumps and does dressage. She goes out in field every day with a muzzle on. She will never have shoes on again.
 
I am no expert but would always feel that the remedial work should be done sensitvely in order to avoid huge changes and therefore, possible lameness. My lad had some work done when he got laminitis with some rotation. His feet had been let to get too long really and the toes needed a fair bit of shortening and he had heart bars on.
The visual change in his feet when done was quite amazing...his feet were tiny in comparison to how they had been but he walked away easier than he had come in and improved no end each day after. I guess it depends what has been done, but I would like to think that it would be improvements all the way.
 
Oberon said:
They can't go around taking advice from a bunch of untrained hippies off the internet (which is essentially what we are :D).
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Oi, who you calling hippie? :p

OP I feel for you :(. How is your horse today?

I was very lucky, in that when diagnosed with this condition my vet was easily persuaded to support him staying barefoot, and even offered me a referral to Rockley if I wanted one. With a vet set on shoes that appear to be making your horse worse you must feel like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I would be upset that the farrier hasn't even seen the x-rays, though. That's just downright poor service; you and your horse deserve (and are paying for) better than that!
 
Rode her in school and she felt noticeably lame in trot, still very hollow, not striding out.

The best test was asking for canter on both legs - normally she grabs hold of the bit and charges round. Couldn't even get her to strike off and then when she did, she did a couple of strides and fell back into trot. Pretty solid proof to me she is feeling awful.

Then took her up the road and back down a slope where she minced down the hill taking weeny steps and felt awful.

Pretty bloody awful to be honest!!
 
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