Ringbone....or an MRI scan....

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ecrozier

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Thought I'd start my own post as didn't want to hijack the sidebone one!Latest diagnosis on mystery lameness of big mare is that the varying results from the nerve blocks were due to a rogue nerve, and we had to give more anaesthetic and leave for longer than an average horse! So we are now back to square 1, we had x rays done and the only thing we can find is a small amount of ringbone, the kind that is on the outside of the bone, not interfereing with any other structures/joints etc (inarticulate? is that the right one?). Vet said with good shoeing it shouldn't be causing anything like the problems it is
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Bit of a saga re farriers but anyway, he isn't happy with her shoes atm, managed to get someone else to come out next week (my old farrier - long story!). So....2 questions really, firstly any experiences of ringbone of this type? Secondly, vet says if this doen't work, we will end up having to take her for an MRI scan....anyone had this done?
 
Amy had low non articular ringbone. She was very, very lame initially. And then came totally sound.

I took her shoes off and chucked her in the field - and after the initial problem was never lame again. However, I did retire her - so slightly different scenario perhaps to yours.
 
Thats interesting. Know I'll get shot down for it but shoes off isn't really an option for us, she is a 700kg horse with slightly flat feet, and the countryside round here is vvv flinty. Hope we don't have to retire her! That is interesting that she was bad initially but came sound....was that after taking the shoes off or just over time?
Thanks
Emma
 
I took the shoes off because she wasn't going to be ridden - if the reccomendation had been to keep them on then I would have.

She went chronically lame overnight - and remained lame, interestingly enough, until the nerve blocks were done. After that she was totally sound. Obviously a coincidence - but I've just remebered it. I don't think that it was anything to do with the shoes comming off, more the fact that as I decided to retire her I didn't 'fiddle' with her. She was on a short term of box rest initially, then paddock rest, then out in the field with the others.

She came in very lame two months ago - (2 years after initial diagnosis) - and I assumed it was the same problem. Unfortunately it wasn't and she had done a tendon badly. Made the decision to have her pts at that point due to her age (18).
 
ETS sorry to hear you lost her in the end AmyMay.

The nerve blocks with mills were weird. He initially blocked the foot, and that didn't seem to make any difference. So we trundled off to the horsepital and he did the foot again, again not much difference. Did a 4 point block, and she came sound. So we x-rayed. Nothing apart from this ringbone. Took her home, got her re-shod to bring the breakover point back. Made no difference. Got vet back, he did the foot again, again, still lame. He tried the fetlock joint, and she appeared to come sound, so he gave an anti-inflammatory into the joint, and 4 days box rest. Came out, still lame! Vet came out after work again yesterday, blocked straight into the fetlock joint....didn't work this time! So he did her foot (axial sesamoid or something?) and gave her extra anaesthetic and leaft it twice as long before trotting her up, and she came sound. By this time he is pretty sure that it is this extra nerve or 'rogue' nerve that is producing the inconsistant results. So we are back to the ringbone being to blame! He still isn't happy with the shoes, farrier shod her when I wasn't there as needed it done asap, and he seems to have managed to not put it on straight, so we are hoping that once her foot is properly balanced she will be OK. Our vet is seriously pessimistic sometimes, and he is quite positive about her so fingers crossed. Will be v cross with the farrier (not using him again anyway) if she comes sound once properly balanced!!

If that doesn't work he suspects a tendon injury right inside the foot, but says he would expect flexion tests to affect that and they make no difference! Weird mare....
 
i had an mri done for my previous horse.
He was lame on an of for a while and had nerve blocks, x rays and scintigraphy (SP?) which all showed nothing bar a slight imbalancei in the feet. We had the MRI and it showed navicular in both front feet with one at the advanced stage.
So in my experience mri's are useful!!!
 
So navicular can be missed on an x-ray but would show up on MRI? Interesting. Hope it isn't that, although my older mare was diagnosed with navicular in 1998 and has been sound on it ever since!
 
MRI can show up a lot of things other diagnostic techniques can't - it's more like an image of a "slice" of the foot each time which makes it easier to see.
My horse had MRI in May after 3 1/2 months of undiagnosed low-grade lameness which shoed up obviously on the turn but was negligible on the straight. Vet was convinced it was navicular at one point, blocked the three points in the foot that test for navicular, and she was still lame. She consistently came sound after blocks of the pastern though. Nothing on ultrasound and x-ray, and in the end the MRI showed a tear in the deep digital flexor tendon and also degeneration and possible adhesions of the cartilage attaching the tendon to the pedal bone.
To me your horse's lameness sounds still very undiagnosed, I would be unhappy with the "well it must be the ringbone as we can't find anything else" attitude. MRI is expensive (I paid just over £1000, my insurance didn't cover much of that as we'd already spent so much nerve blocking, x-raying and ultrasounding) but in many cases it can give a pretty accurate diagnosis. The good thing about having mine MRI'ed was that we could get on with treating her, rather than faffing around trying to diagnose it.
I hope you find out soon what is the matter, and I hope it isn't bad!
 
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To me your horse's lameness sounds still very undiagnosed, I would be unhappy with the "well it must be the ringbone as we can't find anything else" attitude.

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Oh no, I think you are misunderstanding me....he hasn't said that AT ALL!! He just said that at the moment that is the only concrete thing we have to work on, so we need to re-do the shoes properly and see if that helps, if not then we go down the MRI route (as they are, as you said, very expnensive!). Did flexion tests make your horse's lameness worse Silmarion? Mills is no worse on a circle than the straight, initially was almost better on a circle.
ETS what was the treatment suggested, if you don't mind me asking?
 
O right, I get you! Sorry I'm a bit fed up with vets, mine was so reluctant to do anything (ended up changing and have a fab vet now)! I hope the shoes thing works then!
Flexion tests made no difference to Maiden at all. The only thing that changed her lameness was blocking out the pastern joint, making her sounder on the left (bad) leg and more lame on the right (think this may have been a splint, or just a compensating injury).
The treatment was only for the cartilage problem, to help stop adhesions forming and making her permanently lame she had a course of Cartrophen injections. There is no treatment for a torn tendon other than lots of time and lots of luck. She's having 11 months off being a fat pig in the field, then in June we'll trot her up and see if she's any better. She'll only ever hack again though if anything, the combination of both problems mean that even schooling on circles will risk re-injuring the site again and it's really not worth it.
So I do hope different shoeing will help!
 
Gawd, I hope that isn't what has happened to our mills. Our vet is truely fab, he is well regarded in the area as well, I would honestly trust him with my health not just my horse! He will happily take us off to RVC for the MRI if he thinks that is what is required.
If it comes to 11 months off....is it too late to cover her this year for a foal next?!?!? Only kidding. Please all keep your fingers crossed for her, and that it fixes itself soon and doesn't involve any box rest! She hates being stabled.
 
Mine was on box rest from February 26th to July 6th
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(although allowed a few hours in a pen each day). Vet advised 9 months off but that would mean bringing her back a few weeks before my uni finals which would be silly, hence 11 months until after my exams. TBH I'm happier to give her a year. If she's still lame then, then we'll loan her or keep her as a companion.
Will definately keep any spare fingers crossed, everyone seems to have bad things happening (unlucky 7 for 2007 now, I think!)
 
We just couldn't do that with Millie, we would have to retire her if the only option to get her rideable again was 9 months box rest. She absolutely hates being stabled, it would drive her mad. 4 days was bad enough, think we could manage a month at a push but not any longer. She kicks the doors, box walks, whinnies constantly....
She would have to be a broodmare I think, either for us or for someone else. She has had a foalie before and is a King of Diamonds granddaughter, so well bred. That would be such a disaster! She is 100% fine in walk, and 3/10 lame in trot.
 
The thing with tendons apparently is that they need box rest immediately after the injury, for a few months, then they need time off. Maiden has been fairly good on box rest, is enjoying her new life bumming around, and will be happy to just hack or just be a companion - I'm lucky really. I wouldn't breed from her as she has pretty bad conformation.
If it is a tendon, I don't reckon lack of box rest at this stage is going to damage her chance of recovery much by what I've heard. Don't worry though, it will probably turn out to be something completely different!
 
I've had similar problems with my mare who had undiagosed lameness. Vet couldn't locate the problem. I changed farrier who advised me not to nerve block as she'd go lame on the other side. In the end he worked on getting her feet balanced and fitted lighter weight shoes. As she has one toe slightly turned in its expected the ringbone would arise - although she'd never officially been diagosed. With careful shoeing and gradual fittening up work she's come sound again now.
She was 100% sound in walk and 4/10 lame in trot - now its only 1/10 if you look really closely.
 
Hmm, yeah, you are probably right, it has been at least 6 weeks now ince she was first lame. Mills would be happy to be a hack/cmpanion, as long as she could live out! She is well bred and well put together, only thing that would put me off breeding is the extra horse we would have at the end of it....cos I'd never be able to sell! Not sure we need yet another mouth to feed....
Hopefully it is just the ringbone tho!
 
Hmm, that does sound identical to her lameness Claire, thanks. Got my favourite farrier coming back next Friday, he gave up our area as had too many clients over his way, but has said he will come back when he heard how many problems we were having!! Just hope he will carry on....
 
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