Robert Smith's comments in Horse Deals

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He was basically saying that he shops abroad for his youngstock as British Breeders are light years behind European Breeders.

Does this make you feel sad that one of our top jumpers is not supporting British Breeding or do you feel he is right.

No axe to grind either way from my point of view, he needs top quality and he is going to go where he feels he will find the best, but not everyone aims to breed superstars and there is a market for many other sorts of horse.

Just curious really.
 
I don't have a problem with anyone shopping around, I have.

I do however have a problem with the accusations that a certain person who's name shall not be mentioned (but it rhymes with Men - Man just didn't work - Tee (ka) pill) about the standard of British Bred Warmbloods.
 
I am sure that Robert or any top rider will only care if the horse gets him from one side of the fence to the other clear day in day out. How it is bred is largely irrelevant but where can you spend the least time looking at large numbers of horses - not in the UK I am afraid at the moment.

We are way behind the continentals but that does not mean we cannot catch up and it does not mean that there are no world class stallions or mares here.
 
I totally agree with that article in Horse Deals, my thoughts were along the same lines, and what he said was true IMO, i think brits are far behind we dont breed the same over here like what they do over there, i wouldn"t want to hazard a guess of the amount of foals born over there for SJ to the amount over here,we are no where near in comparison.I think there are some people over here who are trying to breed some nice stuff,and are serious but they are streets ahead with there breeding.
 
Streets ahead in what sense SSS? In terms of numbers - which you identify at one point - certainly true, and given the relative size of the continental landmass, AND of their horse industries, we can never hope to compare. And if you breed in sufficient numbers, and are prepared to see your culls ending up on a plate, then inevitably you have a far bigger pool to choose the elite from. Also they have been more professional for much longer about how they manage their studbooks and their breeding. BUT as D69 says, no reason why we can't catch up - and we and the Irish have got it right on the eventing front for a long time now. We just have to go for the "organic farming" approach vs factory farming - which means if we are seeking to breed top SJs and dressage horses, being very, very selective about mare lines and the stallions that we choose .... And very knowledgeable! We also need to look to how youngsters are produced and brought on. We'll get there ... we have some great breeders already doing just that. It just takes time and patience and several generations -and breeders who don't get disheartened by having constant brickbats thrown at them!!
 
I agree that we are behind them in terms of SJ and dressage breeding, however, do we honestly want to start producing the mass number of horses that they do in Europe??? What with the number of racehorses born in the UK each year I feel we would then get into a category whereby we would be breeding more than we could cope with if we started breeding them on the scale of, say, PS who has in excess of 200 mares I believe, in foal to one stallion alone!
 
That reminds me actually talking in terms of numbers, I remember a commentator at the SJ world championships saying Beezie Maddon had in excess of 280 horses at home so sheer % means a couple should be pretty capable. Like above what happens to those that don't make the grade
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RBM i think they are streets ahead in everything,IMO there breeding programs are more intense and they are in it for the longhaul to produce some of the best if we could all count on one hand(which would fill up pretty quickly) the amount of great studs over there(Team Nijhof,VDL,Zangershiede,Schockemohle,the list is endless they are serious breeders over there we cant compare over here,i cant think of one big major stud that has a large amount of foals born each year regardless of only being a relatively small country i think we just dont match up i cant say we are not learning and willing to learn as there are lots of people willing to do just this, and i think (intime) British breeding will get better, but for now we are WAY behind, If we had such a great breeding programmes here, we wouldnt pop over there to import horses. Now im going to get bundled on here but this is what i think IMO and im stuck in my thoughts! I too breed warmbloods so its not a case of running British breeders down as my self would be included in this,but theres room for improvement in many ways
 
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Like above what happens to those that don't make the grade
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The same as what happens to all the other excess horses that are produced.

I don't think we should kid ourselves - ok, so they produce SJers or dressage horses that don't make the grade and go for meat... but we have excess horses too only ours tend to be failed TB's, feral ponies and horses of indescriminate breeding that nobody wants. I think its sad whatever type of horse it is.
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I think you also have to remember that for a lot of years the Irish were riding on the crest of a wave when it came to showjumpers!

Lets just look at the numbers of two Studbooks in Europe. The Hanoverians abroad have nearly 19,000 active breeding mares and the KWPN have approx 10,000 foals born each year!!

Before you even look at the quality, there is no way on this earth that the UK will EVER generate that amount of foals, and we all know that the more that are born the bigger the chance of finding one gem amongst them.

Plus the likes of Robert Smith and other showjumpers know all of the top dealers in Europe, plus each of these International riders will know somebody who knows somebody with a young horse etc....so they are bound to have a higher chance of finding a superstar. They will fly over and see a vast amount of potential horses in one weekend, plus the majority of these riders will be looking at something already under saddle, not a potential foal or yearling because that is too long for them to wait.

The KWPN have around 10,000 foals born each year, so eventually a high % of these will find their way through the ranks and riders, and if you are in "the know" you will come across these finds. Plus a lot of these bigger studs, the likes of VDL, PS, Nijhof, Eurocommerce etc will buy back young horses from those breeders who use them each year. On top of this they have "scouts" who will go round the small breeders and find the gems out there. So again they are increasing their chances of finding a top horse.

I am not saying that all breeders in the UK are breeding the same quality as Europe, but there are several out there who are, however, the liklihood is that these young horses will find themselves in the hands of amateurs or semi-professionals, and thus it is less likely that anyone will "stumble" upon them.

AND what you will also find is that there are many more riders on the continent than in the UK who will produce many of the young horses, who again are seen by the bigger riders or scouts, and thus again will find themselves going to these people, and we dont have much of this in the UK either!

We have heard of several breeders over the last year who have sold stock abroad, and indeed the British Bred "Jazz" son "Boston" who now stands at the State Stud of Schwaiganger in Germany. In fact a lot of the studs in Britain have sold horses abroad over the years.

So, yes a lot has to do about the quality of horses, but the huge numbers being mass produced on the continent has a lot to do with it. And those horses that dont make it (of which there is also a huge number of) will either end up as meat or as amateur horses. There are a good few studs who will sell some horses through a "back door" as they call it (i.e. young horses injured in the herd or ones that have not thrived etc).....i.e. they will end up on a rack.

The horses abroad on the big studs are kept as agriculture animals, in big herds, in big cattle courts and treated as such. In the sumertime they will go out to pastures all summer and in the winter they will be housed in big courts (some will have roofing along with bedding at the back, with concrete at the front for them to stand on to save their feet). They wont be handled, innoculated, have seen a farrier or anything like that. Those that the studs wish to keep as future breeding prospects will then be worked on during the middle of their second year (for stallions) and coming into their third year (for mares), the others will then be sold on.

So overall in the UK if the "serious breeders" out there wish to improve on the quality they produce that is very simple to do, just have an excellent mare, with an excellent mareline and put it to a very good stallion. However, many breeders are not catering for the International market (because there is no way that they can compete with the big studs in Europe, plus about 90% of horses sold world-wide are not to International riders!). Plus the main market is for the amateur or semi-professional riders anyway, and these riders would never be able to ride the hot headed horses that many of the International riders have in their stables.

Lets face it.....how many of you have £20,000 - £80,000 to spend on a breeding mare that is the sister to an Approved stallion in Holstein?? That is why a lot of the big studs in Europe jointly buy the offspring from such mares because they would tend not to spend that kind of money either.
 
Yes you are right, in a way you could argue its worse in Europe / USA because they have such huge production lines hoping to breed ' the one' they are creating more surplus than we will ever hope to.

There is an argument to keep things smaller to maintain the quality.
 
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there breeding programs are more intense and they are in it for the longhaul to produce some of the bes

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they are serious breeders over there we cant compare over here,i cant think of one big major stud that has a large amount of foals born each year regardless of only being a relatively small country i think we just dont match up

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SSS I was at the KWPN stallion show two weeks and I could probably count on two hands the amount of "big studs" who had actually bred the stallions they were putting forward. Despite the fact these studs are mass producing their foals, a lot of the stallions under the names of the "big studs" in Holland were bred by somebody else (probably a farmer who has only 1 or 2 foals born each year).

This is the list of stallions that VDL Stud have going forward for the 70 day test in Ermelo, out of the 8 forward VDL Stud bred only one!:


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24 Barrichello (Campione x Libero H, bred by fam. de Vries from Sappemeer)
30 Bodyguard (Cardento x Indorado, bred by W. Riezebos from Hattem)
38 Bartender (Cardento x Contender, bred by H.P. Meerte from Noordlaren)
121 Bupardie (Corland x Kannan, bred by F. van de Linden from Haaren)
164 B (Indoctro x Nimmerdor, bred by W. Abbring from Onnen)
171 Bagus D (Indorado x Lord, bred by J.C.M. Derikx from Mariaheide)
261 Bears (Quaprice Z x Jus de Pomme, bred by E. van Ittersum from Giethoorn)
299 Badelero VDL (Silverstone x Indoctro, bred by the VDL Stud from Beers)


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Out of the 100 yearling colts the year we selected Royal Geneve at VDL Stud, only him and one other ever made it as a stallion. We had Geneve and VDL Stud had the other one. What happened to the rest who knows.

A stud that breeds a lot of foals each year does not guarantee that they are all top quality despite what the bloodlines say. What is does mean is that the % is much greater at them having maybe 1-6 that will be top class...

The insurance for all the "big studs" in Europe is not only quality, but the quantity of horses being produced, and the deals they strike up with the breeders who use their stallions, or the "gems" that are found by their scouts.
 
Really fascinating to see those figures, anastasia - and really puts a lot of the arguments in context!

Looks like we need to go down a different track in the UK - maybe we should start educating our farmers??? (Its how the Irish still very successfully breed great eventers, and its just what their top dealers do, like Peter Lennard, they go "talent spotting" around the country ... ) But it certainly suggests that any strategy being developed by the lead bodies to enhance the quality of British breeding needs to be very selective about the lessons that they take from mainland Europe .... We need to develop our own model. Thoughts, Ciss?
 
Great post Anastasia, and good to see the facts.

Its interesting really, our thoroughbreds are the best in the world - produced on the same kind of mass scale that the continental warmbloods are. We are now seeing the massive problems with wastage in this industry.

You will find horses of the same quality over here in the UK - you just have to look a bit harder because we are not mass producing them.
 
Quote Anatasia : Despite the fact these studs are mass producing their foals, a lot of the stallions under the names of the "big studs" in Holland were bred by somebody else (probably a farmer who has only 1 or 2 foals born each year).

Was going to reply just this then saw you had, PS buy the winning stallions, how many "stars" have they bred out of all of those mares?? How many youngstock in the UK are just not given the chance to be seen or shine, the main comments i have heard/read from the stallion parade last week in the UK "some gorgeous stallions let down by bad riding" This for me is now one of the biggest factors, we are breeding some very capable horses in the UK, but i think many are let down on the way due to their training. Just how many of our best UK based riders go aboard and beat say the German and Dutch riders on a consistant basis?? And if they dont is the reason down to training or breeding?? If it is blamed on breeding it then raises some questions, as so many of our top riders are on European bred horses? So then surely they would be winning on these great euro bred horses if breeding was the case? So then maybe just maybe we are back to producing these horse being a big part of the problem rather than just blaming UK breeding in many but not all cases??!!
 
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the main comments i have heard/read from the stallion parade last week in the UK "some gorgeous stallions let down by bad riding"

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The above is a valid point. I know for one there is a serious lack of good trainers in the UK, and this is very prominent in Scotland for sure. I hear it all the time with dressage riders.

When we were at the Stallion Show in Holland nearly all the young stallions are ridden by young talented riders. In Germany and Holland they nurture the talented riders regardless of background, whereas IMHO in the UK unless you are a rider who has parents with money, or a family to back you then you really struggle. It is evident when you see the European teams with all their young riders coming up through, they have many to select from, whereby the UK does not seem to have "the chances" for such talented riders ever to make it.

We had the great fortune of meeting and talking to Anky van Grunsven and Frenk Jespers (from Broere Studfarm) on the 8th February, and what an insight they give you into the training available to riders in Holland, and the level given.

For instance Frenk Jespers (who himself was on the KWPN Stallion committee for 9 years) "found" the lovely "Kirsten Beckers", who currently works for Broere Studfarm and rides "Broere Jazz". She came from a normal background and was "found" by Frenk at the age of 15, and then she was given the opportunity to ride for Broere. You also have the likes of Emmelie Scholtens who rides for Stal Laarakkers, again a young rider but given all the opportunities riding the likes of "Uphill", "Westenwind", "Westpoint" and "Winningmood", with the best of trainers of Christa Laarakkers and Sjak Laarakkers, who is also on the Dressage Stallion Selection Committee. Or the young Yvonne Coppel who I have to say is not the biggest of riders, but by god she can ride the more hot stallions, and she rides many of Ad Valks young stallions (the owner of Krack C).

All the above young riders have been given the opportunities and the training. In fact I bet a lot of the above riders could probably get a song out of any horse regardless of pedigree!!
 
Thanks everyone who has been so informative re continental breeding, I had no idea horses were produced in such numbers there.
I do know my husband has always said we should have bought 50 good mares (hard to find!) years ago and just bred loads of foals to our stallion, as the law of averages using successful bloodlines would have eventually produced something good, but in reality, who wants to have such a huge stud?
I really am not aiming for world domination but to enjoy breeding horses for appreciative people, but had I been 30 years younger and starting again, doing it on a massive scale would be the way to do things, a local vet has just set up a stud using host mares and AI, and it will be good to see if he gets results; I think his mares number mid thirty already.
Also I don't think you have to be a huge stud to breed nice horses, had we accepted two of the offers we got on two horses over the years (£20k and £22k ) we could have actually made a profit.. so it can be done.
To me that's a really good price for a horse, but along the way we have bred an awful lot of £5k ones alongside those two!
I think if I were RS I would go and buy the best I could find regardless of where it was born, but the way British Breeding is heading albeit slowly compared to the Continent, he may be able to look nearer to home within a few years. (he may also find he's too old to ride them by then though..)
 
Intresting Caroline, but are going back to what Robert Smith said off the top of my head.. was Europeans light years ahead of us,Britain isnt in their league.The Europeans look at breeding much more as a business rather than a glorified amateur sport.They"re v~knowledgeable about breeding and take great pride in it.Unlike us,they have taken time to study the breeding of sports horses and its paid off.In the UK theres lots of twaddle when it comes to breeding,with people choosing the cheapest stallion and rubbish mares and then expecting to breed a performance horse. If you ask me,theres too many "experts" who dont know anything about it and they"re not willing to listen and learn.It would be alot easier if people were doing it properly in the UK rather than the mishmash weve got now..poor stallions on poor mares because we wouldnt have to spend all our time driving round Europe...this were some of his words he was saying Europe is ahead of us which going back to my comments i still agree with, i wouldnt go as far to say that we arent willing to learn as i dont agree with that and slightly think thats unfair,but i agree that Europeans are far ahead and always will be whether its the Big studs or local farmers they will Always produce what we want or need
 
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Is it just me? I'm not sure what you're saying here, sss. If you've read anastasia's posts, what are your thoughts on her evidence? What do you think about the point on the quality of production over here contributing to poor perceptions of British horses? I'm getting the impression that you are just very determined that British breeding is never going to be anywhere, and only the continental studs are ever going to be worth buying from. Its worth having an open-minded debate on here about how things can (continue to) improve, especially if you're a breeder yourself, rather than refusing to believe that things can ever be any different! That's an argument for you and all other British breeders to shut up shop, go home, and have an easier life.
 
Well I can only speak for myself, but what I would be saying to Robert Smith, is come and visit my Studfarm and prove the above!! I bet your bottom dollar that he does not even know I exist, probably like the other breeders who put a great deal of thought into their breeding programme. In fact if he reads this forum then I challenge him to the above
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. However, he is very unlikely to be looking for foals to purchase.

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It would be alot easier if people were doing it properly in the UK

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My reply to this would be - it would be a lot easier if the riders in the UK could actually be bothered to look properly in the UK

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but are going back to what Robert Smith said

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Andrea I would actually be more interested in what your own original thoughts are on breeding (ignoring the quotes of others), going with your own breeding plans and the mares that you are currently breeding with. To me that would be far more valuable.

We have taken the time to learn a great deal about bloodlines and breeding, we have spoken to many great breeders in Europe, and as such have some very good friends as a result. I can also say that several studs in Holland have said that because of the quality of our mares and their lines, that if we were to use one of their stallions, that they would be interested in the colts from them..........but what do I know.......I am only a British Breeder afterall.
 
I firmly believe that as a nation we can produce the goods, we may be a little smaller in number crunching than mainland Europe. But maybe our horses will last longer......
It seems to me that these days, a lot of the top European riders need a new top horse every couple of years, a lot of brits have a horse for years....

So lets use PS as an example, he breeds several hundred foals a year, so lets say there are a couple of thousand PS bred horses out there, Where the hell are they all?
 
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Is it just me? I'm not sure what you're saying here, sss. If you've read anastasia's posts, what are your thoughts on her evidence? What do you think about the point on the quality of production over here contributing to poor perceptions of British horses? I'm getting the impression that you are just very determined that British breeding is never going to be anywhere, and only the continental studs are ever going to be worth buying from. Its worth having an open-minded debate on here about how things can (continue to) improve, especially if you're a breeder yourself, rather than refusing to believe that things can ever be any different! That's an argument for you and all other British breeders to shut up shop, go home, and have an easier life.

[/ QUOTE ]No im not determined British breeding isnt going to get anywhere i never said that? i said i share the same opinon of Robert Smith,(if you go back to the original poster)they asked the questions, I believe Europe are ahead of us and always will be, IMO if i was thinking along them lines that British breeding wasnt going to get anywhere, I wouldnt be breeding myself and putting money into breeding, Id be driving round in a Porsche and not up to my eyeballs in horse muck! On Carolines evidence i said it was intesting to hear the figures, but all the end of the day theres no getting away from the fact that Europe are ahead of us and have better horses,whether it be Big studs or local farmers, If Britain had what we need, and what we want, we wouldnt need to go to Europe to buy.I think it good that British people will continue to buy from Europe(as we do need to like it or not) to strengthen our breeding programmes over here This debate can branch off in many ways from the original post but my opinon stays im afraid and thats not slagging British breeding off as I am British and do breed myself! I think we have lots to learn, but everyone learns different things everyday and even the most knowledgeable are still learning even the big boys of the breeding world i hope this is clearer as it makes sense to me tapping away but may not to others
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I believe Europe are ahead of us and always will be

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If this is your belief then can I ask why you would bother to breed then (I am not saying this in a detrimental way BTW), because basically what you are saying is that even the stock that you end up breeding will be substandard regardless of whether you are breeding today or in 20 years time, and it wont make any difference about what you learn along the way, as you will feel that you will always be behind the rest??

Also will you tell any prospective buyers that they are better off going abroad when you try and sell your own youngstock? I dont think so.....it is likely you will tell buyers how wonderful these young horses are along with the prospects they will have....you may even use "world class" in your adverts in some way...who knows.

You only have to look at the results being made by some of our studs to see the progress made. Nobody can take away the results made by the likes of Brendon Stud and their stallions in showjumping. The Billy Stud have many young horses coming out. Catherston have been a producing top quality horses for years. Balcormo Stud in Scotland have produced International showjumpers. The great mare "Opportunity B" bred in Scotland by Birkland Stud, has won just about everything she has ever entered. I am not saying we are breeding hundreds of world beaters, but we cannot forget the results that have been made over the last few years.

Lastly, the more we tell ourselves that we cannot breed the article then the more we convince ourselves and any future clients of this fact, and that does not make any good business sense at all. To come across positively to people you have to have the same mind set, if you have belief in yourself and what you do, then that shows and people then trust what you are telling them.

I guess the difference with myself is that I have a great belief in my own breeding programme, with the mares I am using and with the stallion choices I make. The fact that my beliefs are backed up by breeders in Germany and Holland looking at future stock, makes me think that I must be on the right lines.
 
I remember a few years back that the Irish always had to ride Irish bred horses in their teams, they did phenomenally well with them and were as proud as punch of them as a result.
It is a great shame that we couldn't start bringing that rule in that at least some of the team, whichever discipline it is, had to ride British bred horses.
Imagine the hunting around for the best animals by the best riders and the lift this would give to British breeding! It would give our horses the chances they deserved to be produced for the highest grades by the highest regarded riders, because, let's face it, our horses are certainly good enough, they just need the right riders to get hold of them which just isn't happening often enough now.

Pie in the sky? It would be wonderful to think not if the selectors could get behind us and make it happen; it's the lift British breeding needs.
 
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I remember a few years back that the Irish always had to ride Irish bred horses in their teams, they did phenomenally well with them and were as proud as punch of them as a result.
It is a great shame that we couldn't start bringing that rule in that at least some of the team, whichever discipline it is, had to ride British bred horses.
Imagine the hunting around for the best animals by the best riders and the lift this would give to British breeding! It would give our horses the chances they deserved to be produced for the highest grades by the highest regarded riders, because, let's face it, our horses are certainly good enough, they just need the right riders to get hold of them which just isn't happening often enough now.

Pie in the sky? It would be wonderful to think not if the selectors could get behind us and make it happen; it's the lift British breeding needs.

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what a bloody good idea
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