Resistance in the mouth - Is it always the bit?

vhf

vhf

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Musing while watching my green mare being ridden by another (suitably competent) person. When asked to do something difficult for her level of training (maintaining rhythm, balance, bend, connection, concentration, all at once), she occasionally resists by sticking her tongue right out over the bit and flapping it in the wind. I went through many, many bits when I got her and I thought current set-up was approved of.
I know a bit about bitting, anatomy etc. but the more I read, the more I wonder. Why should she not resist doing something she doesn't quite get yet, without it being a 'bitting issue'? She's a trier and seems to enjoy work, won't throw her toys out the pram unless she's badly overloaded. How else should a horse be saying 'I don't get what you're asking'?
Or should I start bit hunting again?!
 
Posting to follow and see what others think. Friend has a mare who does the same and she gets no end of grief from bystanders about changing bits or strapping her mouth shut, but she feels similar; mare is just saying she is having to think and work a bit harder.
 
I like to consider the energy flow we try to create when working with horses. Leg aids ask for hindquarter engagement, then back/ribs, into the neck/shoulders and finally mouth. Our job is to have a light seat and quiet hands to allow and guide this. So to my mind, resistance in the mouth means the horse may have muscle weakness or finds it difficult to maintain for long. A bit change can encourage the horse to try for a few more minutes but really should also be given pat and a stretch in walk. Stronger bits/extra nose bands just restrict and block the energy and give a stressed horse. Having said all that, I had one that forever got his tongue over the bit but only when you could tell he couldn’t be faffed with poncy circles for the day 🤦
 
My now 7yo would fuss with his bit and pull his head around at clinics at times and I had many a clinician tell me to use a flash / give him a pull to stop it etc. He never did it at home so I decided it was tension of some sort - either the clinic environment or just harder work than his muscles were used to.

So I ignored them and it's got less & less. Mainly jumping lessons now which I think is an excitement / anxiety overload issue (50cm is VERY exciting).

I don't get the "strap it shut" mentality. If it's not a problem in the mouth then it's a problem somewhere in the body and surely you'd want that feedback as a rider?
 
Mm. Thank you @smolmaus and @paisley . Yes, This mare was SO dictatorial about what she liked in her mouth that it's deflating to think I had to start again. She seems to thrive on work, so perhaps we're going to have to be very tuned in to her signals that she needs to pause. I really am anti going down the bit/bridle escalation route unless there's a reason to that doesn't compromise welfare. I am in no rush with her training.
 
SEL said:
My now 7yo would fuss with his bit and pull his head around at clinics at times and I had many a clinician tell me to use a flash / give him a pull to stop it etc. He never did it at home so I decided it was tension of some sort - either the clinic environment or just harder work than his muscles were used to.

So I ignored them and it's got less & less. Mainly jumping lessons now which I think is an excitement / anxiety overload issue (50cm is VERY exciting).

I don't get the "strap it shut" mentality. If it's not a problem in the mouth then it's a problem somewhere in the body and surely you'd want that feedback as a rider?
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Yes!! I think we can sometimes forget that feedback is a good thing, even when it's not what you wanted to hear.
 
I wld advise borrow a Pelham or nice stralght snaffle to try out.it worked for our kind sweet boy who obviously couldnt cope with jointed snaffle and lost all focus and was genuinely stressed. Jamming their jaws together is cruel in my book!!!
 
I find these responses so interesting. It seems to me that the general principle might be - by all means experiment until you've found something that appears to be comfortable for the basic level of work the horse is doing now, without asking more. Not every horse will be comfortable in the same simple snaffle. But then if the work changes but the horse responds with 'contact issues' the problem isn't the bit, but the work. Either how it is being asked, or strength/flexibility/etc, or potentially there is physical discomfort unapparent until now. So the answer at this point is not in changing the bit but working out which of those things is wrong, and working on those.
 
Brief update. Stumbled on a 2/h Avacello Sensitive bit, so thought I'd try that even though it's not dressage legal. Straight, narrow, light, not metal. She definitely prefers it to anything double-jointed or metal. The tongue stays where it belongs. So that's good. Now instead when I don't get it quite right/she doesn't understand the brief/she's got too much to think about she simply opens her mouth. I find that a much more 'normal' young horse reaction, so we'll stick with this for a while and see what happens. I may be back on here asking for suggestions for dressage legal equivalents... in about 2030 at my current rate of progress (which is not related to her!).
 
Bryher said:
I wld advise borrow a Pelham or nice stralght snaffle to try out.it worked for our kind sweet boy who obviously couldnt cope with jointed snaffle and lost all focus and was genuinely stressed. Jamming their jaws together is cruel in my book!!!
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Great minds. She did not like the only metal straight snaffle I found, but it was quite 'heavy'. I borrowed a nathe pelham (minus curb, obvioulsy). She liked it but it was incredibly bendy and I didn't trust it; I felt like I was in a cotton wool bridle with only her manners to keep her with me... As I only ride in open fields/ on roads, it was a short experiment. I will not shut her mouth forcibly, no.
 
vhf said:
Great minds. She did not like the only metal straight snaffle I found, but it was quite 'heavy'. I borrowed a nathe pelham (minus curb, obvioulsy). She liked it but it was incredibly bendy and I didn't trust it; I felt like I was in a cotton wool bridle with only her manners to keep her with me... As I only ride in open fields/ on roads, it was a short experiment. I will not shut her mouth forcibly, no.
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You can buy rubber-covered straight, or forward moon, mouthpieces - you can ask a loriner such as Abbey to fit to whatever bit you prefer. I’ve had them put on various Pelhams and Liverpools, find cobs prefer forward moon to straight, and rubber to cold steel.
Or try sewing chamois leather around the straight snaffle you already have, if steel is the issue.
I think there’s a metal chain for safety through centre of the Nathe bits? As in, shouldn’t suddenly disconnect you! If she rides well in that, it will ensure you have light hands anyway!
 
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Tightness / disfunction anywhere in the body can end up expressed in mouth .
Of course that’s not a reason to be careful of the mouth itself that the bit is appropriate for the horse and that it’s got no dental issues .
Everyone should consider the horses hyoid and the roll of the fascia in tension and discomfort coming out in the mouth .
 
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I used to have a horse that used to open his mouth a lot - he had a very big tongue. I found a bit he liked but it was a bit of a habit by then. I chose not to put a flash on him as we tried it before and he was very tense - because he hadn’t got enough room in his mouth I suspect. So although this used to be picked up in the dressage arena as an evasion I ignored the comments as wanted to do what was best for him.
 
My EDT has always said that the mouth can be an expression point for pain/ discomfort elsewhere in the body. I do believe this is probably true for horses who have consistent issues with the contact (if they are being ridden by a competent rider with good hands!).
 
Jumping on this thread as still looking for a perfect bit. I would happily ride my pony completely bitless now but have found that I am not confident when she spooks out and about or at lessons away from home. This is more so since I broke my wrist in a fall this summer I just feel safer with a bit. However, mine is never 100% happy in one unless there’s absolutely no contact. I am doing in hand work for strength and I am not one to hang in the reins. She can go in nice shapes bitless. Tried myler, Novocontact, Beris Mullen, single joint snaffle, double jointed snaffle… ideas? She’s 7 and still working on strengthening etc..
 
UKa said:
Jumping on this thread as still looking for a perfect bit. I would happily ride my pony completely bitless now but have found that I am not confident when she spooks out and about or at lessons away from home. This is more so since I broke my wrist in a fall this summer I just feel safer with a bit. However, mine is never 100% happy in one unless there’s absolutely no contact. I am doing in hand work for strength and I am not one to hang in the reins. She can go in nice shapes bitless. Tried myler, Novocontact, Beris Mullen, single joint snaffle, double jointed snaffle… ideas? She’s 7 and still working on strengthening etc..
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What bits out of the ones you listed did you have the fewest problems with, and what did the problems look like? If she likes no contact, or a very stable mouthpiece, I suppose a hanging cheek would be my first guess? Or something like the Acavallo Sensitive which is stable in the cheek pieces and has a very light flexible mouthpiece. My friend's fussy mare has just swapped to the Acavallo and is much happier in it.
 
smolmaus said:
What bits out of the ones you listed did you have the fewest problems with, and what did the problems look like? If she likes no contact, or a very stable mouthpiece, I suppose a hanging cheek would be my first guess? Or something like the Acavallo Sensitive which is stable in the cheek pieces and has a very light flexible mouthpiece. My friend's fussy mare has just swapped to the Acavallo and is much happier in it.
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Oh thank you so much. I think the more stable ones are better. Eggbutt vs loose ring. She chewed my Beris soft bit so now can’t use it anymore. I had wondered about the hanging cheek. With what mouthpiece though? Been looking at expert bits blu range maybe
 
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UKa said:
Jumping on this thread as still looking for a perfect bit. I would happily ride my pony completely bitless now but have found that I am not confident when she spooks out and about or at lessons away from home. This is more so since I broke my wrist in a fall this summer I just feel safer with a bit. However, mine is never 100% happy in one unless there’s absolutely no contact. I am doing in hand work for strength and I am not one to hang in the reins. She can go in nice shapes bitless. Tried myler, Novocontact, Beris Mullen, single joint snaffle, double jointed snaffle… ideas? She’s 7 and still working on strengthening etc..
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I had a lot of joy with a Myler mullen mouth hanging cheek for my fussy-in-the-mouth old boy. He seemed to like how still it was. The Micklem bridle also made a big difference. My instructor's theory is that the Micklem's 'anatomical' claims aren't that big a deal but that it holds the bit very still and that's why some horses seem to like them. It certainly seemed to be the case with Archie. Anything that helps make them more comfy is great in my eyes.

Back to VHF's more general question - the second Wiggy starts working through from behind properly he stops sticking his tongue out. I've not tried any gadgets but I don't think anything would help stop it until he's working through. It's a handy test for anyone watching to know whether he's working properly or not!
 
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UKa said:
Oh thank you so much. I think the more stable ones are better. Eggbutt vs loose ring. She chewed my Beris soft bit so now can’t use it anymore. I had wondered about the hanging cheek. With what mouthpiece though?
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Yeah unfortunately always going to be a problem with the soft bits. Sometimes worth it if it's the thing that works best for the horse though.

You've tried a good few mouthpieces; which one did she have the least reaction to? Maybe pick her "favourite" of those and try a hanging cheek version?
 
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smolmaus said:
Yeah unfortunately always going to be a problem with the soft bits. Sometimes worth it if it's the thing that works best for the horse though.

You've tried a good few mouthpieces; which one did she have the least reaction to? Maybe pick her "favourite" of those and try a hanging cheek version?
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I will think about that thanks
 
Hind leg issues , my first mare was always super fussy in the mouth, I could have opened a bit shop, then discovered she had annular ligament issue
 
To build on some of the comments above. Latest body worker visit agreed with my own thinking that this is a horse unusually tight (weak) in the pelvic area... I have no doubt it's all part of the jigsaw. She is never going to be a 'put up and shut up' girl, but I will have to hear the whispers.
 
I could say I have a feeling over the years that the pelvic sacro areas are the most vulnerable parts, ie. Tension caused by rushed training asking too much at once shows in that region, resistance, contortion, that area is the link between the engine and the weight carrying loaded back and the forehand that needs to be lifted

When working on strengthening that area I use a special capturing contact allowing the horse to balance consistantly and have confidence to reach forwards and take the bit while lengthening the neck the horse decides where it needs to be for comfort to allow the loins freedom to come upwards instead of dropping and becoming sore and tense
 
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tristars said:
I could say I have a feeling over the years that the pelvic sacro areas are the most vulnerable parts, ie. Tension caused by rushed training asking too much at once shows in that region, resistance, contortion, that area is the link between the engine and the weight carrying loaded back and the forehand that needs to be lifted

When working on strengthening that area I use a special capturing contact allowing the horse to balance consistantly and have confidence to reach forwards and take the bit while lengthening the neck the horse decides where it needs to be for comfort to allow the loins freedom to come upwards instead of dropping and becoming sore and tense
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Yes, this is a previously very weak and immature horse whose go-to is to be tense and short ready to avoid being eaten but whose brain wants to explore and learn, so in permanent conflict! ... Hill and remedial work are her main activities, but she is still learning to relax and lengthen even loose in the field.
 
UKa said:
Jumping on this thread as still looking for a perfect bit. I would happily ride my pony completely bitless now but have found that I am not confident when she spooks out and about or at lessons away from home. This is more so since I broke my wrist in a fall this summer I just feel safer with a bit. However, mine is never 100% happy in one unless there’s absolutely no contact. I am doing in hand work for strength and I am not one to hang in the reins. She can go in nice shapes bitless. Tried myler, Novocontact, Beris Mullen, single joint snaffle, double jointed snaffle… ideas? She’s 7 and still working on strengthening etc..
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Have a look at the acavello 'sensitive' as it's very fixed and still. I picked mine up 2/3rd hand. They do another one that looks intersting with loose rings, too.
 
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Baggs my 20 year old has spent majority of the time that I've owned him in a 3 ring gag with french link mouthpiece and we switched between the snaffle rein and the rings below, dependant on situation (despite being very sporty and slim built, being half native means he can pull like a bloody tank and is a strong git too! On a fun ride we out ran a 16.2hh ex racehorse and it took me 3 laps of the field to pull him up.....)

I only ever had to use the gag lightly on the lower settings as he is generally soft and nice in the mouth.

Recently, he's been lobbing his head around and generally saying that he is not happy with what's in his mouth. I switched him to a snaffle with french link mouth piece and he's a lot happier in this. Also found out that he can hang his tongue out if he is sore through his back/his arthritis is playing up - so I think that resistance in the mouth is a sign of something else not being quite right in the body x
 
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