Rent a broodmare!

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SharX

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Hello to all UK breeders and Enthusiats!
There's a new concept out there, created by French Breeders: you can rent a grade A broodmare for a year ( which means pay her boarding and care ). She stays at the breeding farm in France so costs are kept low ( boarding is MUCH cheaper on the continent ) and you can pick the stallion of your choice to inseminate her. Her owner/breeder takes care of everything ( insemination and all ). A year later, your baby's born! Would this new concept, that has just started being in use on the continent be of interest for you?
 
Totally agree. I think it would make more sense for the buyer of the foal, and the owner of the broodmare to use embryo transfer. One step forward, two steps back.
 
Not really a new concept I know places that are doing the same and similar in this country, thats how I got started.

I'd rather buy a mare and breed myself or go and buy a foal once it was on the ground or if that particular mare was the mare I REALLY wanted to use go down the ET route.
 
what's the step back?

How can you use embryo transfer if you don't have the mare?

This is for people who have a stallion, or fancy using one, but don't have a grde A broodmare to give him!
You gain access to international grade A mare that you couldn't buy otherwise as they're not for sale. Whether you use them directly or do embryo transfer, it;s your choice.

These mares are proven on offspring, they have produced auction sales toppers and international horses related to the horses of Jessica Kuerten, Eric Navet....
But none of them is for sale. You just get the opportunity to breed with one of them. How you do it ( embryo t or natural carriage ) is up to you.
 
It isn't my business, I am just enquiring in behalf of a group of french breeders. They are offering a few mares ( about 15 ) . Costs of rental and maintenance, uptill weaning time for the foal, are about 8000 EUROS if I am not mistaken. But all mares being grade A, the value of the foal is proportional, obviously.
It is also important to mention than an embryo transfer, practised by one of the top vet clinics of that country, only costs about 5000 euros. It's a big difference compared to UK prices.
 
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How can you use embryo transfer if you don't have the mare?

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Well if this 'mare' was the only mare you wanted to use then you would negogiate the Embryo Transfer to be done with the mare owner and then you can bring the recipient mare away once/if she holds the pregnancy and look after the recipient yourself.
 
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It is also important to mention than an embryo transfer, practised by one of the top vet clinics of that country, only costs about 5000 euros. It's a big difference compared to UK prices.

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5000 euros........i'll stick with the UK thanks...................Embryo Transfer is cheaper over here!
 
Gulp, dont think so, with the price of foals I would rather save for a live foal seeing as a lot of European stallions cover so many graded mares, at least you can see what you are getting.
 
Rent-a-womb is an old concept, not a new one.

Combined with embryo transfer, it's a really good scheme, allowing top broodmares to have several foals each year, and allows people to buy foals from a good mare in utero - good for breeder and buyer. The two most popular ET centres in the UK do the whole process in the region of 2-3k maximum, and there are some lesser known ones which offer ET for much less.

However, the idea having a mare on the continent carrying a foal for you for that amount of money will not sell well... You'd be better off going to a continental foal auction and buying something that's on the ground.
 
I'm amazed at so much negative feedback!
The concept IS new because, and for the first time, top international broodmares, dams of graded stallions, dams of sales toppers, are used. Not the usual "grade A" than won a bit more 1.20 classes than the average.
But this is generally directed to profesional breeders ( Paul Shockemohle, VDL, Fernand Leredde, a lot of big names practise this ). I guess for a more "common" audience, some people struggle to find the use?

Ok I'll explain: if you guys can keep a broodmare ( taken in at night, on top feed, with excellent vet care as often as she needs it and more ) for less than 4000 pounds a year, then we must live in a different country! I am located in the UK and cannot understand where you guys get the prices you are talking about, but there you go.

As well, foals of these mares do sell for 20 000 euros on the continent. Basic mathematics will show you you're paying half the price, at costs.
Last and not least, Snowynight, the TB industry forbids artificial insemination, which is at the heart of this practice. Renting a womb isn't then possible, you have to rent the broodmare physically which is another subject.

Strangely, if this concept was Sooooo Negative as you seem to find it, I'd like to understand why two top stallions owners, in the international GB team, have chosen to do so....Strange hey?
I guess, although they are profesional, they must be mistaken to... As well as the people who trust European breeders whose dam lines have been selected for hundreds of years, to help them produce a sales topper. If you're in the business end, the choice is clear.
It's not the stallion used that defines a foal's quality but the mare.It's recognised by the science of genetics. In a country where most people are quite in the dark as to bloodlines, it's actually easy for foreigners to sell you third quality stuff, as it always happens. For once, the top of european bloodlines is accessible ( and can be verified ), but you DO have to be able to tell the difference.
Good luck to all.
 
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I'm amazed at so much negative feedback!
The concept IS new because, and for the first time, top international broodmares, dams of graded stallions, dams of sales toppers, are used. Not the usual "grade A" than won a bit more 1.20 classes than the average.

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Don't be amazed by the feedback - this is a discussion forum. We all like to discuss things, and if we don't see the benefit of something then we'll all say so.

This is NOT A NEW CONCEPT - rent-a-womb/rent-a-broodmare has been done for some time; just because it's with some "top mares" doesn't mean it's new. The idea has been done, and is being done, and this offer is just the same thing with new participants - which is great for those who want to do it, but I simply cannot understand why the French breeders would limit themselves to have one foal from each "superstar" mare in each year... why take up the grade A's womb, when you could get 5+ (maybe 7-10 if you're very lucky) embryos in one year.

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But this is generally directed to profesional breeders ( Paul Shockemohle, VDL, Fernand Leredde, a lot of big names practise this ). I guess for a more "common" audience, some people struggle to find the use?

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I'm not sure that insulting members of the forum and breeders in the UK is the best way to get your point across.

Surely, if the mares were that good then these "professional breeders" would simply buy the mare and put her into their own embryo transfer programme?

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Ok I'll explain: if you guys can keep a broodmare ( taken in at night, on top feed, with excellent vet care as often as she needs it and more ) for less than 4000 pounds a year, then we must live in a different country! I am located in the UK and cannot understand where you guys get the prices you are talking about, but there you go.

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Why £4000? 8000 euros is about £5720...

Locally, we have an excellent livery centre which charges £65 p/w for part livery (which includes turn out, being brought in, ad lib hay and feed)... so that's £3380... and vet care... well, if a mare is fully insured (say for £500-700 per year), then all vets fees are paid for barring the excess - so let's call that £1000 for the year (with a really unlucky mare).

So now, we're at £4380... for a mare being kept FOR you at a professional livery yard. Much cheaper if you keep her at home, or at your own stud, if you are a professional.

Yes, I know that yours includes renting the mare's womb, but I'm just saying that your figures don't mean that much! ET from £1500-3000 on top could mean that if you're keeping the mare yourself, then the price could be the same, or even cheaper.

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As well, foals of these mares do sell for 20 000 euros on the continent. Basic mathematics will show you you're paying half the price, at costs.

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Well, then the owner/breeder is going to be losing out big time! They clearly have no business accumen if they are letting this happen...

Over 5 years... 8000 euros, 1 foal per year... 40,000 euros income.

Over 5 years, 20,0000 euros per sale, 4 foals per year using embryo transfer... 400,000 euros income.

Hmmm... for me, that's a no brainer... so either there's something wrong with these mares, or there is something wrong with their owners.

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Last and not least, Snowynight, the TB industry forbids artificial insemination, which is at the heart of this practice. Renting a womb isn't then possible, you have to rent the broodmare physically which is another subject.

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Well... is AI at the heart of it? In the TB world, surely one could rent-a-womb where the stallion covers the mare naturally (as it must be), and then the mare is kept normally by the owner in the same way, until the foal is ready for weaning... it really doesn't make any difference. Bearing is mind the stud fees, arranging transport of the mare would not a big problem.

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Strangely, if this concept was Sooooo Negative as you seem to find it, I'd like to understand why two top stallions owners, in the international GB team, have chosen to do so....Strange hey?

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Well, these are riders... probably with lots of money... not breeders trying to make a living, or trying to improve their stock for the purpose of further breeding. Perhaps you should have posted this on the Competition Riders board, if that's who this service is aimed at?

It's not "strange" that people are using the service... just, for the reasons I've stated above, and others have stated already, it just won't appeal to a wide audience. But if the owners are limiting themselves my letting the actual mare carry the foal, then that won't be a problem, as they can only have 15-20 customers per year (for 15-20 mares).

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I guess, although they are profesional, they must be mistaken to... As well as the people who trust European breeders whose dam lines have been selected for hundreds of years, to help them produce a sales topper. If you're in the business end, the choice is clear.

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No, it's clearly not! Spend the 8000 euros on a young mare from Nijhof or a French stud if you prefer, and then bring her home and put her in an embryo transfer programme... long term, the returns will most likely be a lot higher. No waiting for the foal to get older, for a start.

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It's not the stallion used that defines a foal's quality but the mare.It's recognised by the science of genetics. In a country where most people are quite in the dark as to bloodlines, it's actually easy for foreigners to sell you third quality stuff, as it always happens.

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Well, the mare is very important... technically the mare's genetic contribution is 50%, although I have read some papers that say that up to 80% of the foal's performance ability is linked to the mare's contribution. However, the stallion's contribution is pretty vital... I think it's important to note that when breeding lines are quotes, the stallion's name is quoted along the dam-line, not the mare. So yes, the mare's contribution is very important, but I infer from your post that you think that it doesn't matter AT ALL, what stallion you use. Not true.

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For once, the top of european bloodlines is accessible ( and can be verified ), but you DO have to be able to tell the difference.
Good luck to all.

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I don't quite understand your last bit... and like I mentioned before, if these mares are so fantastic, why aren't they being put into embryo transfer programmes?

Thanks for your good luck wishes.
 
I totally agree with AndyPandy, if you put something on a discussion forum then you have to expect it to be discussed and have to expect that not everyone is going to agree, also business wise this idea does not make sense, for the same reasons as AndyPandy has explained.

Perhaps if your thread wasn't blatant advertising (which appears to be your reason for joining), harping on about a new concept, which infact the principal of is very old, its how I got started leasing broodmares from one of the top studs in this country, insult people who have bothered to reply and discuss your topic (the point of the forum) and assume that the horses we are breeding from aren't as great as these mares, you may have been recieved a little better!

I am sure this idea will be great for someone but a little more business thought and tact maybe what you need to get it off the floor IMO. Good luck with it anyway!
 
Ditto what everybody else has said...........

Also what makes me wonder is that if these are the best breeding mares France has to offer..................why are you posting via a forum.........why not advertise properly in horse mags etc??? Especially when you say that members of Team GB have signed up................

Sorry this does not add up and seems very dubious to me!!
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And with you making friends so readily am sure the interest will come flooding in................
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...........not the best way to do business!
 
Gosh hasn't it got exciting we hardly have any insults on this part of the forum. I stand by my comment, I would rather look at a live foal when talking that kind of money. There is enough of a gamble & there is no guarantee you will get a decent foal after spending all that money. I may not be a professional but common sense says this does not add up. I have known people loan good mares 20yrs ago to breed from. In this day & age if you had a good grade A mare or top dressage mare why would you limit her to just one foal a yr? AP has answered you very well and with very valid points. And as everyone has said, no need to insult just because we are not falling over ourselves to agree with you & jump on the offer. Good luck to you, because with your attitude you are going to need all the luck the members have so far given you!
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I don't really know a lot about breeding, but economically you would make more money either selling the foals yourself or selling the broodmares, as they are so high class. Makes no sense doing it your way as your still holding on to all the risk (the mare might die) with none of the benefits.
 
Oh dear, good luck to you and before you preach to the breeders in this forum again it may be worth checking out the websites and the mares/stallions used, you may be surprised
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As a stallion owner with no mares of my own, I might have been a prime candidate for this sort of scheme....

....but I'm afraid the way you have gone about it has put me off. There was no need to be rude just because we didn't immediately rush to buy the service you were trying to sell to us.

As well as making you look rather desperate and pathetic, your insults have now thoroughly alienated some of the leading sport-horse breeders in the UK.

Not a very smart way to do business.
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Last and not least, Snowynight, the TB industry forbids artificial insemination, which is at the heart of this practice. Renting a womb isn't then possible, you have to rent the broodmare physically which is another subject.

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Really? Well I would never have known that - thank you!!! I do hope you can detect the heavy tone of sarcasm in my typing? You see I am a TB Industry professional so I do know a little bit about that which I type!! As I suggested in my previous post on this thread, look up ClassicStar (spelt and capitalised exactly as I wrote it). I suggested this, as it all went horribly wrong for CS and they are still under investigation from the IRS and co!!! It IS possible in the TB world and has been done and is done world wide. Shuttle stallions AND mares are part of it!!
 
I looked up ClassicStar and clearly there was something seriously iffy going on- but what were they actually doing? When registration & so on in the TB industry is so tightly regulated, how were they managing to scam their customers?

Its a pity this 'mare hire' thread has got off to such a bad start, because it looks as if in some situations, given the right mares, the right business partners and the right prices, it might work for some people- proving a young stallion, for example. I've seen a lot of studs who have pulled out all the stops to acquire their stallion- or have bred a horse that is, of course, quite unproven but potentially stallion material- and they either can't yet attract or can't afford to buy mares to complement him. If he's homebred their best mare is probably his mum! So is there any mileage in buying an egg or two, as it were, from a top mare to get your young horse off to a flying start? You could start with bargain basement broodies to offset the cost.

Given that this isn't a new idea (though you don't often hear of it) has anyone here done this and if so was it worth it?

(edited to say sorry if I'm being totally obtuse about ClassicStar)
 
Actually, to ramble on, I think there really could be some mileage in this; so much so that someone has to have done it already. If you have a really good mare, chances are she's seen as really good because she's proven in competition; which means that you are quite likely to be a competitor rather than a breeder. What better way to capitalize on her breeding potential than by selling eggs, just as a stallion owner would sell semen. Yes, you might get more money in the end if you bred her yourself, but you'd have to buy the land, the surrogates, pay the vets fees, 2 years feed, stud groom etc.. before you saw any return; plus you might choose a stallion other people didn't like. So, sell eggs and let the punters shoulder the breeding risks themselves...almost instant income, while the mare, by her competition victories, advertises herself.....
 
Wow, I have only just reached this thread, and I am absolutely shocked by the narrow mindedness and rudeness of the original poster. This is a DISCUSSION forum, and you asked for views - which you were given.
You may like to take the time to go and look into the breeding programs some of us run....if of course you can stand to look at our low quality stock.
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As far as the cost of keeping a mare goes, we have our own stud/yard so do not pay any boarding. Our costs amount to worming, trimming and feeding, which certainly does not amount to E8000! God, I'd be straight out of business if any of my mares cost me that!
 
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