Riding Access, Bridleways, Itinerant Keepers, Farmers and Landowners who are unreason

[Judgemental]

Things have been a little quiet on this forum and there has been a complete lack of controversial debate, so I thought I would inject a little on the subject of Riding Access, Bridleways, Itinerant Keepers, Farmers and Landowners who are unreasonable.Who want to demonstrate their power and influence and every Tom, Dick and Harry who dilute riding access. That includes speeding car drivers.

What a ‘bute’, I guarantee everybody on this forum who hunts, has at one time or another encountered one or other of the above.

Now is the time to pour out your heart about the time you were only nine years old and some beastly keeper or farmer told you should not be where you where!

We all know about the blocked bridleways, the gun being discharged remarkably close to where you ride, the car driver who hates horses. The keeper who thinks the whole countryside should be awash with pheasants.

The farmer who will not have hounds........

 

[JenHunt]

.... hmmm, to bite or not to bite?.....

oh go on then... why not...

We have a local farmer who can't see that the reason his "birds" keep disappearing is not down to the fact that, as he puts it, "some wayward hounds got in there" (the incident to which he refers was about 10 years ago, and the hound was retrieved with no damage done to any birds), but is, in fact, due to the very large dog fox who lives in a stinking great 4 bedroom detached den and regularly raids my hens for take out!

the same farmer is convinced that 1 landrover parking 200yards from his yard entrance consitutes "blocking him in"

 

[RunToEarth]

God yeah, really hate those farmers who disagree with hateful riders ripping up their crops.
Or not, guess you have to understand land values and stresses of farming it to appriciate why they get waspy.
As for gamekeepers- yeah, if I were a gamekeeper I would hate horses too.
And the bridleway debate? If I had my way there would be none.
Lots of love

 

[Alec Swan]

These days I refer to myself, as a "reformed 'keeper"! I try to look at the problems from all sides. When I was a 'keeper, mostly when I was in Heythrop country, I've seen hounds draw a large wood, where I've known there to be several hundred pheasants on a feed ride, and to my astonishment, virtually nothing was flushed, and when I fed the next morning, the feed ride was as full as the previous day.

Riders hacking down woodland rides? To be honest, it never really bothered me. Providing that they were quiet and didn't have dogs hunting out the woods, then it was generally someone to stop, and pass the time of day with.

I think that these days, the mounted field are generally kept off drilled ground when the going is soft. If they aren't then those who farm have every right to complain. Growing corn isn't the profitable job which it once was.

The vital point is that we have to coexist, without that we will have division, and with predictable results!

Alec.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Alec, who did you keeper for in the Heythrop, Lordy or Mr Brown, i was working as a groom for years in that area?

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec, who did you keeper for in the Heythrop, Lordy or Mr Brown, i was working as a groom for years in that area?

I was at Cornbury Park, for Lordy, mid '70s!! Halcyon days!!

Alec.

 

[mon]

sometimes wonder if non farmers deliberately set out as farmer haters, what i dislike is the motorised hobbyist who trash b.o.a.t.s. as a farmer invested hard earned time and money in land and glad we only have a couple of little used footpaths.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

I was at Cornbury Park, for Lordy, mid '70s!! Halcyon days!!

Alec.

wrong Lordy i think unless you mean Coln St Aldwyn which is where i was from 70-75.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

looking at Cornbury you were with Lord Rotherwick so my mistake!

 

[Paddydou]

We used to have a local game keeper who would shoot any dog off a lead be it on the footpath or not. He even shot a dog that was walking ahead of its owner on one of those retractable leads. It was horrific.

The land owner eventually got rid and got a new one who is equally as grumpy but doesn't shoot unless he has to!

I have also been told off for riding on some publicly owned land... Sadly it was by the MOD and I was in the middle of a mock battle at the time. Shouldn't have been there but it was a nice ride and used the "play it very dumb and keep smiling tactic" to get out of it! Now regularly stop and have chats with the chap who's duty it was to tell me off! How many of us own horses who have actually been in the middle of a battle??? The old boy it has to be said was superb as only he can be!

I am on side with the farmers though. I have seen riders churn up crop for the sake of a canter and cause thousands of pounds worth of damage. Sorry but the its not crop because it hasn't grown very big yet idea does not wash with me!

We have some bikers near by who use the local tracks but then we also have a dialouge with them and they work hard to clear the tracks and tidy up after themselves. I am very lucky in my immediate area that we are all able to share and get on together after all we are all out for the same thing in the end!

 

[houndsplease]

haha you can tell RTE is part of the farmer brigade. if all farmers had the same attitudes the sport you love so much would not exist.

 

[RunToEarth]

haha you can tell RTE is part of the farmer brigade. if all farmers had the same attitudes the sport you love so much would not exist.

If you asked any farmer in the UK about horses hammering their crops, they would say the same, it doesn't mean they don't allow hunts on, does it?
My parents have hunted and allowed the hunt for many years, my OH whips in and whinges about how much mess he has made on his own fields. The balance is always toppled when someone rides on grass margins they shouldn't, goes crop side when they shouldn't, crosses tram lines when they shouldn't, or can't stand their horse still- which is largely why I think field mastering is such a thankless task- how many people can honestly say they can remember every single grass margin to keep on/off of and recieve very little thanks for it week in, week out?
Largely (IMO) farmers are a lot more accepting of hunting than they are of hacking, but farmers will always need something to moan about.

 

[JenHunt]

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the farmer's point of view, and I think every hunt has their fair share of grumbly farmers/landowners/keeprers, but as RTE says most of them are reasonably accepting of hunting. We really only have the one really awkward dealing (as in my original post) who is out and out unreasonable!

 

[mon]

hunting is seen as a social for many farmers and since the hunt ban i have leaned towards accepting them, i now hunt a few times a year hopefully more with my young horse, allow them over my farm and that s my choice, why should every tom dick and harry beable to ride over my farm and i get nothing back, at the moment never paid when i have gone with the oakley.

 

[Orangehorse]

My OH is not a lover of horses at all, but since the hunting ban he is far more enthusiastic about hunting.

Still even I was annoyed when I had to chase our cattle back into their field when someone left a gate open - I think it was foot followers who "thought" the field was empty, but the cattle were tucked into a corner and decided to go exploring later all over a field of winter wheat. I too shudder when I look at the damage the hunt will do to a field of grass. I don't think it matters much before christmas, but later on in the season the damage doesn't repair so well.

I know a lady who was a tenant farmer who hates horses because they used to have the hunt over their land, jumping the hedges and upsetting the stock, and they couldn't do anything about it as the landlord had the sporting rights. She also complained that riders from a local equestrian centre were looking in her windows. I said they were probably admiring themselves in the reflection, but she didn't think that was funny.

 

[Judgemental]

The balance is always toppled when someone rides on grass margins they shouldn't

I thought this subject would 'kick' off here and there.

Grass Margins....... GRASS MARGINS frankly I could not care less! No it is no good arguing about this - grass margins are subsidised by the tax payer.

Farmers only get upset about folk riding on them because, the men from DEFRA etc allegedly can see hoof prints with their satellite.

As far as I am concerned, we are all entitled to ride on grass margins, because we pay for them and he who pays the piper calls the tune. That goes for the vast array of farm gate subsidies generally.

I guarantee that will upset somebody.

 

[RunToEarth]

I thought this subject would 'kick' off here and there.

Grass Margins....... GRASS MARGINS frankly I could not care less! No it is no good arguing about this - grass margins are subsidised by the tax payer.

Farmers only get upset about folk riding on them because, the men from DEFRA etc allegedly can see hoof prints with their satellite.

As far as I am concerned, we are all entitled to ride on grass margins, because we pay for them and he who pays the piper calls the tune. That goes for the vast array of farm gate subsidies generally.

I guarantee that will upset somebody.

Well, I genuinely disagree, and ELS factors such as grass margins are inspected in person, who generally can hoof prints.
To be honest, I'd guarentee what gets most farmers' backs up is your attitude.
It isn't particularly difficult to realise that the vast amount of profit generated by the british food industry is pocketed by the likes of 7 or so national supermarket chains, evidently the government are in agreement other ELS payments would not exist. It also isn't particularly difficult to respect the land on which you ride- JM, are not always the one who is rodgering on about etiquette and manners, yet you wouldn't mind hooning on someone else's grass margin?
I'm not particularly upset or angry by your comments, if you hunted with us and rode on someone's grass margins, which the field master had told you to keep off of, I would honestly think you were a massive idiot, and not particularly well informed or well mannered.
After all, once every farmer has had their ELS payments stopped for the hunt riding across grass margins, and farmers are out of pocket as a result, where will you be hunting then, roads, tracks and some dear old love's back garden?
There are a lot of things subsidised by the tax payer I do not agree with at all, but screwing over your own hunt country as a result of it is surely not a sensible thing to do?

 

[Orangehorse]

Well if someone from the hunt went where they were not supposed to and the farmer got into trouble with DEFRA then the hunt would be banned. Whether or not the culprit thought they had the right to be there or not.

DEFRA officials come out to inspect farms and they take measurements and make sure that the information they have on the form tallies with what they see on the ground. If the rule is that margins must not be ridden on, and there is evidence that they have been damaged, that is a breach of the rules and has financial consequences.

It is also very impolite to go where you have been asked not to and remember that you are there by invitation and not by right.

So there you are, an annoyed farmer! Well done.

 

[Judgemental]

Run to Earth and Orange Horse. For clarities sake when I started this thread it was not access for the hunt that I had in mind.

It was individuals probably for the most part out on exercise and/or hacking.

I fully accept that when hunting, one goes where the master or field master directs. There is no argument about that.

However out on private exercise is another matter. Because the farmers I know are obsessive about the subject and try and claim for grass margins alongside actual bona fide trackways that are bridleways. Where there is a genuine trackway i.e of historical provenance and marked on the map. I guarantee they will claim at least two metres eitherside. They are mindfull to keep the hedges cut back and actually mow the grass.

Then moan when somebody so much as puts on hoof print on the grass.

Don't even think of having a canter on it, a whole two miles of inviting mown grass alongside trackways. It not grass margin it's part of the bridleway. That is why I could not care less.

Why do I have a feeling this one is going to run - may be because it involves, MONEY and the opportunity to abuse the system!

 

[tootsietoo]

can't add anything on grass margins unfortunately as I don't know how the payments work.

on access - we are on an estate where all the leases oblige the tenant farmers to permit access to the hunt, and I know a lot of them feel that the hunt takes advantage of this. a bit more diplomacy is called for probably. I do worry sometimes, when I am enjoying my day's hunting, about what the farmer of the field I am churning up thinks about us hooning over it. I know our immediate neighbour is pretty philosophical and says he's fine about it if everyone spreads out, and he also lets me canter on his grass in the winter. I know others can't bear it, but have no choice.

 

[Judgemental]

can't add anything on grass margins unfortunately as I don't know how the payments work.

on access - we are on an estate where all the leases oblige the tenant farmers to permit access to the hunt, and I know a lot of them feel that the hunt takes advantage of this. a bit more diplomacy is called for probably. I do worry sometimes, when I am enjoying my day's hunting, about what the farmer of the field I am churning up thinks about us hooning over it. I know our immediate neighbour is pretty philosophical and says he's fine about it if everyone spreads out, and he also lets me canter on his grass in the winter. I know others can't bear it, but have no choice.

The farmer took the tenancy of the farm in the full knowledge that there was a covenant allowing hounds access day or night. In all probability his tenancy reads, "at any time of the day or night with a specified minimum width of....."

He or she took the farm with their eyes open and probably an army of lawyers advising him or her, so "one makes one bed one lies in it".

However it is preferable simply (as the farmer) to relax and let everybody get on with it.

I am sure everybody it very polite and if you meet farmer in the pub etc, you buy him a drink. Our farmers are lavishly entertained at every opportunity.

 

[tootsietoo]

well, most of them are on their second or third succession, so inherited the farm and the lease rather than agreeing the contracts themselves with lawyers. and the obligation is not about margins, it just allows general access to the hunt, I believe.

I think most of them do relax and let the hunt get on with it. I'm not sure they are lavishly entertained though! However, I appreciate that the masters must have big job getting round all the farmers, especially as they all have day jobs to do, so it's understandable that they may not have time to do as much buttering up as would be ideal!

I was out hacking with a friend the other day and we passed an open gate into a very inviting huge grass field. she suggested that we went and cantered round it! I would never ever put a hoof near someone's land if they hadn't said I could, but I think quite a few people wouldn't give it a second thought!

 

[Paddydou]

Farmers only get upset about folk riding on them because, the men from DEFRA etc allegedly can see hoof prints with their satellite..

Jm dear chap. DEFRA don't need satallites to veiw hoof prints. I am unsure if these numbers are still current and very much hope not but DEFRA employed 2 people to measure farmer hedges for every farm worker in the UK. You work the numbers. they have no need of spy security systems when they have people already driving round in tax payer funded cars with a stick and tape to measure hedges...

 

[combat_claire]

I thought this subject would 'kick' off here and there.

Grass Margins....... GRASS MARGINS frankly I could not care less! No it is no good arguing about this - grass margins are subsidised by the tax payer.

Farmers only get upset about folk riding on them because, the men from DEFRA etc allegedly can see hoof prints with their satellite.

As far as I am concerned, we are all entitled to ride on grass margins, because we pay for them and he who pays the piper calls the tune. That goes for the vast array of farm gate subsidies generally.

I guarantee that will upset somebody.

As a Chartered Surveyor I am astounded by the arrogance and ignorance of some of the comments on here.

Grass margins generally form part of the Entry Level Scheme, which is designed to protect wildlife, landscapes, historic features and natural resources. Payment for those entering into voluntary management agreements is set at a flat rate of £30 per hectare.

If a farmer is found to be in breach of his Entry Level Scheme agreement then he will be subject to a penalty. This can be a stoppage of part or all of future payments, forced to repay all or part of payments already received and can be banned from entering any other agri-environment scheme for 2 years.

The guidance in the ELS hand book for 2010 clearly states that there should be no tracks, compacted area or poaching. It is a fact of life that horses hooves cause damage to land.

In addition to these there are cross-compliance requirements for the single farm payment which state that there must be an uncultivated margin 2m from a hedge or watercourse on the farm. The farmer must take all reasonable steps to maintain a green cover on land within 2 metres of the centre of a hedgerow, watercourse or field ditch;

If a farmer is found in breach of cross-compliance then the penalties can be severe and up to 5% of the total payment due, if the cross-compliance is breached again then the penalty will rise to a maximum of 15% of payment due. A further breach will be viewed as intentional on behalf of the farmer and the reduction can be 20% or as high as 100% of the entire single farm payment.

To you it might just be an enjoyable canter on a jolly little hack across a small strip of land; to my farming clients it can represent a massive loss of income over all the land entered into a stewardship agreement or receiving single farm payment, which in turn can affect the viability of the whole farming business.

 

[RunToEarth]

Run to Earth and Orange Horse. For clarities sake when I started this thread it was not access for the hunt that I had in mind.

It was individuals probably for the most part out on exercise and/or hacking.

I fully accept that when hunting, one goes where the master or field master directs. There is no argument about that.

However out on private exercise is another matter. Because the farmers I know are obsessive about the subject and try and claim for grass margins alongside actual bona fide trackways that are bridleways. Where there is a genuine trackway i.e of historical provenance and marked on the map. I guarantee they will claim at least two metres eitherside. They are mindfull to keep the hedges cut back and actually mow the grass.

Then moan when somebody so much as puts on hoof print on the grass.

Don't even think of having a canter on it, a whole two miles of inviting mown grass alongside trackways. It not grass margin it's part of the bridleway. That is why I could not care less.

Why do I have a feeling this one is going to run - may be because it involves, MONEY and the opportunity to abuse the system!

I constantly fail to see why people who do not own, rent, farm or have any interest in the land in any way feel they have some right to ride across it at the price of a farmer's ELS payment, why are horsey people so damned ignorant?
You just sound like an idiot who has absolutely no idea what you are on about- stick to the bridleways JM.

 

[Starbucks]

Off topic a bit but:

1) Rosie your sig is looking very posh!!
2) We don’t have any regular bridleways around us (non on OS map) but there is a system of bridleways that is something to do with some sort of DEFRA scheme?? Farmer has left grass round the edge off a load of fields – it’s great!! Does anyone know about this? Would the farmer be getting paid or something? Don’t know what I’m talking about.. just out of interest!

 

[Orangehorse]

Thanks Combat Claire - I couldn't have put it better myself. I can just see the poor farmer with the DEFRA man looking at the hoofprints on the grass margins saying "I tell the b....gers to keep off, but they take no notice."

The permitted bridlepath schemes are great if they have been put in the right place. They are part of the Higher Level Scheme and are a 10 year agreement. We have one close to me and it has made a huge improvement to my hacking. Still, I know of others that no one would ever ride on, and have been a waste of money from the taxpayers point of view, although I don't blame the farmer for taking advantage of the scheme if offered.

Unfortunately the new Government is not going to carry on with these payment for access schemes, so when the agreement comes to an end in 10 years the option will no longer be available (unless Labour get re-elected and reinstate that scheme.) Cue writing to your MP?

It is quite lucrative. Made even my mother-in-law pause when I told her how much our neighbour must be making out of his bridlepath! I love it. I just worry what will happen when it comes to an end. Maybe offer to make it a TROT scheme so we pay to use it. Might be worth it.

 

[Judgemental]

As a Chartered Surveyor I am astounded by the arrogance and ignorance of some of the comments on here. Of course you are, farmers pay your professional fees. Grass margins generally form part of the Entry Level Scheme, which is designed to protect wildlife, landscapes, historic features and natural resources. Payment for those entering into voluntary management agreements is set at a flat rate of £30 per hectare. Another comfortable way of saying farmers in receipt of such money are on Benefits, rather like Housing Benefit or Job Seekers Allowance. Removes the stigma does it not?

If a farmer is found to be in breach of his Entry Level Scheme agreement then he will be subject to a penalty. This can be a stoppage of part or all of future payments, forced to repay all or part of payments already received and can be banned from entering any other agri-environment scheme for 2 years. Just the same with Benefits

The guidance in the ELS hand book for 2010 clearly states that there should be no tracks, compacted area or poaching. It is a fact of life that horses hooves cause damage to land.

In addition to these there are cross-compliance requirements for the single farm payment which state that there must be an uncultivated margin 2m from a hedge or watercourse on the farm. The farmer must take all reasonable steps to maintain a green cover on land within 2 metres of the centre of a hedgerow, watercourse or field ditch;

If a farmer is found in breach of cross-compliance then the penalties can be severe and up to 5% of the total payment due, if the cross-compliance is breached again then the penalty will rise to a maximum of 15% of payment due. A further breach will be viewed as intentional on behalf of the farmer and the reduction can be 20% or as high as 100% of the entire single farm payment.

To you it might just be an enjoyable canter on a jolly little hack across a small strip of land; to my farming clients it can represent a massive loss of income over all the land entered into a stewardship agreement or receiving single farm payment, which in turn can affect the viability of the whole farming business.

On a 650 hectare farm that is £19,500.00 - not bad for doing nothing.

 

[Judgemental]

I constantly fail to see why people who do not own, rent, farm or have any interest in the land in any way feel they have some right to ride across it at the price of a farmer's ELS payment, why are horsey people so damned ignorant? Because it is a State benefit and 'horsey' people generally do not enjoy similar benefits.
You just sound like an idiot who has absolutely no idea what you are on about- stick to the bridleways JM.

.....

 

[combat_claire]

On a 650 hectare farm that is £19,500.00 - not bad for doing nothing.

Whether farmers pay my fees for filling in their application forms or selling land for them isn't at all relevant. We all have to earn a wage and that happens to be my chosen profession.

The Entry Level Scheme is not 'doing nothing' - it costs money to put in certain options such as wild flower seed mixes, beetle banks, skylark plots, it also costs money to leave areas uncultivated. These have recognisable benefits to wildlife, which is what the payment is in lieu of. A points target is worked out on the hectarage of your farm, so your fictional farm of 600 hectares would need to take up a lot of options to add up to 18,000 points if the whole farm was to qualify. In reality most landowners only put part of the farm into Entry Level Scheme agreement. Higher Level Scheme is the crème de le crème. These are longer length agreements, which cover more specialist options and correspondingly pay more than the basic £30 per hectare of ELS.

It isn't the same as benefits because unlike unemployment benefits the public gain tangible benefits. Also a fraudulent benefit claimant is penalised because of a conscious decision to breach the rules. Your jolly little canter can damage the financial payments across the whole farm, even when damage has taken place on a small area of the farm because of a decision made by yourself and that isn't fair.

I would also add that if consumers were willing to pay a fair price for domestically produced meat, crops and milk then the single farm payment subsidy would not be required.

Interestingly horse owners with are also allowed to qualify for the Single Farm Payment, but they have to meet a minimum acreage or claim size in monetary terms and then become subject to the same rules of cross-compliance. These are quite onerous and many equestrian owners have decided they simply can't deal with the paperwork. This shows how ridiculous your claim of 'farmers doing nothing' really is.

I for one appreciate the work that farmers put in our local area. You can make as many snipes about my fees, but it doesn't change the fact that they work bloody hard, put up with heaps of red tape and some unforgiving hours for their minimal earnings. Only to be whinged at by the general public who have no concept of modern agriculture.