rounder and deeper?

diggerbez

diggerbez

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i think my horse needs to work a bit rounder and deeper... has been mentioned a few times from people commenting on videos on here and also by someone i have lessons with- he has a naturally correct outline but often uses this to avoid working properly- and also finds it easy to spook as a result...when he is deeper and rounder he works much more attentively and stops pratting about.
however....sometimes i find it hard to get him to go deeper...in fact sometimes he won't flex at all in the neck/poll. obviously don't want to be hauling his head about but if he's got his neck locked what do i do to encourage him to soften??
 
move it laterally.

flex him quite firmly to the inside and leg yield him steeply to meet your outside rein, when he softens the neck keep your hand slow and a little wider than normal (but not fixed backwards) and guide the neck down whilst allowing him to stretch over his top line and straighten up.once he is reaching down and round keep a light contact in both hands and push him forward to meet it to bring the nose in.

eventually you only have to *breathe* with your fingers to soften the jaw and lower the neck.

make sure you allow him to reach down and round and then push him together to make him deeper and rounder still, dont just pull pull pull the nose back because then the neck muscles wont relax in to the deeper frame.
 
what bit do you have on him.. i put a sweet iron or a happy mouth and my boy was down like a brick!! (well not quite.. that would be a bit heavy!!)
 
thanks PS that makes sense... he sometimes has tantrums so it throws me off what i'm doing but i will have a play tomorrow.... i can do it in lessons but lose my way when i'm on my own :p

WW- a nueue schule loose ring with french link. he really likes it and mouths a lot...i think its all because he finds it easier to trug along and not work properly...
 
If you are riding the horse back-to-front and he is indeed correctly engaging then he should shape nicely into your contact. Don't be tempted to fiddle fuss, giggle, pulse etc and certainly don't attempt to hold or pull the poll down. There is way too much emphasis on placing the poll and a *round* frame and often not enough thought goes into what's happening in the back seat. Get him moving forward, engaged, straight, correct and he will shape himself.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
move it laterally.

flex him quite firmly to the inside and leg yield him steeply to meet your outside rein, when he softens the neck keep your hand slow and a little wider than normal (but not fixed backwards) and guide the neck down whilst allowing him to stretch over his top line and straighten up.once he is reaching down and round keep a light contact in both hands and push him forward to meet it to bring the nose in.

eventually you only have to *breathe* with your fingers to soften the jaw and lower the neck.

make sure you allow him to reach down and round and then push him together to make him deeper and rounder still, dont just pull pull pull the nose back because then the neck muscles wont relax in to the deeper frame.
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I agree with this in part, but think more along the lines of what Ella Bella said above.
I agree that asking him to move laterally will help but I personally would not flex him to the inside (firmly or otherwise) as doing so will only serve to block the inside hind leg. Although you will achieve more 'weight' in the outside rein it will not be correct as he will be falling on to it and basically using it as a crutch - which really you want to avoid if at all possible!!
I also am not a particular fan of pulling the hands wide apart to 'guide the neck down' as all you are doing is using the bit on the bars of the mouth - so in essence it will serve to achieve the objective of 'bringing head/neck deeper' but forfeiting the correctness and therefore hindleg.
You don't want to place the neck anywhere then ride forwards that is the wrong way round. Ride forwards first onto the end of the reins then achieve a deeper outline, you should be aiming for the neck forward and out initially and once this is achieved forward and down. Once this is truly achieved you can become rounder within it by improving the suppleness - the horses carrying capacity UP and AROUND the leg not falling against it. It can sometimes feel nicer (safer!!!) round and deep particularly if your horse is prone to being tense, spooky or sharp (like mine!!!) but once he is truly moving forward, through to the contact you should teach him to soften to the leg not the rein aids. When he is stiffening the neck it is generally a reflection of what is going on in the body. Get the body supple first keeping the neck straight - using your hands as a pair! That said you must be able to flex the horse (a little! bit), and he must yield to the rein aids - treat this as you would your leg aids, ask very quietly, if he does not respond tell him quite strongly but you must be very quick to release and never attempt to hold him in the flexion. As your horse stiffens up on you I would only check these responses on the straight, if he responds well don't keep doing it, just knowing that you can is enough, the rest must come round the leg.
**Assuming that pony is forward** feel as though you can to continuous serpintines/loops/changes of bend and direction etc up and down the school solely from the use of your leg and seat aids (conscious of any falling about) whilst maintaining that forward pace keeping your hands forward - away and independent to your body - and together (almost touching).
There are many roads to Rome - good luck!!
 
SAMgirl said:
I agree with this in part, but think more along the lines of what Ella Bella said above.
I agree that asking him to move laterally will help but I personally would not flex him to the inside (firmly or otherwise) as doing so will only serve to block the inside hind leg. Although you will achieve more 'weight' in the outside rein it will not be correct as he will be falling on to it and basically using it as a crutch - which really you want to avoid if at all possible!!
I also am not a particular fan of pulling the hands wide apart to 'guide the neck down' as all you are doing is using the bit on the bars of the mouth - so in essence it will serve to achieve the objective of 'bringing head/neck deeper' but forfeiting the correctness and therefore hindleg.
You don't want to place the neck anywhere then ride forwards that is the wrong way round. Ride forwards first onto the end of the reins then achieve a deeper outline, you should be aiming for the neck forward and out initially and once this is achieved forward and down. Once this is truly achieved you can become rounder within it by improving the suppleness - the horses carrying capacity UP and AROUND the leg not falling against it. It can sometimes feel nicer (safer!!!) round and deep particularly if your horse is prone to being tense, spooky or sharp (like mine!!!) but once he is truly moving forward, through to the contact you should teach him to soften to the leg not the rein aids. When he is stiffening the neck it is generally a reflection of what is going on in the body. Get the body supple first keeping the neck straight - using your hands as a pair! That said you must be able to flex the horse (a little! bit), and he must yield to the rein aids - treat this as you would your leg aids, ask very quietly, if he does not respond tell him quite strongly but you must be very quick to release and never attempt to hold him in the flexion. As your horse stiffens up on you I would only check these responses on the straight, if he responds well don't keep doing it, just knowing that you can is enough, the rest must come round the leg.
**Assuming that pony is forward** feel as though you can to continuous serpintines/loops/changes of bend and direction etc up and down the school solely from the use of your leg and seat aids (conscious of any falling about) whilst maintaining that forward pace keeping your hands forward - away and independent to your body - and together (almost touching).
There are many roads to Rome - good luck!!
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This, completely :)
 
perhaps im comming at this from the POV that when i teach, if people dont *know*the feeling they want from working deeper, its very hard to get them to ride forward to the hand and allow the neck lower and rounder without either creating a battle or horse falling on forehand.
IME its easy to get the horse to offer a stretch by pushing him sideways a few steps, so he learns to be submissive to the hand, and once stretching THEN round him up (in essence exactly what SG said) by riding forward to that stretch.
most horses i see fight/resist by tensing the neck and comming crooked, so the flexion and the leg yield prevent that.
i also know that the OP's horse can be a bit of a monkey, so am talking based on previous knowledge/convo with the OP.

i think we are all saying the same-ish thing :)
 
Agree with SAMgirl. It's worth doing things the correct way and not fiddling the front end, or you just end up with the horse on it's forehand, BTV, behind the contact etc. If you can't get the feeling of riding the back end into the contact then it's better to get someone to ride and set the horse up for you initially, as it's so important (doesn't matter if you're working in a competion outline, long and low etc the principle is the same and the feeling on the reins should be the same)
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
perhaps im comming at this from the POV that when i teach, if people dont *know*the feeling they want from working deeper, its very hard to get them to ride forward to the hand and allow the neck lower and rounder without either creating a battle or horse falling on forehand.
:)
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Yes agree! It's very difficult to teach feel. I do find however that's it's easier to pick up when they are taught to be forward and correct AND straight before I even attempt to have them shape the horse. Once they have a nice even contact and quiet hands and are riding from the leg, seat and body they can learn that feeling the moment the horse drops his poll and is coming through. This also teaches natural timing, exactly when to give. Often the lateral flexing approach confuses things and can give the horse an escape route (like SAMgirl mentioned). That's just what I've found anyway......
 
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thanks for all the help people...i do try to ride him forwards to the hand- the problem that i have is that he then bazzes off and completely ignores me sometimes.... i try to get him listening with lots of transitions and transitions within the pace and this seems to work- so is it more a case of keep plugging away with getting him forwards and straight but not running off first of all? :confused:
 
To get them working round and deep I direct the contact by taking the hands a little wider and keeping the contact consistent and elastic, and allow the horse out in front more and get them to stretch out from the wither, whilst they are still active behind- sometimes it's easier to start this in a slower speed of trot as gives you more time. The hands always are there to allow forwards, not to keep them round, it is the seat and leg that keeps them round in their frame, they have to lift their ribcage- i find it helpful to imagine the poll being the same height as the wither and imagining a nice bowl of feed or carrots under their nose that they want to eat, and they must stretch to get it! - both hands give when the horse is soft and elastic and inside leg to outside connection. It is also helpful to start on a circle to whilst the horse is getting used to the idea as you can get some bend through their body. If he is running off it may be the seat (weight) aid he needs to respond to.
 
SAMgirl hit all the high points but as to "feel" - as he stretches you want the feeling of the withers/shoulder blades coming UP (so the top line gets more buoyant and rounder but longer, rather than the front end falling down and getting rounder towards the ground if that makes sense) and the feeling that the "points" of the scapulas (not really but we're talking feel here) come further apart to let the energy created by the hind leg come through the body as the hock steps under. So in effect the horse gets out of his own way by having a softer back. (It's helpful to the imagery to remember that horses don't have collarbones.:)) Any "pushing down" along the top line and it's not working.

When you mentioned that the horse p****es off when you ride him forwards sometimes . . . I think you need to take that up with your instructor. I know exactly what you're talking about and can sympathise but it's an essential element that you're able to control the flow and the push of the hind leg with your driving aid eventually. I find with a fizzy/powerful horse it's easy to get into the habit of just letting them "wind up" and then stopping them with the rein - rather like putting a brick on the accelerator of a car and then regulating the speed with the hand brake.

You need to start in the walk, making him take softer, more precise steps behind, so he can soften into your hand on a very long rein. Then move it up to a controlled trot etc. If you rush him out of his rhythm in an attempt to "tip" him on to his front end you will actually get something that looks sort of right but is creating more problems for you in the long run.

This is an almost impossible thing to explain. It isn't a trick and there's no magic exercise which will guarantee success. It really is about CALM FORWARD STRAIGHT.

Personally, I learned it from my trainer sitting on my horse, making it soft, plunking me back on, I'd ride until I ruined it, then try to get it back, and if I couldn't we'd start over. ;) It's very tricky to teach because there are so many ways to be *almost* right but they're really not.
 
...i do try to ride him forwards to the hand- the problem that i have is that he then bazzes off and completely ignores me sometimes.... i try to get him listening with lots of transitions and transitions within the pace and this seems to work- so is it more a case of keep plugging away with getting him forwards and straight but not running off first of all?

I'm no dressage guru but you need to be able to differentiate (as far as your horse is concerned) between a driving leg and a holding leg, so that you are then able to contain/hold the impulsion you have created by your seat and leg and not your hand alone.

I'm trying to think about how to explain this - I guess I just 'do' it....maybe someone else can pick this up???
 
yes TS that makes perfect sense. my old trainer used to have me whanging around at 500 miles an hour sometimes wheras new trainer has me working much slower (she says to think about walk pace when trotting) and then asking him to go forward from that and then back to super slow trot... she said the same...that the very forwards forwards trot was just pushing him out of his natural rhythm and so yes he was going lower but not working over his back properly... i just get so frustrated because when he does work well its amazing but sometimes he just spends so long leaping around and spooking at things and generally being silly that i don't know what to do for the best and lose confidence in what i am trying to do. obviously this doesn't happen in lessons because a) he doesn't mess about and b) i have someone telling me what to do!
am going up to ride in a bit...will have a practice with slow and long and see how i get on :)
 
^I see what your saying. I just find it easier to teach from an energetic rythmic tempo. Far easier to package and regulate existing energy with (well timed half halts from the seat and upper body) than to try and manufacture it.
 
Erm, I don't think I said "slow", I think I said "soft" and "precise". ;)

The horse has to be pushing to work over his back, otherwise he's just puttering around with his head down. It's a matter of balance and every horse will have a rhythm in which he/she feels most comfortable - too fast is not better/worse than too slow. When the horse is a bit more confident you can start to play with the rhythm, length of stride etc. but you have to have him soft and stretching before you can reap the benefits of this work.

I would also say, contrary to what everyone else seems to be saying, my experience is the horse coming "through" is a function of straightness - if I can get the horse very, very straight then the push comes through, I can receive it in the hand and voila! Until the horse goes off straight again, anyway. ;) I think of it like tumblers in a lock - if all the gateways "line up" then the energy just flows through the horse without resistance so rather than trying to "poke" various bits of the horse to make it straight, the energy/impulsion sort of "stretches" the horse into straightness.

Which all sounds a bit airy fairy but is totally not. The longer I live and the more I ride, I realise that really everyone is (theoretically at least) looking for the same thing - a calm, forward, straight horse - they're just using different language to get there. And it's available (again, theoretically) to every horse and rider.

But I digress . . .;)

The problem with riding a spooky/sharp one is timing. You have to "get him" the second he tightens his jaw or rolls his eye, not when he's already raising his head. It's a conversation with a hyper child - "Ooh, look at that!" "No, back to work now." "But, LOOK at THAT!" "No, back to work now" "But. . . " "No, listen to me." "Ah . . " "No, come over here." etc etc. You have to get him back on the straight and narrow before he's off the rails. Riding the horse deeper has psychological and physiological reasons for working but if you get in a fight about it, that's defeating the purpose. Calm, rhythm, attention to detail. :)
 
TarrSteps said:
When you mentioned that the horse p****es off when you ride him forwards sometimes . . . I think you need to take that up with your instructor. I know exactly what you're talking about and can sympathise but it's an essential element that you're able to control the flow and the push of the hind leg with your driving aid eventually. I find with a fizzy/powerful horse it's easy to get into the habit of just letting them "wind up" and then stopping them with the rein - rather like putting a brick on the accelerator of a car and then regulating the speed with the hand brake.

You need to start in the walk, making him take softer, more precise steps behind, so he can soften into your hand on a very long rein. Then move it up to a controlled trot etc. If you rush him out of his rhythm in an attempt to "tip" him on to his front end you will actually get something that looks sort of right but is creating more problems for you in the long run.

This is an almost impossible thing to explain. It isn't a trick and there's no magic exercise which will guarantee success. It really is about CALM FORWARD STRAIGHT.
.
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So true. Starting in walk and look to be able to hold him straight with your legs wherever you go, away from the track, small circles, changing rein, figure 8s, etc. Focus on the hind steps rather than the outline and as your legs start to influence the hind legs, the contact and outline will start to sort itself out. An open inside rein is acceptable but the outside rein needs to stay close to the neck or else the outside shoulder escapes. Also if the outside rein comes away from the neck the arm loses its elasticity and forward feel. The horse will start to take the contact forward and down from behind so then the trot is easier - rhythm and balance being key so the horse doesn't run faster encouraging you to hold/pull back. If done correctly this works on all types and temperaments and it helps the tense and tricky ones. I have used it with great success with hotheads that don't want to walk.
Years ago I saw a demo by Klaus Balkenhol. He got on a couple of the horses that were short, tight and high in the neck or had been ridden in a form of rollkur. He just walked about talking to the audience, sometimes reins in one hand, appearring to be chatting rather than riding. In time the horses were on the bit, good in the neck, engaged and on the aids. He then did some trot and canter with the horses unrecognisable from the ones that came in with their regular riders (reasonably successful competitors). Amazing to watch and it left a lasting impression on me that the outline comes from the hind legs which are influenced by the legs and the hand receives what the leg creates. Obviously feeling how much to create and receive is vital as is keeping the shoulders infront of the hind legs so the power connects through.
 
oldvic said:
He just walked about talking to the audience, sometimes reins in one hand, appearring to be chatting rather than riding. In time the horses were on the bit, good in the neck, engaged and on the aids.
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THIS is such a major deal, but one that often gets pushed to the side by the push to "get things done" and "make the most of our time". You just walk until it's "right", however long it takes, to and fro, talking quietly to the horse until lets go and settles or animates or whatever you need. It works. Really. And less stress on all concerned. If you do it for a bit eventually (and surprisingly quickly) the horse gets into the "habit" of relaxing as soon as you get on. It really does make the most amazing difference.

It can mean if you're pressed for time there might be days when you mostly (even only) walk, perhaps with only a few minutes in trot/canter but it's time well spent in the long run. I know it's boring, I know your friends will wonder what the heck you're up to, but if it's good enough for Balkenhol . . . ;)

I will say it's not really "doable" at least at first, on a hack. You need the horse to be able to focus on you and totally relax, not worry about what's going on around him, where he has to put his feet etc. Hacking is great for other things, just not for this sort of work.

The German trainer who taught me the most about this subject was a confirmed cigar smoker and he counted this as a factor in his success as a horse trainer. He always had something to "do" when he was walking his horses.;) So he didn't rush, he just enjoyed his smoke until the horses relaxed and softened, then he'd balance his cigar on a jump standard (gross :rolleyes:), work a bit, then pick the cigar up and walk a bit more. It was also great for teaching horses to stand still, as he was plenty happy to stand there with his cigar until they stopped wanting to go anywhere. ;)
 
an update.... spent AGES in walk tonight but he was very soft and through and trot work pretty good as a result :) every time he tried running away i did lots of transitions to settle him back down and then carried on- worked pretty well as once he was relaxed i could then kick him on into a more powerful trot. canter wasn't the best (steering went :rolleyes:) but was ok but decided not to push the issue. thanks everyone, lots to think about and use here :)

(now am off to buy some fags :p:cool:)
 
TarrSteps said:
The German trainer who taught me the most about this subject was a confirmed cigar smoker and he counted this as a factor in his success as a horse trainer. He always had something to "do" when he was walking his horses.;) So he didn't rush, he just enjoyed his smoke until the horses relaxed and softened, then he'd balance his cigar on a jump standard (gross :rolleyes:), work a bit, then pick the cigar up and walk a bit more. It was also great for teaching horses to stand still, as he was plenty happy to stand there with his cigar until they stopped wanting to go anywhere. ;)
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I do similar, but with my phone. I'll sit on a horse in the evenings ringing clients, reins in one hand doing lots of walk - straight lines, big circles, loops, leg yields and halting. I sometimes forget that I'm riding (which is better for my horses than when I remember and start fiddling :rolleyes:) and often put the phone down and think 'wow, that's what I wanted'. My breath's better than a smokers' too! :p
 
Gamebird said:
I do similar, but with my phone. I'll sit on a horse in the evenings ringing clients, reins in one hand doing lots of walk - straight lines, big circles, loops, leg yields and halting. I sometimes forget that I'm riding (which is better for my horses than when I remember and start fiddling :rolleyes:) and often put the phone down and think 'wow, that's what I wanted'. My breath's better than a smokers' too! :p
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argh dammit- signal in our arena is crap. fags it'll have to be then ;):p
 
I don't smoke and while I have been known to text/talk and ride, I find that takes too many of the same bits of my brain for this. If there is someone watching I babble (luckily a core competency of mine and apparently something I don't need my brain for) or if I'm on my own I just zone out. :) Sometimes ages pass I'm unaware of and I have been known to stare vacantly at people trying to get my attention. All very Zen! :D And cheaper than smoking or using the phone. ;)
 
It's a work phone so I don't pay for it! :D I seem to use different parts of my brain (either that or I'm spouting goobledegook to my clients :confused:) but as I lack a Zen lobe I'll stick to the phone. :)
 
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