Ridden issues - basic

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Horsekaren

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As a lot of you will know i'm very much a novice rider, i'm really trying to make progress this summer but it seems every time i do my horse wants to throw another test at me.

Firstly, i have gone back to his original tree'd saddle as i don't know if i'm confusing him with the soft tree and my awful seat. Original saddle has been refitted and is no longer slipping.

The issues i have been facing the last couple of weeks is rushing, i walk around to warm up, ask for bend and flex to get his attention however when i then ask for trot he takes about 3-4 strides of trot the bursts into Canter and locks his neck (some times for 1 - 2 20m circles, the only thing i can do is pull him in a circle. I then continue and he will try it about 3 -4 times, he will then stop trying to canter but will then rush in trot and drop his shoulder.
Once we have moved up a gate from walk once when i ask him to come back to walk he will do so for about 2-3 strides then starts to jog (he has been doing this since coming back into work, never did this last year at all). I am half halting every time i feel him start to jog but i dont know if this is actually confusing him if he thinks i'm half halting to ask him to prepare :/ I tried working on this the other day by every time he jogged i would half halt right then left then as soon as he came back i let the reins go, he would then do it again and again and we didn't really get anywhere with it. My instructor has been asking me to make him halt which again doesn't seem to be working and has mentioned potentially trying a slightly stronger bit (gag)

Another one of his tricks is now a fake spook, he will be trotting a long, start to rush, drop shoulder and spin.... i ended up underneath his front foot the other day (i always wear a body protector and thank goodness he swerved rather than put his weight on me). Every time i come off i always jump strait back on but this time i just sat on the floor thinking i don't know what to do. I then lunged him and got back on for a walk around after. I have watched the videos back and i can see he did give me a few signals that i missed, when i spot the signal what can i do to catch him, i literally have one second to act but not sure how. I know these are fake spooks because when he does a real spook he will go forward, maybe spin but he doesn't drop his shoulder.



I have a great instructor who is really helping me but they aren't there every time i ride so i need to be able to nip some of these issues in the bud and soon.

A friend rode him and said he was just being a git, it seemed true as she was firm and fare and after about 20 mins of battling he worked over his back, relaxes, listened and was beautiful for 25 mins.... she did say it wasn't easy though.
 
tristar said:
lunge before every ride.
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I did trot him on the lunge for about 4 mins and he did about 30 seconds of canter before my lesson the other day and as soon a i asked for trot off he went bombing around.

how long would you suggest doing it for?
 
How much schooling do you do in walk... just walk, without even thinking of trotting?

Does he come nicely into your aids at all while walking around? Can you walk around completely on a long rein, both of you completely relaxed?

Horses aren’t “gits” they are are confused/unsure/insecure/scared/worried/hurting, and occasionally they will give in and do what is being asked despite all of the other feelings.

How much hacking do you do? Is he safe to take out and do some very relaxed, long rein riding out and about?

At the moment, he probably isn’t back up to full fitness after his health issues, and he may be very worried that what is being asked of him is going to hurt or be uncomfortable.

Try taking everything right back to basics (yawn, I know...) do lots of schooling in walk (and there are millions of exercises you can do solely in walk), lots of stopping and starting just from your seat - no rein AT ALL, until you both get confidence in one another.

Forget about doing anything else for the time being.
 
IMO lunging before every ride will just lead you to have an even fitter horse in a few weeks time and tends to make the situation worse.

Horse is fresh -> lunge horse then ride -> horse gets fitter -> horse is fresh. It’s a viscous circle!

The horse sounds like he is tense or worried. I know you state your instructor is ‘great’ however if you read your post back your instructor has recommended halting when he jogs, you don’t feel this is working. The instructor has also said about changing bit to a gag which it doesn’t sound like you have done. (Not that I believe this at all the way forward) Your post also leads me to believe that the instructor hasn’t given you much homework for when they are not there.

Because of the above I would try having a lesson with another instructor or getting a reputable professional rider to school the horse a few times a week and give lessons to you.
 
lungeing to see what mood he in, how much energy he has.

he may need 15 or 20 minutes, to settle his mine that this is work time, and for you to see how his mood changes into an attitude ready for work giving you both confidence and relaxation'

i would start of with a walk on the lunge, he needs lots of warm up time, then a steady trot, on both reins, in the last 5 mins a canter on both reins, if he goes into trot or canter and gets exited , let him, let him work through his excess tension and energy, just aim for an eventual nice lunge warm up.

as you are a novice you will learn a lot from this , you will see how he reacts, how his energy and mood change on different days, and it will instill him a work ethic that will help both of you enjoy the ridden work, also he will become fitter and more able to cope with the schooling.

if he is potty or just idle let him be, for the first few minutes, then nicely and politely start to ask for a more tidy way of lungeing, aim to get him to respect you and enjoy your time together, without danger of being dumped, this should not be happening,


go straight and in squares when he gets under control the lunge, yes it will take time, but in three months he could well be a different horse, and you will need to ride more confidently as it all knocks on and actual progress can be made
 
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I really do think that you need to try a different instructor. Your current one may be helping when she's there but it doesn't seem she's giving you much to take away. You really need someone who is breaking down and logically piecing together your progression.

Ultimately running through the bridle and being lazy and behind the leg are different sides to the same coin - either way the horse is seeking to ignore your aids. In your case I would guess that this is because he is a bit confused so would rather avoid the issue altogether. Therefore I don't believe another tack change is any kind of answer.
 
he does sound like he's tense and finding what you are asking difficult/confusing-so he rushes or spins to evade it. My pony is 9, he's an experienced hacking pony but he's green in the school-he finds some things difficult and we are a long way off trotting good circles let alone cantering one! and I am an out of practice rider who's not as fit as she should be-so I cannot get the results I want quickly and its not fair of me to ask when I'm not up to it. we school in walk with a few walk-trot transitions- lateral work (he's not done any before) , halting, a little rein back and leg yield, turns on the forehand/haunches, figues of 8 around cones on a long rein off my seat etc-all of which will make him an even better hack.

its a good idea from supsup (the Udo Burger book is fab), you dont teach relaxation using speed. a small figure 8 exercise is also a good one for a tense horse-do it for 5 minutes in walk until he relaxes and then call it a day for that session.

schooling in circles on a surface is hard work-keep it simple for both of you right now and enjoy it.
 
supsup said:
Have you tried simply getting on and standing still? This is a great article:
http://peterdecosemo.weebly.com/blog/he-pulls-like-a-bloody-train1

If you have time, I think it is a very low risk thing to try (and you don't need any especially advanced riding skills either), and it may help your horse settle down, stop rushing and spooking.
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I love this article. When training Police Horses I wrote an article about when doing a first nuisance training session (flags, fire, noise) my first job was to be on the school early enough to check my email, browse Facebook and send a text or two. As the author says, by the time all that was done the fire breathing monster had lowered his head, and rested a back leg, in the right frame of mind to start work.
 
DabDab said:
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I really do think that you need to try a different instructor. Your current one may be helping when she's there but it doesn't seem she's giving you much to take away. You really need someone who is breaking down and logically piecing together your progression.

Ultimately running through the bridle and being lazy and behind the leg are different sides to the same coin - either way the horse is seeking to ignore your aids. In your case I would guess that this is because he is a bit confused so would rather avoid the issue altogether. Therefore I don't believe another tack change is any kind of answer.
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This, he sounds confused and so do you, you need someone involved who will find the key which should not be resorting to a stronger bit to fix what is essentially a communication problem, I would be working him in walk far more, there is so much you can do without trotting to get him more established and confident, most rushing is due to tension and lack of confidence, they think they are doing something wrong so rush off which then causes the rider to try and correct it which creates more tension in you both, go back to the very basics in walk and get some help that will break things down into steps that you can both understand and cope with.
 
101 schooling exercises by Jaki Bell. Start at the beginning and don't move to the next exercise until you've cracked the one before.
 
he just sounds like a forward going buzzy cob who knows he has the upper hand and isnt paying you the slightest bit of attention!

different trainer, more lessons on both him and other horses..............the friend who got a tune out of him-can she teach you? she must have half a clue if he went so much better! current instructor hasn't progressed you at all by the sounds of your posts............
 
I would get a saddler out who can show you different saddles e.g. Balance or Lavinia Mitchell. It sounds to me like a discomfort issue - the horse feels it can't relax rather than it won't.
 
Again i cant stress enough my instructor is brilliant, i have had a few and this is the first one where i get off every time and feel i learn something, i overcome something and understand something. We always work through and end on a high so no more needs to be said there. If i didn't think it was working i wouldn't be paying for it :P

This is the rushing, this entire video i am only asking for trot, his walk looks horrible because he has just done what he does in this video at the bottom of the school so i am having to hold him back so its not pretty, he has his run, starts to come back to me.... then sneezes and i lose him again. evasion? I know i look tense but its because i was as he just did it to me a second before. This was strait after warming him up and getting him listening.... or clearly not listening.
[video=youtube_share;svxRWDNg3-E]https://youtu.be/svxRWDNg3-E[/video]

This video is the jogging, i have asked him to come back after some trot work and this is what he does again .... evasion.
[video=youtube_share;wye8aSm_8a0]https://youtu.be/wye8aSm_8a0[/video]

I wont bore everyone with more videos but he will walk beautifully into a contact either before i have asked for any trot work. He does work in a nice active trot and stops rushing, working through his back but i have to battle the above to get these.


I agree confusion is a big part of it but i cant help but feel he is pushing boundaries and trying to take charge, confused or not when i ask for trot and he burst off ... im not using any canter Q's so surely some of it has to be cheekyness ?
 
ok you arent asking for canter but you also arent really asking him to stay in trot!

he rushes, because he's a buzzy sort, you rise quicker, he trots quicker, you rise quicker, he loses his balance and bingo-canter....... however its a combo of rising slower, core and gentle hands that will keep him steady and its virtually impossible to explain how to pull but not hold and use the rein but grab, over the internet.

a gag will not help this btw and that alone makes me think you need a new instructor!
 
Hallo2012 said:
ok you arent asking for canter but you also arent really asking him to stay in trot!

he rushes, because he's a buzzy sort, you rise quicker, he trots quicker, you rise quicker, he loses his balance and bingo-canter....... however its a combo of rising slower, core and gentle hands that will keep him steady and its virtually impossible to explain how to pull but not hold and use the rein but grab, over the internet.

a gag will not help this btw and that alone makes me think you need a new instructor!
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Yes, i would say that is spot on, as this was our second ask for trot (first attempt was the same) when he is so buzzed like that (you see the first time he canters he has only given me a few strides of trot the boom) I haven't even got a feel for my trot by that point let alone had a chance to slow my rising down so i just go faster and faster then pooof off we go.
As for the feel ...i know :( its hard.

What were your thoughts on the jogging? to me inexperienced eye i see a lot of invasion, he will come into my contact then jog to get out of it, stick his nose up, anything. Its hard to see but i am releasing every time he comes to walk and as soon as i release off he goes. He had lost his buzz by this point, if i asked for trot again it was lovely, not rushed ect

As for the bit i dont think that is purely just because of the above videos there is a bit more to it but before i try changing things i want to see if going back to the original saddle helps things.
 
He looks like he's having a proper jolly, and you're just along for the ride!

I don't really agree with some of the comments above - I do think ponies do things which we perceive as them "being a git" for reasons other than being worried or confused. They're not machines, they do things for all sorts of reasons - because it's easier than doing as they're told, or because they're fresh, or they just enjoy going for a wee canter when you're not asking for it. I also think some horses have a sense of humour, and a cheeky side - pushing boundaries just because they can. None of this means you shouldn't consider all the reasons he may be unhappy, or unsure, or that you should beat him or bit him up harshly - but I do think to over-simplify horse behaviour and remove their capacity to make their own choices does them a great disservice!

I do agree with DabDab that you need different input from a trainer. If you like your current one, that's great - but I'd recommend trying out some others too, so you get better input that putting a gag in his mouth. Bitting up will only make him stronger in the long run. He needs to learn to respect your hand - and you do need to be stronger to do that, but not in the hand - you need to be stronger in you core, so you're sitting up, not leaning forward, and you can actually enforce what you want (without socking him in the mouth). I would suggest that you're probably giving him mixed messages with your seat, partly by leaning forward and gripping, so you probably are giving him (unintentional) canter aids.

If any of mine were to try and knob off in canter, they'd be in a one-rein stop before they'd travelled a couple of feet. In the past, when I had a cob like him as a teenager, and used to ride other people's, I used to just kick them on through it until they were thoroughly sick of cantering - that works with some horses, (though I probably wouldn't try it on a blood horse!) - but you do have to mean business. And I think that's part of it - really meaning business. I do think many cobs really need to be "told" that they're doing something, not asked. I don't mean beating, or being hard, unkind or pushing the horse - I mean being firm, and only ever asking for something if you *know* they can do it, and you can (and will) make them do it.
 
The second video first, to start with you are tipping forward, with straight arms and bracing against him, once he starts to walk you do sit deeper for a bit but as soon as he tightens slightly you respond by tipping forward again so he is getting mixed signals, I would like to see you sit on your bum, soften your knees and lift your hands, also try doing something rather than walking on such a large circle, I would rarely walk that far without doing something , either a transition, smaller circle of some spiraling in and out, he needs his brain more engaged.

First video really reflects what goes on in the second, he is walking, sort of, down the long side, goes onto a circle and you allow him to trot, he interprets that as go faster because you are never really asking him to do anything constructive, you need to make far more use of the school, have a lot more variety of movements to use to your advantage than just going large or 20m circles, he should be doing 10m ones, spirals, leg yielding, more acute turns to get him listening and interested, how much hacking do you do and do you ever use poles in your work?
 
I agree with hallo and JFTD. In the first video you allowed him to trot but you then didn't actually make him trot on properly and correctly, and the next thing you are letting him hop up into canter.
 
agree with the 2 post above I would also put him on a much smaller circle in the trot if his cantering off, then use your seat to slow the trot down as mentioned above rise to the speed you want him to go not the other way round.

I know your only a novice rider but I would be inclined to ride on a bit of a shorter rein and bend your elbows more and bring them back, as when he rushes your arms come forward and then his just running on his forehand and everything is just going out the front door, if you have him more in your hand you tend to have more control all round the contact will also be softer and more inviting for him to soften into.
 
i did a good cobby exercise with a young girl on her cheeky little mare the other day...............pony doesnt rush but tends to day dream and freestyle it a bit and then use her solid neck to push past the aid asking her to listen.

in walk, halt on the track, ask him to move 3 steps completely sideways to the inner track then halt. then 3 steps back to the track and halt. then walk on.

first few times mrs cob barged straight forward and wouldnt even entertain sideways. we backed her up a couple of steps,halted and asked again.

after 4/5 repetitions the pony was really listening and then when we moved to trot was already softer and paying more attention.

riding squares with turn on the forehands as corners is also a good one and you can trot, halt, TOF, trot on, halt, TOF etc too so that it works when you move up to trot.
 
How old is he?
I’d not do a full long side in any pace just yet, keep him on circles and turns, lots of little movements around the school but don’t just turn his neck- make sure you are turning him by his shoulders. Your instructor will help you with this.
I’ve re-schooled a fair few strong cobs over the years and I’ve had a few that use the set-and-run routine. I don’t believe horses will be naughty just because they want to, but sometimes if they aren’t understanding something, or feel a bit stressed/tense or even bored by what they are doing, there are those who will take matters into their own hands. Diva did it when I got her as a 6 year old. She would set her neck, grab the bit and tank her rider out the arena. Getting control of her shoulders was the key with her.

I will say though, if he goes into trot and you didn’t ask, don’t let him continue. Otherwise it rather sets the tone that he’s in the drivers seat and you’ve come along for a merry day out. He should only be allowed to stay in trot if you asked for that trot to begin with.
 
Well going entirely against what everyone else is saying, he's lame in the off hind and I would hazard a guess that is why he looks choppy in walk, is running on in trot and putting himself into canter, because he's sore.
 
Thanks for the replies.
Yes i agree every time he goes faster than i am in my head i go tense tip and pull, I read somewhere that when we do that we are subconsciously trying to go into the fetus position .... i must have been a very happy fetus as it seems to be my go to for everything.

He does walk if i mix things up a bit more, ie change shapes, directions, bends ect but when i feel tense or when he is being speedy Gonzales i tend to keep him on a 20 meter circle and a 10 meter circle if i lose him there.

When my friend rode him the other day, she said to the girl riding in the school with her to stand in the middle for a moment as he wasn't listening and cantered him around for a good 3 mins, when he was tired she made him go ect. I liked this but i dont want to do that every time i ride. it takes me about 20 mins to build up to some canter, i dont want it to be a punishment for him.

I do often use poles but again if he is being cheeky he will stomp on them, run around them, pull out, fall over them ect. He will go over them nicely but every so often he isnt in the mood and i have the above. I love changing directions and reins and he really starts to soften and listen... but i tend to start on a 20m and work up to things one he is listening, i suppose just go strait into it?

As for transitions, i would love to work on walk and sort transitions but until i get the jogging sorted i think it pointless and if anything its making the jogging worse.

I know it sounds silly but how to i sit on my bum, i try to open why hips, my bum shoots out behind me, the only way i can sit on it is if i pull it under and feel all curled up and hunched :/


As for a Core, where can i buy one of these? there seems to be mash potato like podge when my core should be lol
 
Horsekaren said:
I love changing directions and reins and he really starts to soften and listen... but i tend to start on a 20m and work up to things one he is listening, i suppose just go strait into it?
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You have this backwards - changing directions, going sideways, making more complicated patterns is how you get them listening, not something you do when they are listening!

I can't see any lameness, but it's pretty low res and jerky on my screen, so I wouldn't say there wasn't either!
 
Rowreach said:
Well going entirely against what everyone else is saying, he's lame in the off hind and I would hazard a guess that is why he looks choppy in walk, is running on in trot and putting himself into canter, because he's sore.
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The trouble is I think that a lot of posters have already highlighted the possible physical issues going on here and it feels like there are only so many times it can be said (here and elsewhere). If that makes sense?
 
Rowreach said:
Well going entirely against what everyone else is saying, he's lame in the off hind and I would hazard a guess that is why he looks choppy in walk, is running on in trot and putting himself into canter, because he's sore.
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vidoe is low res and small on my phone but looks more bridle lame than anything.
 
Horsekaren said:
Thanks for the replies.
Yes i agree every time he goes faster than i am in my head i go tense tip and pull, I read somewhere that when we do that we are subconsciously trying to go into the fetus position .... i must have been a very happy fetus as it seems to be my go to for everything.

He does walk if i mix things up a bit more, ie change shapes, directions, bends ect but when i feel tense or when he is being speedy Gonzales i tend to keep him on a 20 meter circle and a 10 meter circle if i lose him there.

When my friend rode him the other day, she said to the girl riding in the school with her to stand in the middle for a moment as he wasn't listening and cantered him around for a good 3 mins, when he was tired she made him go ect. I liked this but i dont want to do that every time i ride. it takes me about 20 mins to build up to some canter, i dont want it to be a punishment for him.

I do often use poles but again if he is being cheeky he will stomp on them, run around them, pull out, fall over them ect. He will go over them nicely but every so often he isnt in the mood and i have the above. I love changing directions and reins and he really starts to soften and listen... but i tend to start on a 20m and work up to things one he is listening, i suppose just go strait into it?

As for transitions, i would love to work on walk and sort transitions but until i get the jogging sorted i think it pointless and if anything its making the jogging worse.

I know it sounds silly but how to i sit on my bum, i try to open why hips, my bum shoots out behind me, the only way i can sit on it is if i pull it under and feel all curled up and hunched :/


As for a Core, where can i buy one of these? there seems to be mash potato like podge when my core should be lol
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you wont sort the jogging UNLESS you work on transitions and basic lateral stuff.
 
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