Rollkur - why? What does it achieve?

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Obviously, like others, I am against Rollkur. But I am curious also, as to what it is supposed to achieve. Does anyone know? :confused:
 

RuthM

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 June 2012
Messages
347
Location
Nottingham
Visit site
I found this:
Rollkur teaches the horse to lower its head and round its neck as it works. Working "deep" so that the head is pulled inward. As in the picture to the left, in the extreme, the horse's mouth touches the middle of his chest. This hyper flexed state is held for a length of time, through work at the walk, trot, and canter, including shortening and extension of the gaits. Rollkur is not just longitudinal flexion (nose to chest), but also bending to the rider's toe. Most riders accomplish the head position by and fixing the hands in a low position until the horse yields its jaw. This is a response to pressure on the bit.

I discovered an interesting documentation of this method by Dr.Ulrike Thiel which demonstrates the technique through pictures. It is a critical documentation on the Hyper flexion/Rollkur method of riding and training horses. The scenes are taken out of a longer video documentation being published on 3 DVD's which demonstrate the practical use of this method by experienced riders. The short clips include eye opening visuals and very informative explanations of the phases of hyper flexion.

I have also included several links to articles on the subject that I found interesting over the past two years since this debate began. Below is the introduction to the documentation found on youtube. For the entire series please visit http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ulrikethiel
Here: http://everyrider.typepad.com/everyrider/2007/03/the_rollkur_deb.html
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Thanks. I'm still a bit puzzled though as horses can be trained to work deep and to flex and bend quite easily without using hyperflexion. I wonder if in fact, they use it so that when the horse is then worked normally, it is so comfortable and relieved, that it stops any resistance? Not nice though.
 

RuthM

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 June 2012
Messages
347
Location
Nottingham
Visit site
Thanks. I'm still a bit puzzled though as horses can be trained to work deep and to flex and bend quite easily without using hyperflexion. I wonder if in fact, they use it so that when the horse is then worked normally, it is so comfortable and relieved, that it stops any resistance? Not nice though.

Anyone who's ever pee'd after a long wait or removed uncomfortable shoes knows just how powerful a reward removing discomfort is. I'd also say that to some degree it's endemic in horse training (although to a much lesser extent than rollkur). We apply pressure from legs and when the horse responds we relax, we apply pressure through the bit and when the horse responds we relax. Comparison of the way dogs and horses are trained is really interesting too.

I'm not having a go at riding or horse training in general I just think that having eyes wide open is vital to understanding anything. To me, rollkur is abhorant but I can see how it would fit in an extreme area of riding.

Slight derail but I got really interested in positive reinforcement in horse training just before I finished. I dislike clicker training because you need a clicker but like systematically pairing praise and pats with a primary reinforcer such as food or the smell of food. I used it mainly for ground issues such as youngsters not good to groom etc and it worked really well (better using smell of food than food oddly). An ex army horse that'd kick your ruddy head off trying to pick up his feet went from bonkers to my being able to put all four feet between my knees farrier style within 2 hours - and he enjoyed the process! Sorry for the derail, just it sprang to mind.
 

UKa

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 September 2004
Messages
926
Location
Herts
community.webshots.com
Thanks for a bit of an insight! I cannot quite believe how far this is being tolerated in high level sports. Also, what does that mean for the future of riding? Already there is far too much emphasis on what happens to the head in lower level riding. What has happened to the approach that the head will get into the correct position through correct riding? I was brought up to correctly warm up the horse, not pull up the front but use my weight and legs and all that sort of stuff. ALready there are far too many people "pulling" up front this just encourages even more of it. It appears that even high level riders are aiming for the short cut in achieving something that however is against all classical dressage which has always been based on natural principles in the past. Makes my blood boil, as someone said before, how can these riders be out there to be examples to everybody else. Disgusting.
 

cptrayes

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2008
Messages
14,748
Visit site
Wagtail it achieves control. My KWPN was the kind of horse that people would have put in rollkur - huge moving, hugely powerful, hugely opinionated. When younger, he would simply leave an arena, through or over the fence, if he didn't want to be in it. If you are female on a horse of such power and opinion, as most of those top horses are, then putting the horse in hyperflexion prevents it from using its neck to evade your instruction. While it also tips the forehand onto the floor, it does unlock the back and you can feel the whole thing swing behind you.

I occasionally got it by accident for very short periods when I would otherwise have been carted wherever my boy wanted to go. He even used to stand on his back feet and try to smash his way out through the concrete wall of a barn I ride in, so it was at times a matter of self preservation to temporarily pull him into hyperflexion.

I think Anky started it big time with Bonfire, who was a huge explosive powerhouse KWPN. I suspect originally it was just a way of controlling him, and then she realised that it was a short-cut to GP movements in a shorter training time and it became her normal way of training.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong about that.

Disconcertingly, the use of very short side reins for lunging young horses is enshrined in the German national training manual :(
 
Last edited:

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
This is all very interesting. Thank you. You never stop learning. Personally, most of my experience is with TBs and smaller warmbloods. I have never had the need to use extreme tactics and therefore could not for the life of me see what they could possibly achieve. Though I can appreciate that hyperflexion could legitimately be used in a dangerous situation, as a last resort, my view is that if you have a horse that is liable to tank off with you and which you cannot control through normal means, then you are over-horsed. Leave the great big warmbloods to the men. :)
 

tallyho!

Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Joined
8 July 2010
Messages
14,952
Visit site
Quite... I was once told I was too big for a 15hh horse. Hence why I looked for bigger horses. Then, I decided I was over horsed and looked into why my trainer made me feel that way... I was tall and fairly big and unbalanced which makes it hard for a small horse to sort himself underneath me. A bigger horse could perhaps carry me better? I got better over the years but not perfect.

I will not ride big horses now. I am 5'6 and 11 stone... I am more balanced as a rider now so feel comfortable on smaller horses.

I still feel inadequate at dressage comps as everyone seems tiny and seem to be on massive horses and here's me on my 15'2....

Having said that, the men are just as guilty.
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
22,875
Visit site
This is all very interesting. Thank you. You never stop learning. Personally, most of my experience is with TBs and smaller warmbloods. I have never had the need to use extreme tactics and therefore could not for the life of me see what they could possibly achieve. Though I can appreciate that hyperflexion could legitimately be used in a dangerous situation, as a last resort, my view is that if you have a horse that is liable to tank off with you and which you cannot control through normal means, then you are over-horsed. Leave the great big warmbloods to the men. :)

Thats probably a very naive view! Men and women can abuse RK, and it doesn't always mean they are overhorsed.

It is such a complex situation that has evolved over the RK that will take a long time to subside I fear. The problem is that very brief and well timed/thought out/executed hyperflexion does help release the back. All it is is an extreme stretch, which most athletes will incorporate into their training. But they need to be physically fit enough, warmed up sufficiently and know the precise time when they need to release the stretch .... the problem is in horses, hyperflexion is used too much and too early in a horses training, it's mostly used for the wrong reason, it's copied incorrectly and the poor damn horse has no real choice in when the hyperflexion needs to be released.

It has evolved from being a useful LDR exercise used in the right hands for the right reasons into an extended period of an unnatural forced position resulting in an incorrect way of going (that has historically been rewarded via judges - don't get me started on that!!) and a short cut to getting a horse up the levels or sold for more money. Very sad IMO.

Unfortunately any sport where money is involved will result in moral/ethical issues and this is one that our sport faces. It will take some brave individuals from FEI, governing bodies, judging panels to really stop giving out marks for horses that go so stereotypically RK. Once correctly trained horses are more consistently rewarded the RK culture will start to change.

IMO it's no different to the obese show horse culture we face here in our country
 

Jenni_

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 July 2010
Messages
5,259
Location
edinburgh
www.facebook.com
Well if there's one thing that will help shut down the use of Rollkur - it was the blinding performance of Team GB a few weeks ago. All 3 displayes tests full of self carriage, lightness, and their horses genuinely accepting the bit and working up and forward.

Charlotte managed to win with a few errors against Adelinde Crankyerheadin's foot pefect but tension riddled test.

And don't get me started on Yanky van Gruesome....
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Thats probably a very naive view! Men and women can abuse RK, and it doesn't always mean they are overhorsed.

It is such a complex situation that has evolved over the RK that will take a long time to subside I fear. The problem is that very brief and well timed/thought out/executed hyperflexion does help release the back. All it is is an extreme stretch, which most athletes will incorporate into their training. But they need to be physically fit enough, warmed up sufficiently and know the precise time when they need to release the stretch .... the problem is in horses, hyperflexion is used too much and too early in a horses training, it's mostly used for the wrong reason, it's copied incorrectly and the poor damn horse has no real choice in when the hyperflexion needs to be released.

It has evolved from being a useful LDR exercise used in the right hands for the right reasons into an extended period of an unnatural forced position resulting in an incorrect way of going (that has historically been rewarded via judges - don't get me started on that!!) and a short cut to getting a horse up the levels or sold for more money. Very sad IMO.

Unfortunately any sport where money is involved will result in moral/ethical issues and this is one that our sport faces. It will take some brave individuals from FEI, governing bodies, judging panels to really stop giving out marks for horses that go so stereotypically RK. Once correctly trained horses are more consistently rewarded the RK culture will start to change.

IMO it's no different to the obese show horse culture we face here in our country

I'm afraid I don't see any circumstance where RK can be correctly used. Proper stretching should not involve pulling the horse's head to it's chest so that it cannot swallow. What ever happened to working a horse long and low over it's back? Then picking it up once the back is lifted?
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Well if there's one thing that will help shut down the use of Rollkur - it was the blinding performance of Team GB a few weeks ago. All 3 displayes tests full of self carriage, lightness, and their horses genuinely accepting the bit and working up and forward.

Charlotte managed to win with a few errors against Adelinde Crankyerheadin's foot pefect but tension riddled test.

And don't get me started on Yanky van Gruesome....

Good point.
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
22,875
Visit site
Well if there's one thing that will help shut down the use of Rollkur - it was the blinding performance of Team GB a few weeks ago. All 3 displayes tests full of self carriage, lightness, and their horses genuinely accepting the bit and working up and forward.

Charlotte managed to win with a few errors against Adelinde Crankyerheadin's foot pefect but tension riddled test.

And don't get me started on Yanky van Gruesome....

It's a good start!!! Especisally as Alf is as strong as an Ox and ridden by a girl.

That said it would have been better if silver hadn't been scored so highly!! Mustn't complain though, as it's a step in the right direction, and we just need to keep chipping away
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
22,875
Visit site
I'm afraid I don't see any circumstance where RK can be correctly used. Proper stretching should not involve pulling the horse's head to it's chest so that it cannot swallow. What ever happened to working a horse long and low over it's back? Then picking it up once the back is lifted?

Well I suppose you have to understand a subtle difference between a maintained hyperflexion (rollkur) and a LDR (not the same as L&L) and where does line line of reasonable stretch for training an athlete and horse abuse come in.

You might think I sound like I endorse hyperflexion, I don't (!) but I can tolerate brief periods of LDR. Unfortunately my definition of brief would be very different to the FEI!
 

maggiesmum

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 April 2008
Messages
1,171
Location
Shropshire
Visit site
I believe that working a horse in hypereflexion also isolate and works a specific shoulder muscle which creates that high kicking can-can girl showy front leg action which seems to be so admired.
 

tallyho!

Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Joined
8 July 2010
Messages
14,952
Visit site
I believe that working a horse in hypereflexion also isolate and works a specific shoulder muscle which creates that high kicking can-can girl showy front leg action which seems to be so admired.

Does it? I though Valegro and that spanish horse did pretty well without hyperflexion... I could be wrong of course.
 

cptrayes

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2008
Messages
14,748
Visit site
It has evolved from being a useful LDR exercise used in the right hands

Hyperflexion isn't LDR, though. I don't agree that it's right ever to deliberately use hyperflexion, with the horse's parotid glands squeezing out of the sides of its face. When it happened to mine it was momentary and unintended on my part.

Long deep and round is completely different, the horse has clear air between the base of his head and his neck. LDR is all stretch, hyperflexion is mostly compression and the stretch of the crest of the neck immediately behind the poll which it requires is unnatural and looks extreme.

As far as I am concerned the two bear no relationship to each other.
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
22,875
Visit site
Hyperflexion isn't LDR, though. I don't agree that it's right ever to deliberately use hyperflexion, with the horse's parotid glands squeezing out of the sides of its face. When it happened to mine it was momentary and unintended on my part.

Long deep and round is completely different, the horse has clear air between the base of his head and his neck. LDR is all stretch, hyperflexion is mostly compression and the stretch of the crest of the neck immediately behind the poll which it requires is unnatural and looks extreme.

As far as I am concerned the two bear no relationship to each other.

Of course they are different, hence the word 'evolved', however I would argue they do bear relationship. FEI blind eyes often mean there is a grey area, funny how my/your view of Rollkur (i.e. a forced and extended period of hyperflexion) is excused by them as LDR, no?
RK is esentially just a more extreme form of LDR. The former being horse abuse, the latter having some benefit if used in the right situation with the right hands.

I'm just playing devil's advocate really and trying to answer the OP.
 

AntxGeorgiax

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2012
Messages
348
Visit site
Hyperflexion isn't LDR, though. I don't agree that it's right ever to deliberately use hyperflexion, with the horse's parotid glands squeezing out of the sides of its face. When it happened to mine it was momentary and unintended on my part.

Long deep and round is completely different, the horse has clear air between the base of his head and his neck. LDR is all stretch, hyperflexion is mostly compression and the stretch of the crest of the neck immediately behind the poll which it requires is unnatural and looks extreme.

As far as I am concerned the two bear no relationship to each other.

Can I just ask what LD and LDR means? I'm not really up to date with abbreviations on here :)
 

cptrayes

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2008
Messages
14,748
Visit site
Sorry, Low Deep and Round. The horse carries its head very low, with the nose somewhere around about the knees. It's overbent, but the entire top line is stretched and it is not physically stressful as a positioning. It does place the horse on the forehand, but it also relaxes them and really frees up the back if it's done properly with forward intention.
 
Last edited:

cptrayes

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2008
Messages
14,748
Visit site
RK is esentially just a more extreme form of LDR. .

I disagree with you. The two are completely different. In hyperflexion the horse's head is at a normal working height and the top third of the neck is hyperflexed so that the bottom jaw is lying touching or very, very close to the underside of the neck.

In LDR, the whole of the top of the neck is arched and the head is way, way lower than any normal positioning. It would not be physically possible for the horse to have such an elongated topline on the neck and touch the underside of its neck with its bottom jaw.

This is hyperflexion

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/i...hSIT9l7bUqgvRZNRi2rDdbuch7kURhIRQbT69UeB-wHA7

I can't find a picture for LDR at the moment but there is a drawing in the German dressage manual and it bears no relationship to hyperflexion. I think the problem is that to get around the criticism, Anky started calling what she was doing LDR, when it isn't (if you go by the drawing in the German dresage manual) and the two have become confused.

There are people who think both are wrong because the horse is overbent in both, but I find LDR useful for relaxing and stretching a horse who has worked hard in an up outline, and that many horses will happily choose to do it if given the reins.


Low deep and round in the German manual looks like this but with the horse behind the verticle:

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/i...9DqTc1mVnfDYHE9cPKnwn0yDV4VBWdxpHGZ4c1ASdgjVg
 
Last edited:

cptrayes

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2008
Messages
14,748
Visit site
RK is esentially just a more extreme form of LDR. The former being horse abuse, the latter having some benefit if used in the right situation with the right hands.

I'm just playing devil's advocate really and trying to answer the OP.

I agree with you completely that the FEI are muddying the waters by excusing hyperflexion as LDR so they don't have to enforce their own rules. I was intrigued when I came across the German national training manual diagram a couple of weeks ago and realised how different it's supposed to be.
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Thank you so much all who have shed light on this issue. I use LDR myself but still have yet to find a beneficial reason for performing RK. After reading up on it and all your responses, I can only conclude that the real 'benefit' is the removal of negative reinforcement, but a far more sinister one than removing pressure from the legs or hand.
 

Booboos

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 January 2008
Messages
12,776
Location
South of France
Visit site
These are the FEI definitions of the positions:
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2010/05/081.shtml

The one above from the German manual corresponds to long and low not long, deep and round, although the entire issue is deeply confusing.

The German Nicole Uphoff with four times gold Olympic medal winning Rembrandt was the first person to publicly use rollkur. Her trainer is also used to be Isabell Werth's trainer.

Why? Because for some horses, with some riders, it produces spectacular results as a training method. Like all training methods it can be abused in the wrong hands and it is not guarranteed to work with everyone.
 

cptrayes

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2008
Messages
14,748
Visit site
Well if hyperflexion really is also called "long (low?) deep and round" then that's completely daft, because hyperflexion is not long, it's contracted, and not deep, it's just crunched up in the middle. My understanding of long and low is that the head should be in front of the verticle. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in calling long and low and behind the verticle "long(low?) deep and round".

I'm not convinced that hyperflexion produces spectacular results. I think it's used to control spectacular horses who might well have produced even better results if they had been trained in a more humane fashion. Or might just have remained uncontrollable. I can't see that it's possible to take an ordinary horse and make it spectacular with hyperflexion. It might take longer without hyperflexion, but maybe if fewer people used it the average working life of an insured German dressage horse would be more than 5.5 years* :(

All IMHO of course :)




*statistic from Phillipe Karl from 1978, widely believed to be at least as bad if not worse these days.
 
Last edited:
Top