rollkur !!!

nixxyz

nixxyz

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well im bored stiff so was looking through some vids on you tube and came across this

http://youtu.be/xUUeRFZt8ec
(im not actually sure its anky riding but its awful all the same)
now im no expert, nor claim to know a lot about dressage but surely this cant be good for the horse??!! it looks cumbersome (sp) and downright uncomfy. i actually got a bit upset watching the vid and had to find something that was true dressage. hence totilas .... ( in my opinion)

http://youtu.be/Eet-Vbg-YJ4
 
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Yes, I've seen this before - there is a really good trainer I follow on youtube called Bonvuaz who trains in such a sympathetic way. I prefer the dressage mule to Manky Anky van Grunsven's Rollkur oberkil!
 
nixxyz said:
i guess there isnt anything we can do except try and educate but there will always be the minority who think its ok :(
and that is one amazing test :D
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I know...but we can rest easy knowing that we dont :D I think its horrible, and if i ever see a horse going like that i always get the feeling of "that rider has NO clue"

And yeah amazing test isnt it, so sad she was PTS would have an absolute star (well she was already but ever more so) and given the world amazing babies
 
There has been a lot of threads on rollkur on here in the past. I think most people agree that it is the unacceptable face of modern dressage and completely underminds the sport.

This book is a must for anyone interested in the sport.

Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage: A Search for a Classical Alternative, it's by Philippe Karl.

He is for the first time teaching in the UK this year and I think auditions to get on the course are still being held.
 
This is the my favourite test:

[youtube]tKbqokuTzh8[/youtube]

I hate rolkur and all that jazz it's un-natural and horrible, if you need to do it to get your horse to go nicely then I think your in the wrong profession.
 
nixxyz said:
well im bored stiff so was looking through some vids on you tube and came across this

http://youtu.be/xUUeRFZt8ec
(im not actually sure its anky riding but its awful all the same)
now im no expert, nor claim to know a lot about dressage but surely this cant be good for the horse??!! it looks cumbersome (sp) and downright uncomfy. i actually got a bit upset watching the vid and had to find something that was true dressage. hence totilas .... ( in my opinion)

http://youtu.be/Eet-Vbg-YJ4
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Nixxyz I think I am right in saying that Edward Gal also uses rollkur and that Totilas will have been trained this way too. They do it because the horses win if they do. My friend is training with a £90 a lesson international trainer bases in this country and he/she has taught her to start every lesson with her mare lunging in side reins so short that they put her in rollkur. The only way to see which riders don't use it is to be at their place as a fly on the wall, although I think we can believe the ones who openly decry it too.
 
BobbyMondeo said:
I agree that its not nice...but what can we do...really?

And this is true dressage (IMO) and probably the best test ive ever seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw
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Just goes to show how different we all are, doesn't it? I don't like that test much at all - the rider has his reins very, very tight and the horse is showing tension by thrashing its tail the entire time. To me, it's not a pretty picture. Totilas is a very pretty picture, but his movement is flawed and some of his marks are completely unjustified on a technical level (extended trot, for example, where the front and hind legs should cover equal ground and he is a looooong way off that). Something between those two, for me :)
 
could only watch the hamfisted, heavy driving zrsed git for ten seconds, so ugly.

this is why i am driven to say on other posts, why i am not in awe of top riders, some are good, but to me that is awful.
 
Kokopelli said:
I hate rolkur and all that jazz it's un-natural and horrible, if you need to do it to get your horse to go nicely then I think your in the wrong profession.
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I like how relaxed and like a "real" horse this one is, but compared with today, if that was Olympic standard in 1984, it would not get placed, would it? Check the piaffe at around the 6 minute mark for Klimke wriggling and squirming and spurring to try to get the movement for a pretty unnattractive bit of riding. And overall, compared to today's horses and riders, the horse often has his nose noticeably in front of the verticle, lacks power in the slower movements and I think his transitions are decidedly woolly almost all the time. Anyone else got a nomination for their favourite test, this is interesting?
 
cptrayes said:
Nixxyz I think I am right in saying that Edward Gal also uses rollkur and that Totilas will have been trained this way too. They do it because the horses win if they do. My friend is training with a £90 a lesson international trainer bases in this country and he/she has taught her to start every lesson with her mare lunging in side reins so short that they put her in rollkur. The only way to see which riders don't use it is to be at their place as a fly on the wall, although I think we can believe the ones who openly decry it too.
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Edward Gal certainly does... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAOab26FYQ Horrible viewing :(
 
cptrayes said:
I like how relaxed and like a "real" horse this one is, but compared with today, if that was Olympic standard in 1984, it would not get placed, would it? Check the piaffe at around the 6 minute mark for Klimke wriggling and squirming and spurring to try to get the movement for a pretty unnattractive bit of riding. And overall, compared to today's horses and riders, the horse often has his nose noticeably in front of the verticle, lacks power in the slower movements and I think his transitions are decidedly woolly almost all the time. Anyone else got a nomination for their favourite test, this is interesting?
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Totally agree with you by todays standard he wouldn't do very well at all but I just find that test a pleasure to watch whereas I find the 'modern' GP dressage painful sometimes. Obviously there are some fabulous riders and horses at that level but the majority I think look uncomfortable.
However, I'm no expert and by no means have ever competed at that level so it's easy being an armchair critic, but I can tell when a horse isn't happy.
 
I suppose just like the top level of ANY discipline everyone is out to find the method that gives them results, and if hyperflexion/rollkur is it then of course there going to do it. We can all see the majority of those horses look tense, un-comfortable and over all the picture is not very nice at all.

At the end of the day, if rollkur suddenly stopped giving them the desired result, there would be something else equally as bad to replace it. Of course this doesn't make it right and i actually very much dis-like watching most high level dressage due to the obvious dis-comfort and tension in the horses.

However i was watching some dressage on horse and country the other week and some partnerships look truely amazing, but they never seem to be the ones at the top of the leaderboard...
 
Girlracer said:
I suppose just like the top level of ANY discipline everyone is out to find the method that gives them results, and if hyperflexion/rollkur is it then of course there going to do it. We can all see the majority of those horses look tense, un-comfortable and over all the picture is not very nice at all.

At the end of the day, if rollkur suddenly stopped giving them the desired result, there would be something else equally as bad to replace it. Of course this doesn't make it right and i actually very much dis-like watching most high level dressage due to the obvious dis-comfort and tension in the horses.

However i was watching some dressage on horse and country the other week and some partnerships look truely amazing, but they never seem to be the ones at the top of the leaderboard...
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This is why i dont like competition at high level. People who have money or ego at stake, are quite likely to use methods that are not in the horse's best interests. They want results, and they dont seem to care how its done, as long as its done. To me, its the same as using draw reins, bungies, strong bits, etc, and to force the horse into a shape, or having better brakes, instead of allowing it time to learn it. Sorry rant over.
 
Kokopelli said:
Totally agree with you by todays standard he wouldn't do very well at all but I just find that test a pleasure to watch whereas I find the 'modern' GP dressage painful sometimes. Obviously there are some fabulous riders and horses at that level but the majority I think look uncomfortable.
However, I'm no expert and by no means have ever competed at that level so it's easy being an armchair critic, but I can tell when a horse isn't happy.
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I completely agree. I wish dressage was still like that, where the horse looks like he could enjoy a nice hack or pop a couple of hedges the next day. Today's dressage looks very artificial to me :(
 
nixxyz said:
i didnt realise edward did, im shocked and stand corrected :( poor horse
koko i love the vid of the test you posted im really not a fan on soo many horses being overbent
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It's a practise I would typically link with Dutch riders (not to say they all train using rolkur) But Yes Edward Gal, Andreas Helgstrand and Anky have all been linked or accused of practising rolkur!

I do really like the Blue Hors Matine WEG with Andreas Helgstrand, but I have other problems with him other than rolkur!
 
nuno oliveira, when i see that man ride i would'nt say i see stars, for me the whole universe stops and i know i am seeing the master of all time.

his insight is based on understanding the horse and how it moves and relates to the rider, i have never seen horses move in that way under any other rider, and he was always stressed the need to treat the horses mouth with gentleness

over 2400 years ago zenophon said, 'nothing that is forced can ever be beautiful'

captain beudant wrote, it is only by allowing horses to move on a free rein, and not holding them in, that success a be obtained. riders who hold in their horses are insignificant riders and will never advance.
riders who give their horses freedom are those who will taste the delicacies of equestrian art.

in training a dressage horse it is a fundamental humane law that after working in an outline for a FEW minutes that the horse should be allowed to chew the bit and take the contact down and forward therefore stretching the muscles it was using in the oppposite direction and to allow the blood flow to re-establish.
 
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