Riding with a hollow back?

ycbm

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I'm seeing lots of Olympic dressage riders riding with a hollow back, including our own Charlotte and Carl.

This used to be frowned on in "the old days" but I've just seen an advert where a rider is modelling sitting in two saddles with a hollow back and I'm seeing it more and more.

Is it now considered correct due to pelvis placement (it appears to tilt the pelvis forward) or something? I'm not criticising, I'm just trying to understand why something I've been told is wrong is now working well for top level riders. Or did it always happen and I didn't notice?

Picture of what I mean.

Screenshot_20231003_092319_Chrome.jpg
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Red-1

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I do think the more modern jackets that are tight accentuate this as they are tailored around the waist, and are bigger for shoulders and flared for bum/saddle.

In the olden days, there was some spare material even in the waist area.

I think as people mature, they have a different profile anyway. Front profile is often filled in, back has less absorption between the vertebrae.
 

sbloom

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Carl has always ridden like that, Charlotte it depends which saddle she's sitting in. Big blocks and high cantles push riders into anterior tilt, simple as that. Anterior tilt, for most, isn't any better than posterior tilt (rounded), neither allows the pelvis and back to absorb the physical forces between horse, saddle and rider.

The advert is shocking to me, an ad promoting how they consider the rider and allow them to select a saddle, the young rider is clearly in anterior tilt and leaning back in both photos, and the company's comments address the rider's ability with apparently no understanding that neither saddle allows her to sit correctly. The horse under that combo will NOT be able to work correctly IMO and she will end up with back issues in all likelihood.
 
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sbloom

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As long as your ear, shoulder, hip, and ankle all line up you're doing OK.

That enables the rider to work against gravity better, but not the interactions immediately under their seat, the spine needs to be correctly aligned, the pelvis in neutral, to truly optimise the horse. And ideally without tension, or of course pain/discomfort, which not only is grim for the rider but will cause tension, which affects the horse. Superb riders and trainers can get away with not being in correct neutral, just as, because they sit and ride so well, they can manage without perfectly fitted saddles. I know one trainer puts everything in a Wintec 500 dressage, set to XW, and pads it to balance it. He is the exception that proves the rule.

Look at how Charlotte rides in different saddles and see how much the horses rotate under her, affecting how they go (putting aside how we might feel about how "strong" she rides). It's fascinating when you really start looking.
 

Ceifer

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I was told by someone who trains with Carl that he’s had a back injury and that if you watch him sit to the trot he’s absorbing the movement through the front of his body. Obviously this is second hand information so might be a load of rubbish.

I think the new trend of people riding like this probably comes from the insane movement some of these big WB horses have and the fact that most saddles have ginormous knee and thigh blocks that jam you into place.
 

Marigold4

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Interesting! I too had been told not to hollow my back. When I went recently for a lesson on a mechanical horse, the instructor "gave me permission" to hollow my back. She watched me carefully, tried out different "tweaks" to my position and finally said that, with the profile of my back being as it is, I would need to hollow my back to position myself correctly. It has helped me to sit more upright and get my shoulders back, so I'm going along with it!
 

sbloom

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When good, classical riders ride like this so often it's down to the saddle, the SRS will use pretty standard saddles, riders unable to select something that supports them better.

"Hollowing the back" is relative, we need to be able to return to neutral easily. Everyone's neutral is different, @Marigold4 your neutral may look more hollow than someone else's. It's possible to test neutral off horse, the stability offered by a neutral pelvis and engaged solar plexus is like night and day compared to someone in the wrong saddle without that engagement.
 

Cortez

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Interesting! I too had been told not to hollow my back. When I went recently for a lesson on a mechanical horse, the instructor "gave me permission" to hollow my back. She watched me carefully, tried out different "tweaks" to my position and finally said that, with the profile of my back being as it is, I would need to hollow my back to position myself correctly. It has helped me to sit more upright and get my shoulders back, so I'm going along with it!
Good instructor. Everyone has their own unique shape and posture, it's working within that and getting as close as possible to a naturally effective position that is balanced over the horse and strong for the rider that is best.
 

Cortez

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When good, classical riders ride like this so often it's down to the saddle, the SRS will use pretty standard saddles, riders unable to select something that supports them better.

"Hollowing the back" is relative, we need to be able to return to neutral easily. Everyone's neutral is different, @Marigold4 your neutral may look more hollow than someone else's. It's possible to test neutral off horse, the stability offered by a neutral pelvis and engaged solar plexus is like night and day compared to someone in the wrong saddle without that engagement.
The SRS use relatively flat saddles without all the exaggerated blocks and padding in modern dressage saddles.
30315.jpg
 

sbloom

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The SRS use relatively flat saddles without all the exaggerated blocks and padding in modern dressage saddles.
View attachment 124454

I know they do, and this is all we ever talk about, the external visual markers that are easy to assess. They are Iberian equitation saddles and made by Spirig afaik.

I am talking about the shape of the seat and how it supports the pelvis or not, and then the bulk or not, and where it is distributed, under the leg in order to allow it to drape correctly. If the twist is too narrow for a particular pelvis, or the waist too narrow, or the knee lacks support, then that pelvis is much more likely to go into anterior tilt, or the rider work through pain and tension to lift off their pubic arch. A high cantle is far from the only reason for the pelvis to go into anterior tilt, the trend for narrow twists, believing them "better" and "closer to the horse" (the latter of which is seldom remotely true) is also a big cause. Flat seated saddles can have the same poorly selected seat shapes as deeper seats.
 
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teapot

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Ingrid Klimke has a much straighter back but her saddles are flatter and with mini-blocks.

Could the giant cantles and blocks on dressage saddles that help you sit enormous movement be encouragng this position too?

Depends on who she is riding, regardless of saddle (usual caveat of photo only a moment in time and I’d kill to have the talent of Ingrid’s little finger)



It’s all relative though - fitness, natural spine shape, age, etc etc
 
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sbloom

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Ingrid, afaik, always rides in Passiers, and the older/traditional styles certainly have open seats. She is sitting slightly behind her feet, and is often cited by those that believe that is correct as being an exemplar. I would rather see her completely over her feet plus she may be having to work hard to not go into excessive lordosis, hard to know.

Her horses sure go in better balance than many, but it would be interesting to see her in something tailored to her pelvic shape etc - even when riders look good, the right saddle can improve things even more.
 

planete

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It can also depend on what a particular horse needs. Some need a lighter seat than others and this can change as they become stronger. You do what works with the horse you are riding.
 

ycbm

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i can’t possibly imagine how that would be a comfortable position for a man🙈

I've thought about this and I believe it may actually be better. If the pelvis is upright and they hoik their bits out in front so as not to sit on them, then they can creep back again. If the pelvis is tipped then the pubic bone will block that happening to some extent.
 

sbloom

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It's not about comfort or trying to keep their junk in a particular place imo, when we have the right support for the bones, the soft tissue often as not takes care of itself. Either the saddle is too narrow somewhere under the pubic arch, rami or legs, in which case they may be putting up with pain, or they're lacking support in terms of pommel height (a "higher in front" pelvic shape).
 

Cortez

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I know they do, and this is all we ever talk about, the external visual markers that are easy to assess. They are Iberian equitation saddles and made by Spirig afaik.

I am talking about the shape of the seat and how it supports the pelvis or not, and then the bulk or not, and where it is distributed, under the leg in order to allow it to drape correctly. If the twist is too narrow for a particular pelvis, or the waist too narrow, or the knee lacks support, then that pelvis is much more likely to go into anterior tilt, or the rider work through pain and tension to lift off their pubic arch. A high cantle is far from the only reason for the pelvis to go into anterior tilt, the trend for narrow twists, believing them "better" and "closer to the horse" (the latter of which is seldom remotely true) is also a big cause. Flat seated saddles can have the same poorly selected seat shapes as deeper seats.
The saddles that are being used presently (or were about 5 years ago) were originally designed by Desmond O'Brien, who, despite his name (his father was Irish), was a Bereiter at the SRS before becoming a saddler. I ride (or rode) in the "civilian" version of this saddle, made by Deuber. There's a lot going on with them, deffo not narrow twist and no knee supports, but a superb saddle for both horse and me.
 

sbloom

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The saddles that are being used presently (or were about 5 years ago) were originally designed by Desmond O'Brien, who, despite his name (his father was Irish), was a Bereiter at the SRS before becoming a saddler. I ride (or rode) in the "civilian" version of this saddle, made by Deuber. There's a lot going on with them, deffo not narrow twist and no knee supports, but a superb saddle for both horse and me.

I can tip forwards (though go backwards to avoid pain) in a wide twist saddle especially if it's in a large seat size, the angle of the triangle we sit on becomes narrower as seat size increases. It's so complex. I didn't know about Desmond, I'm as sure as I can be they used to be made by Spirig so I would imagine he's taken some of those original design into the current one. Always good when we find a saddle that truly supports us correctly.
 

Cortez

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I didn't know about Desmond, I'm as sure as I can be they used to be made by Spirig so I would imagine he's taken some of those original design into the current one. Always good when we find a saddle that truly supports us correctly.
He told me that when he was originally there the old saddles used to be complete ball-crushers :oops:, which is why he ultimately decided to be a saddler and make one that didn't.....do that. He's an interesting guy, but doesn't speak english, which always makes me laugh - and my german is rubbish now, so we have weird communications :)
 

millitiger

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My neutral position has a much bigger hollow in my spine than a lot of people, even off a horse.

This can be exaggerated when riding in dressage tests when I'm trying too hard! I have the think of keeping my sternum down and in neutral which helps but sometimes it isn't what I'm thinking of when remembering the test, keeping horse in front of my leg, preparing for transitions etc.

I think it doesn't help when people think sitting up means chest up or chest out as that tilts your pelvis straight away, disengages your core and gives you a hollow spine- yet it's an instruction I hear shouted a lot!
 
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