Riding 2 year olds?

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pipper

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I am just watching Helecopter Heros on Tv. A race jockey had fallen and broken his ankle. His wife said he was riding one of the 2 year olds when he fell. Which got me thinking.....
On this forum if any one dares to say they are backing/riding a 2 year old or indeed sometimes a 3 year old, all hell breaks loose. With shouts of abuse and cruelty! And if an ad appears with a 2 year old being ridden it is slated and everyone throws up their hands in horror!
But in the racing industry its just an everyday occurance. So why is it that there is not as much hue and cry about this practice? If it is so awful as HHO's say - why are there not petitions and posts about it?
Discuss.....
 
There are some schools of thought that tb's mature quicker than other breeds. When I was in racing, I rode plenty of 2 year olds and never thought it strange at the time.

I have no idea whether there is any scientific basis for the belief that they are more mature, all I can remember is that some I rode felt and appeared very mature and others were clearly weak and still growing. The weaker ones never ran as 2 year olds.

No idea really who is right and who is wrong, am not a vet so don't know the exact effects of this practice.
 
Sleipnir said:
There's too much money involved for people involved to care...
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Agreed, but it never seems to be mentioned on here - even though there are many many 'horror' posts about youngsters being backed to early or people getting slated because they are schooling/asking too much of their babies....
 
Love said:
i also don't think a few petitions will change how such a huge industry works and runs...
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Again I agree - but I just wondered why more fuss isn't made by the HHO members, that always seem to jump on a post that has any little mention of something that isn't quite 'correct'. Its only my musings.........just got me wondering.....
 
pipper said:
Again I agree - but I just wondered why more fuss isn't made by the HHO members, that always seem to jump on a post that has any little mention of something that isn't quite 'correct'. Its only my musings.........just got me wondering.....
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just wanted to apologise, my post came across as much blunter than i intended! Although i agree with everyone re the money i don't think its right. When i was at the races and watching the horses in a 2yo class go round the parade ring they just looked like babies. very sad.
 
I've sat on my 2yo. Bareback in the indoor school and got led a circle on him. Was lying across his back one day and he was so chilled I just hopped (clambered) on. I don't think it's a big deal. I'm not heavy and it was for 2 minutes. Nice to know he was so chilled and it'll give me more trust in him next year when he gets started.
 
Love said:
just wanted to apologise, my post came across as much blunter than i intended! Although i agree with everyone re the money i don't think its right. When i was at the races and watching the horses in a 2yo class go round the parade ring they just looked like babies. very sad.
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No need to apologise Love, I didn't think the post was blunt - my reply also gave the wrong impression. Its hard to write without sometimes making it look wrong! Its a good discussion....
 
saddlesore said:
I've sat on my 2yo. Bareback in the indoor school and got led a circle on him. Was lying across his back one day and he was so chilled I just hopped (clambered) on. I don't think it's a big deal. I'm not heavy and it was for 2 minutes. Nice to know he was so chilled and it'll give me more trust in him next year when he gets started.
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I don't think you sitting on your 2 YO for 2 minutes can be compared to racing a 2 year old and the work involved to get it fit
 
saddlesore said:
I've sat on my 2yo. Bareback in the indoor school and got led a circle on him. Was lying across his back one day and he was so chilled I just hopped (clambered) on. I don't think it's a big deal. I'm not heavy and it was for 2 minutes. Nice to know he was so chilled and it'll give me more trust in him next year when he gets started.
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but thats a lot different to hammering him round a racecourse at that age
 
No in no way, but this post is about sitting on them in general is it not? Saying that an eruption would happen if people thought it was happening outside the racing industry? Lots of horses are started early, numerous gypsy cobs for example. Many American and Australian horses are started early too. I don't personally agree with doing too much with a youngster but it goes on.
 
Ive leant over my 2 yo but not for long. Its a different kettle of fish in the racing industry, plus the jockeys dont weigh very much in the 1st place. Also, is there any evidence of the racehorses suffering? Ie in later life are they crippled with back problems? Worth a look :)
 
pipper said:
I am just watching Helecopter Heros on Tv. A race jockey had fallen and broken his ankle. His wife said he was riding one of the 2 year olds when he fell. Which got me thinking.....
On this forum if any one dares to say they are backing/riding a 2 year old or indeed sometimes a 3 year old, all hell breaks loose. With shouts of abuse and cruelty! And if an ad appears with a 2 year old being ridden it is slated and everyone throws up their hands in horror!
But in the racing industry its just an everyday occurance. So why is it that there is not as much hue and cry about this practice? If it is so awful as HHO's say - why are there not petitions and posts about it?
Discuss.....
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Ok, well I am going to explain something:
1] T.B.s are taken to the stallion on 14th Feb onwards in order to ensure they are born early.
2]The mare is well fed, so the foal is well nurtured.
3]The youngstock are well fed, and prepared for the job in hand.
4] The racing industry has flat races for two year olds, so it is expected a precocious type will be raced when it is officially two [all have their official birthday on 1st Jan], AND actually two and a bit.
5] The are often lightly backed at two, using lightweight professional riders. The precocious two year olds may be out on the gallops by mid February, but only light cantering.
Only professional lightweight riders are used.
There has been hue and cry about racing two year olds, but the traditions are strong and the whole breeding industry is geared to breeding stock, many valuable races are for two year olds. I am not making excuses, this is how it is.
There is some evidence that training horses young is harmful, there is some evidence that it is not.
My own view is that it is not the training of the good young horses that is harmful, it is the over - racing of horses which are run like greyhounds in the low grade races, running too often and pressing too hard for short term gain.
If you go on to the Mark Johnstone site you will see that he has many more two year olds, less 3 year olds and fewer older horses, but this does not mean that all the two year olds were not sound at three, it means it is not economic or for other reasons, not worth to keeping them in training to that age at a top yard.
 
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Carrots&Mints said:
Ive leant over my 2 yo but not for long. Its a different kettle of fish in the racing industry, plus the jockeys dont weigh very much in the 1st place. Also, is there any evidence of the racehorses suffering? Ie in later life are they crippled with back problems? Worth a look :)
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Well they certainly suffer from limb problems which is probably from the amount of hard work they do at such a young age
 
When there is big money fuelling it, it is hard to stop.... I mean smoking is bad for you, but because of the money generated they won't stop making cigarettes.

For me, it is not only about the physical side, but the mental side too- and at 2 I personally don't think any horse is mentally mature enough for the demands of ridden work- racing or otherwise, also how many racer end up broken (literally in some cases) or PTS before they are 8 years of age?
 
Spot_On said:
When there is big money fuelling it, it is hard to stop.... I mean smoking is bad for you, but because of the money generated they won't stop making cigarettes.

For me, it is not only about the physical side, but the mental side too- and at 2 I personally don't think any horse is mentally mature enough for the demands of ridden work- racing or otherwise, also how many racer end up broken (literally in some cases) or PTS before they are 8 years of age?
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I can't disagree, all I can say is that since retiring from racing and therefore no longer being involved with hundreds of horses per annum, in seven years, I have reported three cases to the SSPCA, I have never reported any racehorse.
 
I have backed two year olds to if they are well handled you get them backed and riden in the school with very little work then turn away I don't think that harms them.
It's probable that lots of TBs pay for the early start with their soundness.
But as to why we are not up in arms I only fret in life about what I can influence and I can't influence that I can influence my own horses lives and that's what I fret about .
 
MrsD123 said:
I can't disagree, all I can say is that since retiring from racing and therefore no longer being involved with hundreds of horses per annum, in seven years, I have reported three cases to the SSPCA, I have never reported any racehorse.
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But there have been some apauling cases of retired TB's racehorses and many end up in very unsuitable homes .
 
A couple of years ago I had two NF colts. One was really difficult, messed up and we took lots of time and care backing him. The other was a year younger and as quiet as a lamb. We did everything to the younger one at the same time, mainly to reassure his older, fragile friend. As a result, when we first threw a small child onto Duke he was only 2.

Half of our rides at the time were short hacks around town with small children on lead rein. We took Duke out with us several times on these little pootles, with a lightweight but experienced child on board. Due to his confident, quiet nature it gave him an interesting 'seeing the world' trip out (similar to being walked out in hand, I suppose), and he learned what was expected from the other quiet hacking ponies, with no pressure at all.

It's not the approach I would usually go with, but it worked for him.
 
Love said:
just wanted to apologise, my post came across as much blunter than i intended! Although i agree with everyone re the money i don't think its right. When i was at the races and watching the horses in a 2yo class go round the parade ring they just looked like babies. very sad.
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I don't think it is sad, they are not sad, why would they be sad?
 
My boy was broken at 18 months raced at 2, was entered ad ran over hurdles at 4, chased at 5, broke down badly, given to me at 6, had a year out in field, and is now *touches wood* a nice little RC prospect for the future,
So i dont think for horses like this its a good thing but I have known a horse that raced from 2-13 and retired soumd.

My old boy raced on the flat from 2-6 from 6-12 he jumped and from 12-15 he pointed, he was kept racing fit untill the age of 18 where he was gifted to me. The lack of work meant the poor old boy caught up with himself and he became very lame.

I don't really know what my point is at all now :/
 
I've lightly backed some youngsters in their 2nd year, others I've left till their 4th or 5th year. All depends on the horse. I'd personally prefer to see a 2 year old pottering quietly around the bridleways than see a 3 or 4 year old being ridden in an outline in a school. Horses for courses.
 
I did not disagree, one of the three was an ex Sheik Hamdan [a cast off], the new owner did not know how to look after it, that was not the fault of Sheik Hamdan, one cannot stop horse falling in to unsuitable homes [Spindles Farm and others]
The horse was sound, just not getting looked after properly.
I have seen loads of ponies being ridden when it is obvious they would not pass a two stage vetting. What does one do, shoot them all? ? The owner may not realise it, but they are well loved, does one say.... not sound, shoot them?
I used to take my yearling [Section D] out for walks she was a real beauty, but I refused to sell her to a family because I knew they would want to start riding her, and ruin her.
I would have let a knowledgeable family take her, At two, she could have carried a light child round the menage on a lead rein using a felt pad, but was not ready to be broken mentally or physically.

Northern Dancer was broken at 2, raced at two, and served mares till the age of 25 when his sperm count went down.
 
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saddlesore said:
I've sat on my 2yo. Bareback in the indoor school and got led a circle on him. Was lying across his back one day and he was so chilled I just hopped (clambered) on. I don't think it's a big deal. I'm not heavy and it was for 2 minutes. Nice to know he was so chilled and it'll give me more trust in him next year when he gets started.
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ive done the same with my (then) 2 year old....even whacked a saddle on her and hopped on....didnt "ride though"..... thats the difference i think people are getting at....


mines now 3 and im breaking her in - very gently and plan to ride, in walk only in spring :)

too cold to be arse breaking over winter properly!!.... so groundwork only!! :)
 
Goldenstar said:
I have backed two year olds to if they are well handled you get them backed and riden in the school with very little work then turn away I don't think that harms them.
It's probable that lots of TBs pay for the early start with their soundness.
But as to why we are not up in arms I only fret in life about what I can influence and I can't influence that I can influence my own horses lives and that's what I fret about .
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This.

TBs bred for racing are considered as a commodity and not bred for longevity. The vast majority of HHO members keep their horses for pleasure and want//expect them to live usefully at least into their twenties.
 
For a racehorse to be any good at two years old it needs to be strong, well grown and mentally mature enough to cope with it. The ones that aren't dont do well so its not in anyones interest to put them in work. My point is these racers broken in at 2 are not your normal horse - they are bred to mature early. I am not saying I agree with it but Ive worked with 2 year old racers and they are physically very differant to any 2 year old of any other breed that I have ever seen. They are also very differant to NH TB. Its all down to the breeding.
 
fatpony said:
For a racehorse to be any good at two years old it needs to be strong, well grown and mentally mature enough to cope with it. The ones that aren't dont do well so its not in anyones interest to put them in work. My point is these racers broken in at 2 are not your normal horse - they are bred to mature early. I am not saying I agree with it but Ive worked with 2 year old racers and they are physically very differant to any 2 year old of any other breed that I have ever seen. They are also very differant to NH TB. Its all down to the breeding.
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It nature and nurture all over again, Northern Dancer has been the most influential sire in the last 100 years, yet he was not viewed as anything outstanding until he had sired generations of prime horseflesh.
Northern Dancer was "not sold" as a young horse due to his small stature, he was good racehorse, but it was his offspring who blazed the trail, and in turn they became super sires.
Northern Dancer
Danzig
Nijinsky
Sadlers Wells
Shareef Dancer
El Gran Senor
Unfuwain

A really good horse will be held back if he is immature, he may have a race late in his two year old career, but his target is three year old races.
 
Spot_On said:
When there is big money fuelling it, it is hard to stop.... I mean smoking is bad for you, but because of the money generated they won't stop making cigarettes.

For me, it is not only about the physical side, but the mental side too- and at 2 I personally don't think any horse is mentally mature enough for the demands of ridden work- racing or otherwise, also how many racer end up broken (literally in some cases) or PTS before they are 8 years of age?
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I don't know, and neither do you. I have seen a lot more unsound horses outside of racing than inside racing. The difference is that the owners have no idea.
As for mental capacity, you should be aware that the horses are all handled by professionals from the day of conception onwards, the handler will be strong and confident and the rider will be experienced, "in loco parentis"
Yes a few are not able to cope, but that is generally because they are not handled professionally and this is more likely to happen after they leave racing than before.
If you research racing from the 1950's onwards you will see that racing as a business is a quick way to lose a small fortune. In the 21st Century, as always, the owner needs to have plenty of money to have a racehorse, not many will make a profit.
 
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