Retirement?

[splashgirl45]

so sorry you are having to make such a big decision, from your posts it sounds as though he will not be pain free in retirement and as i have said before, quality of life is most important to me so as it is likely to get worse over time i would PTS now before the bad weather...you know your horse so no ione can tell you what to do....why not give him a couple of weeks just being retired and try and come to a decision depending on how he is enjoying life..if he was 25 would you still retire? i think you need to forget his age and look at QOL....sorry

 

[Dyllymoo]

Thanks all. Had a chat with a vet today and he has been graded 2 in the ataxia grades by 2 top vets at the practice and that he has been noted as having "considerably deteriorated" since his last visit (September). She said he has the high action in front that is worse downhill and struggles to know where his back legs are as well which I didn't really know. So all in all really not good. I'm speaking with the vet tomorrow who saw him Monday to ask any final questions but honestly I'm so sad i can't even express it.

Should I take his shoes off and retire him to a grass livery with friends for a few weeks/months to see how he copes or pts and stress that he could have had some time to just chill and be a horse and I took that away from him.

I feel broken if I'm honest.

 

[Annagain]

I doubt a few weeks will make a significant difference to him so if you need that time, take it on the proviso that it will be sooner if he deteriorates so quickly that he’s no longer comfortable.

 

[doodle]

Personally and I emphasis it is just me but I would find it very hard to look at a horse every day knowing what is going to happen in a few weeks/months. Abbey had similar issues to your boy and the deed was planned the next day. That was to allow her loaner to come and say goodbye that night as she couldn’t get away from work. That one night was hell. Then there was Minto where we hoped against hope that there would be some sort of improvement overnight. That was hard too. As was knowing the vet would be back in a few hours to do it. Like I say that is just me and I think if I made that decision I would want it done pretty soon.

 

[Mosh]

I'm so sorry you're going through this but J won't be thinking about having time with his friends or what if if you PTS now. Horses live in the moment and he won't know.

He's deteriorated in just a couple of months, he doesn't know where his feet are anymore, its going to get progressively worse and one day you'll have to make that decision, he may be stuck in a field, not being able to get up and he could hurt himself or anybody trying to help him. It wouldn't be dignified for him or you.

Sending you a virtual hug, I'm so sorry you're having a rubbish time but we'll be here, supporting you through it xx

 

[ihatework]

Thanks all. Had a chat with a vet today and he has been graded 2 in the ataxia grades by 2 top vets at the practice and that he has been noted as having "considerably deteriorated" since his last visit (September). She said he has the high action in front that is worse downhill and struggles to know where his back legs are as well which I didn't really know. So all in all really not good. I'm speaking with the vet tomorrow who saw him Monday to ask any final questions but honestly I'm so sad i can't even express it.

Should I take his shoes off and retire him to a grass livery with friends for a few weeks/months to see how he copes or pts and stress that he could have had some time to just chill and be a horse and I took that away from him.

I feel broken if I'm honest.

I think retiring for an unspecified amount of short time will be tough on you mentally and actually probably of no real benefit to the horse. I’d be inclined to keep him in his routine, spoil him rotten for a week or so and then say goodbye.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks all. Had a chat with a vet today and he has been graded 2 in the ataxia grades by 2 top vets at the practice and that he has been noted as having "considerably deteriorated" since his last visit (September). She said he has the high action in front that is worse downhill and struggles to know where his back legs are as well which I didn't really know. So all in all really not good. I'm speaking with the vet tomorrow who saw him Monday to ask any final questions but honestly I'm so sad i can't even express it.

Should I take his shoes off and retire him to a grass livery with friends for a few weeks/months to see how he copes or pts and stress that he could have had some time to just chill and be a horse and I took that away from him.

I feel broken if I'm honest.

Why wait DM? Why watch as he gets worse?

With my wobbler i was told that the back legs go first because the nerves for the back legs are on the outside of the bundle in the neck. Which means that if his front legs are impacted, the damage is deep.

It's very hard for you DM, but I can't see any point in delaying. So sorry
.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It is a horrible position for you to be in but if you were to move him to grass livery, would he be able to go straight into a new herd (I wouldn't want that for my horse), would he be able to defend himself if a member of his new herd started to pick on him? Would he be able to cope with moving on unfamiliar ground?.

Would you be prepared to risk him falling and injuring himself, even if all the other horses around were extremely peaceable and wouldn't push /hassle him in his new home?

The decision is, of course, yours but imho, you need to think around all the possibilities before coming to your decision because only you can really decide what is in J's best interests, in conjunction with your vet.

 

[TPO]

I agree with @Kamikaze and have felt the same in similar situations.

I missed your post about him not knowing where his front feet are but as he is now struggling with his backs too I'd pts asap. I would hate for there to be an accident in the field or stable.

I am genuinely sorry. It's not fair but please take some comfort knowing that you have done everything right by him and explored every option.

 

[w1bbler]

Spend the weekend giving him lots of attention & all the forbidden treats you can get your hands on.
My advise would be to not watch a horse slowly deteriorate, but make the decision whilst they are still relatively ok.
Vets seldom tell you that pts is the best option, but you can usually gauge their thoughts if you bring the subject up first. If they really feel he has deteriorated significantly in 2 months then I guess he is likely to continue going downhill rapidly.
Look after yourself

 

[ester]

The speed of deterioration as described by your vet, the time of year, the fact that I wouldn't really want to move him to a different yard if it was only going to be for a short period but the current yard not being ideal for a retiree would make the decision for me I'm afraid.

 

[spotty_pony]

Unfortunately, this is what I have woken up thinking and I feel awful for thinking it. He has pulled another front shoe off and I cant help but think its all related (in the 14 months I have owned him he has only pulled 2 shoes off, and both have been within the last week).

I will speak with the vet again today but honestly I don't think its going to be the outcome of him living 20 years as a field potato and that is very sad.

Completely get where you are coming from as I am currently going through similar with my 17 year old boy. He has Navicular and tears to both DDFT in the hoof. Prognosis to return to work is very poor and he is currently lame in trot. I spoke to the Vet today and she has said she will respect whatever decision I make but would support a pts decision, particularly as he is uncomfortable after only 5 minths since Navicular Bursae were medicated.I've been in pieces all day. ? I will do what is best by him but am going to ask for the Vet to come out and look at him and discuss in detail. I will have the land to be Able to keep him out and retired but I am bot entirely sure he is a horse that will cope being in a field for years and also whether he will be pain free.

 

[spotty_pony]

Completely get where you are coming from as I am currently going through similar with my 17 year old boy. He has Navicular and tears to both DDFT in the hoof. Prognosis to return to work is very poor and he is currently lame in trot. I spoke to the Vet today and she has said she will respect whatever decision I make but would support a pts decision, particularly as he is uncomfortable after only 5 minths since Navicular Bursae were medicated.I've been in pieces all day. ? I will do what is best by him but am going to ask for the Vet to come out and look at him and discuss in detail. I will have the land to be Able to keep him out and retired but I am bot entirely sure he is a horse that will cope being in a field for years and also whether he will be pain free.

also to add- feel free to pm me if you want to chat.

 

[Upthecreek]

It’s terribly terribly sad to receive such an awful diagnosis, particularly as he is a young horse. You have been the most incredibly attentive and responsible owner he could have. I personally would never retire such a young horse to live out the rest of their days in the field, especially not one whose condition has deteriorated so quickly. For me, there is too much risk of the horse being uncomfortable and in pain. Quite often this is not obvious if we are asking no more of them than grazing in a field. I would certainly not put him through a yard move.

It’s so hard not to let human emotions and sentiment get in the way and for this reason I dislike the notion that you owe a horse a retirement. What we owe them is a dignified end at the right time. Far better than years languishing in a field with a poor quality of life because we can’t bear to let them go. So sorry that you are in this position.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Thank you everyone I really appreciate your comments. I think you are all thinking along the same lines as me however I have conflicting advice from a couple of professionals ("time is a healer" - he will never be healed so not sure how that works) which are making things a lot harder for me.

I'm waiting for the vet to call me today and I have my list of questions to ask so hopefully then I can make a decision where I don't have any questions.

Its also hard when people on the yard ask, you explain (briefly) and they say "he would love to be retired" or "I know plenty of horses with wobblers in full work eventing, etc.".....

I've cried 3 times this morning already. That's a record for even me.

 

[southerncomfort]

I'm so sorry for you. This is such a horrible thing to cope with.

Asking a vet directly whether to
PTS or not can be difficult. I've found that asking 'would it be premature of me to consider PTS at this stage?' is a good way to begin the conversation.

Regarding the yard experts, I expect some of them are trying to comfort you, not realising that they are making it more difficult for you.

Stay strong DM. I know this is impossibily difficult but you will get through it.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I don't have anything else to add other than a big hug xxx

 

[Dyllymoo]

Vet has said he will be fine in the field in retirement. That although he is a grade 2 he is most probably having good days and bad days and will continue that for the foreseeable. So if we did it today he may show no issues as he did in September. She said she wouldn't advise PTS as his welfare isn't in question. She did say he will deteriorate but it will take months/ years and that he would be fine in a field.

She said if I wanted to PTS because of financial/ emotional issues it is a realistic option as he will deteriorate.

So that's confused me even more

 

[Roxylola]

If it were spring and we were expecting some nice weather I'd consider a few weeks or even the summer out. At this time of year, with something progressive I cant see what benefit there would be for you or for him. I'm so sorry you're in this position, it's a horrid horrid situation

 

[Roxylola]

Vet has said he will be fine in the field in retirement. That although he is a grade 2 he is most probably having good days and bad days and will continue that for the foreseeable. So if we did it today he may show no issues as he did in September. She said she wouldn't advise PTS as his welfare isn't in question. She did say he will deteriorate but it will take months/ years and that he would be fine in a field.

She said if I wanted to PTS because of financial/ emotional issues it is a realistic option as he will deteriorate.

So that's confused me even more

From the point of view of insurance PTS has to be recommended on welfare grounds. Basically she cant recommend it as hes not suffering but she doesn't think its necessarily the wrong choice if that makes sense

 

[TPO]

I hope when all is said and done you review the use of the "professionals" when that is the kind of thing that they are saying to you. I'm guessing from previous posts that the physio is one of them. That is horrendous behaviour on both a professional and personal level. I can only imagine what that is doing to your head.

The plan to speak to the vet is a sensible one and hopefully that helps you to make peace with any decision.

Yard experts are the worse. As I posted before I had all the "dressage clique" saying my horse was sound when he wasn't. Given that their horses were also lame but still ridden/tied down to lunge/competed it's clear that they didn't have a clue.

It's horrible when these people try to make you second guess yourself and attempt to make you feel guilty for putting the horse above your own wants. It is tough, I do get that you are in a horrible situation and you have ny sympathy.

Updated- just read your recent post. Is this the same vet that you saw the other day or the first vet that you couldnt get to take an interest?

 

[Dyllymoo]

The vet who saw him on Monday.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would speak to the vet who made the diagnosis and from what you told us, was very realistic about the prognosis. TBH, I would pts before the weather deteriorates, whether the insurance will cover it or not.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I would speak to the vet who made the diagnosis and from what you told us, was very realistic about the prognosis. TBH, I would pts before the weather deteriorates, whether the insurance will cover it or not.

That is the one I have spoken to. The one who saw him on Monday.

 

[IrishMilo]

I have conflicting advice from a couple of professionals ("time is a healer" - he will never be healed so not sure how that works) which are making things a lot harder for me. Its also hard when people on the yard ask, you explain (briefly) and they say "he would love to be retired" or "I know plenty of horses with wobblers in full work eventing, etc.".....

I've cried 3 times this morning already. That's a record for even me.

Don't listen to those people. They are not the ones who have invested the time and money and emotional effort that you have, nor are they the ones who will have to dedicate the next 20 years to a very expensive, unhappy field ornament. The people who have no consideration for the owner make me really annoyed - I find they're often the types who keep animals going and going and going because they don't have the guts to do what's right for the animal. I had a few of those myself.

 

[TPO]

The vet who saw him on Monday.

That's even more confusing!

A vet once told me that unless it's something like a broken leg (& even then sometimes) they cant tell an owner to pts, only offer to support them if they chose that option. The reason was apparently the chance of being sued.

I am struggling to follow this tbh. J has had a rapid decline and the issues with not knowing where his feet are and losing them would be getting to the too late point for me. I'd be worried sick about a field or stable accident. How anyone can say after his diagnosis, and now the losing his feet issues, that he is suitable to be turned away/retirement is astounding me.

I feel so sorry for you as you have done your utmost for and by him yet the people around you appear to be pulling you all over the place.

I know you would love to keep him and offer him a long retirement. Do you think that had maybe come across when speaking to the vet and influenced how they responded to you?

Again I am just so sorry. I think it's becoming clear that its near impossible to trust the opinions of people around you as they apart to change with the wind. Neither should faceless randoms on the internet influence your decision. If you are still torn perhaps a brutal list of Pros and Cons to retirement will help you? In all honestly I think you'll struggle to fill the pro side and at best its delaying the inevitable but if it helps you find some peace or closure it might be worth it.

I really hope that doesnt come across cruel. I feel for you so much and you've done everything right only to receive the devastating diagnosis and see how J has changed.

 

[milliepops]

Vet has said he will be fine in the field in retirement. That although he is a grade 2 he is most probably having good days and bad days and will continue that for the foreseeable. So if we did it today he may show no issues as he did in September. She said she wouldn't advise PTS as his welfare isn't in question. She did say he will deteriorate but it will take months/ years and that he would be fine in a field.

She said if I wanted to PTS because of financial/ emotional issues it is a realistic option as he will deteriorate.

So that's confused me even more

i think the thing about good days and bad days sounds fine from a human perspective but when the horse is stuck in a bad day, he doesn't know that a good day might be just round the corner. unlike people who have conditions that fluctuate and can try to grin and bear it on the bad days.

so basically, i think that's the vet giving you permission to either decide to let him go now, or if you need more time to get your head around it, to make a plan for the future. You don't have to make any decisions immediately.

 

[southerncomfort]

Have you considered asking the senior vet at your own practice to review everything for you?

I would contact him/her and say that you have received conflicting advice regarding prognosis, rate of decline etc which has made it difficult for you to make a decision regarding his current/future welfare.

Maybe having someone senior to take an overview of all the available info and diagnostics will help make the path ahead a little clearer.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Have you considered asking the senior vet at your own practice to review everything for you?

I would contact him/her and say that you have received conflicting advice regarding prognosis, rate of decline etc which has made it difficult for you to make a decision regarding his current/future welfare.

Maybe having someone senior to take an overview of all the available info and diagnostics will help make the path ahead a little clearer.

She called me last night, didn't even know the grades for the ataxia thing (i.e. how many it went up to) and just said I think its best you speak to the vet you spoke to on Monday. Which is what I did. I don't think they like to say anything different as then could it be construed as them going against each other, even if they aren't.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I need someone to put his front shoe back on, I'm getting a second opinion from someone independent on Wednesday and we will go from there.

I feel awful today, worse than I did this morning. I don't know what is for the best and i'm so sick of being confused.