riders jumping in lower classes then what they should! tut tut!

[Rudey]

Since July I have been out of the riding scene nursing a badly broken ankle.

As much as it pains me to do it, I look through equestrian photographer websites that cover my local haunts.

I don't know why I tease myself lol, it's a killer looking at all of the great photos and wishing it was me!!!

but then....

I came across photos of a combination I jump against in unaffliated open sj & xc.... they were jumping in a novice class!!!!

The horse and rider combination have been competing well throughout the year without any time off, no injuries of horse or rider and no confidence issues of the same. I just think it is so unfair as the combination have a fantastic partnership and win hands down. What about those people/horses/combination of both, who genuinely are novice... how are they supposed to compete against them!

Give them a chance pfffffffft! Some people just don't seem to want to test themselves, take a chance on a course. It's just easier to enter a class where they 'know' is below their capabilities JUST to bring home a winning rosette. I think it's sad. Why do it?? That's not true sportsmanship!

 

[Carsmore]

I agree! Pothunters!

 

[3BayGeldings]

Maybe they were jumping HC

 

[eoe]

We have a couple of them round our way and it they were HC they would not be in the results.

 

[Shay]

It really annoys me. Dd is competeing at 2'3 / 2'6. Occasionally we'll do a 2'9 as a stretch. Then along come these individuals who win every class from the 1'9 to the 3'3. The people competeing at a lower level just don't stand a chance and it is so disheartening. Entries are expensive and it is rotten to get to a show - usually little local shows, we're not talking afficilated here - pay your entry fees only to discover that the same combination has entered every class up to the open.

Not to mention the strain on the horses! When I was younger you simply didn't put your horse into more than 2 clases - which all had jump offs - in a day. I accept two phase is slightly different but still 6 - 8 classes in a day seems to me to be too much.

Old lady rant over......

 

[Kayfm]

I agree. Its the same in showing and dressage. Im a real novice at dressage (and you can see this clearly) and I notice talent in the intro a and intro b etc

As soon as i have mastered the intro's then I will not compete in them any more to give someone else the chance .

 

[soulfull]

Afraid its the same old story where ever you go.
I don't mind in jumping if someone just doesn't move up as such because they are too nervous to jump higher, but when you know that's not the case it really is annoying and disheartening

 

[ester]

I jump bigger unaff as there a less people in it so = more chance of a rossie! and less need to madly jump off.

However if I have somewhere else to be later in the day or if it is evening showjumping then I will do the smaller classes and normally just about get placed certainly not win it!

show centres round here do have a 3 classes max rule though so you have to pick your height for the day.

At our shows we only tend to put restrictions on for the first class because otherwise you do yourself out of entries and relies on peoples honesty anyway.

 

[Kat]

Our RC have a rule that if you enter pre-novice you can't also enter the open show jumping. But you can do any three show jumping classes if you want to. Most people do two and then maybe a showing class or dressage test. Three classes generally seems to be the norm for liveries and people using school horses, probably less for those travelling.

There are certain partnerships that consistantly enter novice classes though, and some who ignore rules about not to have won a previous class.

 

[The_snoopster]

It,s been happening since the beginning of riding clubs, i,ve watched the same people enter the same classes year after year and never attempting to move up a class to give others a chance. Maybe they are nervous or don,t feel able to go up a few holes i don,t know, I don,t compete but it would be nice to see some other riders have a different coloured rossette.

 

[ester]

there are so many reasons though

they might be nervous
their horse might not be capable (or is a bit of a short arse like mine)
their horse is now getting older and they dont want to push it unnecessarily.

I would rather see people compete and enjoy themselves at a height they are happy with, if you want competitions to be more heavily regulated so this doesnt happen you need to affiliate.

Its difficult with no prize money, if you say not to have one a first then you can guarantee you will get some person who is very novice win on a quiet RC day which they are ecstatic about but then worry that they are going to have to go up a level when they/their horse arent really ready yet. Its quite a difficult balancing act.

 

[Hullabaloo]

[ QUOTE ]
there are so many reasons though

they might be nervous
their horse might not be capable (or is a bit of a short arse like mine)
their horse is now getting older and they dont want to push it unnecessarily.

I would rather see people compete and enjoy themselves at a height they are happy with, if you want competitions to be more heavily regulated so this doesnt happen you need to affiliate.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have a lot of sympathy with this view - I have a horse who could jump bigger courses, but I like to stick with what I enjoy rather than frighten myself silly.

However, I see the reasons you have listed as different from someone who enters classes at a significantly lower level than the level at which they and their horse are currently regularly competing.

Some (probably a minority) people are just out and out pot hunting which I think is unsportsmanlike. I also wonder what possible satisfaction they can get out of such easy wins.

 

[ester]

oh yes that was a reply to snoopysue, I slight deviation from the op.

I have to say unaff, particularly in winter round here there are def no easy wins! they all go like stink!

 

[KatB]

QR
Playing devils advocate here... if there are people that always win in the classes you are competing in, what stops you from stepping upto their standard to be competitive, instead of waiting for the standard to drop so you stand a chance!?

 

[Rudey]

Nope unfortunately not, they weren't HC - they won!!!

The combination have been out and about jumping well in the open classes since spring, and getting placed!!

She's a local girl, and I know she hasn't had any sort of 'issues' to warrant going in a lower class for a confidence giver, otherwise I would have been more sympathetic!

If she went HC - that would be okay

.... but she didn't!

If either her or her horse had an injury or bad experience, then fine

.... but no!!

If she was riding a novice horse then yes of course she should jump that level

... but it wasn't!!

I can appreciate if a novice rider rode this girls horse, why they would go in novice.... but.... (there's always a but)... at one of our other local RC shows, if the horse has out jumped that class, even with a different rider, the horse isn't allowed in unless they go HC!

I agree with what Hullabaloo says, what satisfaction can you get out of such easy wins. It's hardly an achievement to be proud of when you are outdoing genuine novices.

I agree with alot of your posts. There are plenty of riders/horses/combinations which may have been jumping Novice for years but aren't ready to step up a level for one reason or another. I think it would be awful if they were pushed to a higher level before the combination were ready. However, overly confident - dare I say 'cocky' combinations, that win the same class time and time again, need to step it up a gear IMO! Open riders which DO NOT have any issues, should NOT go in an novice class unless they go HC.

 

[Theresa_F]

I took Stinky out for the first time and we did the 1'6 HC - he probably could have been capable of doing 2'3 course but I wanted to start tiny. We then did the 2' and left it at that.

The little girl who said to me you are second in the 1'6 was so pleased when I told her no, she was second as I was not taking a rosette.

Next time we will do 2' and 2'3 and go from there.

Personally organisers should not allow any competitior to do no more than 3 classes and they must be in sequence, ie 2, 2'3 and 2'6, and the horse on the day the same, ie not able to be ridden by another person in a higher class.

I really would not get any satisfaction from going in a small class if I could jump well higher.

This is why I now only do the larger local (if they are running various qualifiers) or affiliated showing as Stinky is turning into a nice show horse. Winning at a tiny local show would be so unfair and not an achievement for us (sorry to sound bigheaded).

 

[KatB]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally organisers should not allow any competitior to do no more than 3 classes and they must be in sequence, ie 2, 2'3 and 2'6,

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand what you are saying there... but I have a young horse who hasn't been out much, but is very capable.

If I go to a new venue, I may pop her round a small class so she can see everything and then a bigger one at the end of the day which is what she is more capable of?! I am unlikely to be competitive in either, so should this rule be just for people that are likely to win?! Or should I compete HC in the smaller class, just because I am competing in a bigger class too, even though my horse would fit the "novice" criteria of the first one?

Just very interested to know how people decide individuals are "pot hunters" as there seems to be differences in opinions?

 

[sare_bear]

I went to a local venue to an intro show to do dressage. The show was specifically for getting either inexperienced riders and/or baby horses into a dressage arena. It was my horses first show. Most horses there were very green, some could go in an outline and some couldn't. However, there was a rider who was in a different league. She was clearly a 'dressage rider' and her horse was a strapping big warmblood that was in a novice/elementary shape. Was not sure this was the place for them??

As a result they won both prelim classes by miles and took the only prize money. Pot hunting?? I leave that to you all to decide.

 

[Theresa_F]

If I wanted to do say 2' or 2'3 and then later go in a 3' class, I would go HC in the lower one on the grounds that if I can do a 3' course, I should easily do the small one and have a very good chance of getting placed.

Hence, why I went HC in our first competition as he could easily do such a tiny course, but I wanted the first experience to be a good one for both of us, and he would have been 2nd - with no effort on our part.

Alternatively I would just do a clear round at the lower height and then compete in the higher classes.

I can see your point, but still think the three classes in sequence rule if you want to actually compete is a good one to weed out those who just go out to pot hunt.

 

[KatB]

Hmmm, difficult one.

Its very admirable for you to have gone HC

The problem is, if people should go HC just because they can easily do it, there would be no such thing as competitive classes for horses at the 65cm category, as any horse can "easily" do 65cm

Bottom line is, if people are getting away with doing novice classes under the rules, the rules maybe need looking at, but the person is doing nothing wrong.

I agree as much as the next person that the ones that go out every week and win the same class seem a bit unsporting, and to me I don't see the point. However, if they are paying the entry fee, and there is no rule to stop them, then why not?

Its then back to my original "devils advocate" post

 

[M_G]

This is the rule at our yard you can do the first two/three classes but not any higher so you have to make your mind up early on what height you are doing.. We are unaffiliated and really just for fun

 

[LadyRascasse]

but does that got for me then? on sunday i did a 2ft CR and 2ft3 class we would have been 3rd if we were riding club members. i did that small because although my horse can jump 1.10m loose and 3ft ridden we haven't made it round a full course due to refusals etc. she would be capable of bigger tracks but she needs the confidence in herself.

 

[Mithras]

I agree with you OP, it isn't very sporting. And its tiring for the horse. The aim of competition should be to progress, unless there are very good reasons for not doing so, such as unsoundness of horse or rider (!). Not to win as many rosettes as possible or to exhaust your horse. If your horse is jumping consistently at a much higher level then there is no excuse for pot hunting. Different if its the beginning of the season or the first show outdoors and your horse is spooky. My mare jumps 1.15 but isn't established and loves the occasional 1m speed class at an Intro Show. When I say occasional, I mean about 3 times a year! She would clear up at my local unaffilliated show but I only ever do the Open and Chase Me Charlie, because theres just no challenge otherwise.

I don't even think jumping is the worst discipline for it, and at least in BSJA you can't really jump say Newcomers on a Grade A. Dressage is much worse, showing is pretty bad for it and eventing too. I remember posting on here about a rider who had got a fantastic write up in H&H for winning quite a lowly class on an established 4**** horse bought for megabucks for her by her parents (at 19 I am guessing she had not bought it with her own earnings). I remained unimpressed by her riding skill and more so by the riders she beat, no doubt on far less expensive horses they had even trained themselves. So why did H&H have to write her up as if she was a great British up and coming talent?

And it isn't always good for the horse. I have a friend who has a very expensive (cost £7000) 7 year old which was winning at British Novice as a late 4 year old. Its still in British Novice, can't even jump clear round Discovery and she does riding club 2 feet 6 stuff with it. The reason it hasn't progressed is that it was out every virtually ever weekend doing British Novice, showing, novice cross country, novice dressage, etc and its switched off mentally, is bored stiff, has a bit of a back problem and has become careless over jumps, never having learned to exert itself and make a proper bascule over a bigger jump.

 

[KatB]

[ QUOTE ]
but does that got for me then? on sunday i did a 2ft CR and 2ft3 class we would have been 3rd if we were riding club members. i did that small because although my horse can jump 1.10m loose and 3ft ridden we haven't made it round a full course due to refusals etc. she would be capable of bigger tracks but she needs the confidence in herself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I don't understand. From everything thats been posted, no-one would be bothere dby you doing that as you obviously have a reason?!!

 

[SusieT]

I agree with KAtB ...

 

[Annagain]

At my riding club as long as there are enough entries, we have "grass roots" sections and open sections so that although you do the same classes, there are two competitions - one for those not placed 1-3 at that height/level and on for those who have. It means people like me who have to jump fairly small due to horsey's injuries even though we used to do bigger don't steal any glory for more novicey riders, and we can compete knowing that our victories are valid ones.

For the dressage, the grass roots section for prelim classes can be done in any tack to encourage people to have a go, if they are placed in non dressage legal tack, they can stay at grass roots but have to ride in dressage legal tack from then on. If they are then placed in dressage tack they move to the open section. It's a bit complicated but it works well as long as you are organised and keep good records!

 

[tabithakat64]

Pot hunting really annoys me, I see it a lot at local level.

I think it's really unfair, that people can compete in a walk and trot dressage test and also the prelim and novice tests at the same dressage event, the same with people who jump in novice, intermediate and open classes at the same show or those that show locally and are also winning affilated classes.

The reasons classes are catagorised is to give novices, nervous people or those who have green horses a chance to compete and hopefully improve.

What annoys me most of all is when local events state that a rider shouldn't compete in a class if they've won it a similar class a certain number of times or competed at the level above, but people compete in them anyway, the boost about winning rosettes they don't deserve!

 

[Rudey]

Theresa_F, I really admire the fact that you went HC in the class to give others a chance, but in all honesty, you fitted the bill for that class! First time out, of course you should have been entitled to that much deserved rosette. (Well done by the way xx)

Being a showing novice - I am pleased that you stick to your higher level showing and not wipe up at smaller local events! I have competed against a couple of people that you can see from a mile off that the combination are pro showing quality... then win!!!

In my opinion, even if your horse clears 3foot plus courses at home, it doesn't mean it will get round a 1foot course show jumping at a proper event.

[ QUOTE ]


If I go to a new venue, I may pop her round a small class so she can see everything and then a bigger one at the end of the day which is what she is more capable of?! I am unlikely to be competitive in either, so should this rule be just for people that are likely to win?! Or should I compete HC in the smaller class, just because I am competing in a bigger class too, even though my horse would fit the "novice" criteria of the first one?



[/ QUOTE ]

^^^^^^ the way I look at this, is no you shouldn't go HC just because your horse has potential to do bigger. Your horse isn't experienced in the show ring, so (s)he is classed as a novice. If you choose to do a bigger class later on, that's up to you to test you and your horse.

But at the majority of shows I go to, they won't allow the same horse to go in novice AND open on the same day, so sometimes you don't have much choice about going HC.

....plus, well known combinations, when they have out jumped a class are refused entry of the said class.

Only issue is when they go to a show where people are unaware of their experience/wins.

My point was directed towards a combination I have jumped against in open for several years, and without a sufficient reason (like a knock of confidence/injury/time off/behavioural problems), turning up to a show and jumping novice. That's a proper pot hunter in my book!

xx

 

[Rudey]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you OP, it isn't very sporting. And its tiring for the horse. The aim of competition should be to progress, unless there are very good reasons for not doing so, such as unsoundness of horse or rider (!). Not to win as many rosettes as possible or to exhaust your horse. If your horse is jumping consistently at a much higher level then there is no excuse for pot hunting. Different if its the beginning of the season or the first show outdoors and your horse is spooky. My mare jumps 1.15 but isn't established and loves the occasional 1m speed class at an Intro Show. When I say occasional, I mean about 3 times a year! She would clear up at my local unaffilliated show but I only ever do the Open and Chase Me Charlie, because theres just no challenge otherwise.



[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly

.... This is the same situation I usually am in. Sammi my 16 year old has been on the unaffiliated circuit for (omg - just worked it out and I feel old

) for approximately 10/11 years!! We have progressed up the ladder from novice to 3foot6 open.

The local show I go to I jump the 3foot - 3foot3 open, and the 3foot3 - 3foot6 open. I bypass intermediate as it is not taxing enough for my over confident neddie! Plus on that score, I don't do too much because he's getting on abit now, but mainly because I think two classes are enough for our needs

I have asked the organiser of the show when I am fnally riding again, is it ok if I go HC in lower classes so I don't put overly much strain on my ankle, and plus, if all things go well, I will have had over a years break from riding, so will want a gradual introduction for me and Sam-I-Am!