Sad post - horses are such heart-breakers

Tiddlypom

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Another possibilty (and I know that feeling when you follow yet one more lead after another, looking for a solution :confused:) is possible hind gut issues.

I do recommend getting the Equibiome faecal analysis done. Another £155, but the results could be very informative. My own home bred 10 yo, who the vets thought most likely had foregut ulcers, scoped clear for them but proved to have a hind gut biome way off a healthy level. She's improved a lot just by following their recommended diet supplements and tweaks for the last few months - no actual medication. She's just coming to the end of the initial treatment phase and is about to go onto maintenance. It's all healthy stuff - lots of oily herbs etc.

Equibiome analysis was recommended to me by both my regular vet and my chiro vet.

https://www.equibiome.org/product-page/petbiome-faecal-collection-kit-international

Hind gut issues cause all sorts of physical issues, including discomfort under saddle. I was at the point of pts if this last ditch throw of the dice hadn't worked.
 

Marigold4

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Another possibilty (and I know that feeling when you follow yet one more lead after another, looking for a solution :confused:) is possible hind gut issues.

I do recommend getting the Equibiome faecal analysis done. Another £155, but the results could be very informative. My own home bred 10 yo, who the vets thought most likely had foregut ulcers, scoped clear for them but proved to have a hind gut biome way off a healthy level. She's improved a lot just by following their recommended diet supplements and tweaks for the last few months - no actual medication. She's just coming to the end of the initial treatment phase and is about to go onto maintenance. It's all healthy stuff - lots of oily herbs etc.

Equibiome analysis was recommended to me by both my regular vet and my chiro vet.

https://www.equibiome.org/product-page/petbiome-faecal-collection-kit-international

Hind gut issues cause all sorts of physical issues, including discomfort under saddle. I was at the point of pts if this last ditch throw of the dice hadn't worked.
Double posted
 

Marigold4

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Thanks for replying. I have treated for hind gut with very expensive Relyne, also Equishure and a course of Ranitidine. He didn't improve but then maybe the treatments aren't effective as not vet prescription treatments.

Can I ask what you used to treat yours please?
 

Tiddlypom

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Can I ask what you used to treat yours please?
Have a read of this thread. Prior to the Equibiome analysis, I was feeding Succeed supplement on the vet's recommendation. It was no longer working. Interestingly, my mare's biome analysis was tested while she had been Succeed for 18 months, and it was still waay off :oops:. Succeed may have masked some of the symptoms, but it was not correcting the primary problem. How you address the imbalance does depend on what is found.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/has-anyone-had-the-equibiome-test-done.796673/

I do recommend getting the test done, as you will then know if there is an issue there or not, rather than best guess.
 

paddy555

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Thanks for replying. I have treated for hind gut with very expensive Relyne, also Equishure and a course of Ranitidine. He didn't improve but then maybe the treatments aren't effective as not vet prescription treatments.

Can I ask what you used to treat yours please?

I can't speak for the rest of the products but equishure is very effective. My PSSM2 needs it and it is the final successful thing that I did to resolve his problems. If equishure made no difference then I would suggest that either hind gut is not your problem or possibly alternatively that you have another problem which has a knock on effect to the hind gut and until that underlying problem is solved the equishure will make no difference.
 

SEL

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I'm another who was told there was no point in scoping a horse (she was obese) but insisted. This mare did turn out to have PSSM but her ulcer scope showed an inflamed stomach and just 2 ulcers - but one was nasty and at the entrance to her stomach. I had to treat both issues together in order to sort her out. Omeprazole, vitamin E and 24:7 turnout ignoring her waistline. She comfort eats when her stomach hurts I've realised over the years.

Just about to ask the vets to scope a fat 13h pony with a glossy coat who has suddenly decided she doesn't like being ridden any longer. I know they think I'm bonkers but this pony is not nappy nor spooky so something is up!

Given you hate sailing (!) I think a few more attempts to get to the bottom of what's wrong is worth a shot, otherwise the turn away and reassess next year is always a good plan B
 

LadyGascoyne

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I wouldn’t give up home just yet, Marigold.

My unrideable black mare was xrayed, scoped, bone scanned, bute trialed, given months turned away, months off grass, and saw every specialist known to man. Also beautifully bred (Hanoverian) and no diagnosis of any lameness or structural unsoundness so she went off, at five, to have foals and was used to produce knabstrupper sports horses (her foals are all absolutely lovely).

Then someone decided to do some dressage with her about five years later and she was like a different horse and has gone like a dream ever since. I genuinely think it was just the total time off for a few years.
 

BBP

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Thank you. It certainly would explain a lot.

How is BBP bred? He's such a stunner.
Thank you 😊 He’s 3/4 PRE from Danes Fiel and Lengueto lines, and the other 1/4 is welsh section B which I think is what makes him extra special. I’ve always loved proper welsh B’s.
 

maisie06

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Yes it is terribly sad. And I do feel down. But I've done a lot of riding over the years so I'm hoping I'll be able to move on and call it a day with riding. My husband is offering to take me sailing 😮
Give sailing a try - it's really great fun!! and if the boat breaks you can fix it easily!! I get where you are with horses though I would never have another after my lovely welsh blew his suspensories and was never right again, I had him put down then gave the other 2 away as the winters and the mud were getting worse and worse and they deserved a better home.
 

Marigold4

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Thank you 😊 He’s 3/4 PRE from Danes Fiel and Lengueto lines, and the other 1/4 is welsh section B which I think is what makes him extra special. I’ve always loved proper welsh B’s.
My horse is part Welsh B too! He's TB x Oldenburg x Westphalian x Welsh B
 

Marigold4

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Have a read of this thread. Prior to the Equibiome analysis, I was feeding Succeed supplement on the vet's recommendation. It was no longer working. Interestingly, my mare's biome analysis was tested while she had been Succeed for 18 months, and it was still waay off :oops:. Succeed may have masked some of the symptoms, but it was not correcting the primary problem. How you address the imbalance does depend on what is found.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/has-anyone-had-the-equibiome-test-done.796673/

I do recommend getting the test done, as you will then know if there is an issue there or not, rather than best guess.
I will look into the Equibiome test. Thanks for suggesting it.
 

Marigold4

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I'm another who was told there was no point in scoping a horse (she was obese) but insisted. This mare did turn out to have PSSM but her ulcer scope showed an inflamed stomach and just 2 ulcers - but one was nasty and at the entrance to her stomach. I had to treat both issues together in order to sort her out. Omeprazole, vitamin E and 24:7 turnout ignoring her waistline. She comfort eats when her stomach hurts I've realised over the years.

Just about to ask the vets to scope a fat 13h pony with a glossy coat who has suddenly decided she doesn't like being ridden any longer. I know they think I'm bonkers but this pony is not nappy nor spooky so something is up!

Given you hate sailing (!) I think a few more attempts to get to the bottom of what's wrong is worth a shot, otherwise the turn away and reassess next year is always a good plan B
Thanks for replying. I'll ask for a scope this week and we'll see what comes of that.
 

Marigold4

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I wouldn’t give up home just yet, Marigold.

My unrideable black mare was xrayed, scoped, bone scanned, bute trialed, given months turned away, months off grass, and saw every specialist known to man. Also beautifully bred (Hanoverian) and no diagnosis of any lameness or structural unsoundness so she went off, at five, to have foals and was used to produce knabstrupper sports horses (her foals are all absolutely lovely).

Then someone decided to do some dressage with her about five years later and she was like a different horse and has gone like a dream ever since. I genuinely think it was just the total time off for a few years.
That's good to know about your horse coming good. He's not going to go anywhere so we can reassess from time to time. In the meantime I'm going to lightly back my NF companion pony. I'm too big to do much with her but I don't think it'll do her any harm to sit on her a few times and it will make it easier for sell her. First time in a saddle yesterday. IMG_4642.jpg
 

I'm Dun

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type 2 pssm isnt treated with vitamin e, some do feed it, but as an extra rather than a treatment. Type 2 is a horrible thing. Not many stay in work sadly. Does he actually have any type 2 symptoms? Its worth watching this


If you think it fits, then have a look at some of the facebook groups for advice. But to me I dont think he looks like a type 2 candidate.
 

SO1

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If she is registered look at the sorts of prices they are fetching on horsequest. Depending on her breeding she may be sort after as a brood mare they are quite in demand.

How big is she and how big are you.

If you can get her going nicely and she is easy then selling her may provide funds for another riding horse for you.

That's good to know about your horse coming good. He's not going to go anywhere so we can reassess from time to time. In the meantime I'm going to lightly back my NF companion pony. I'm too big to do much with her but I don't think it'll do her any harm to sit on her a few times and it will make it easier for sell her. First time in a saddle yesterday. View attachment 80849
 

Marigold4

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type 2 pssm isnt treated with vitamin e, some do feed it, but as an extra rather than a treatment. Type 2 is a horrible thing. Not many stay in work sadly. Does he actually have any type 2 symptoms? Its worth watching this


If you think it fits, then have a look at some of the facebook groups for advice. But to me I dont think he looks like a type 2 candidate.
Thanks for your input. The only symptom that fits is the canter. I found another video by this same woman about types of canter problems and his canter really does seem similar. But, as with all these things, it's not conclusive - other causes can cause the same symptoms. I'll test for type 1 as that's easy to do, and go from there.
 

Marigold4

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If she is registered look at the sorts of prices they are fetching on horsequest. Depending on her breeding she may be sort after as a brood mare they are quite in demand.

How big is she and how big are you.

If you can get her going nicely and she is easy then selling her may provide funds for another riding horse for you.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, she's registered and by a very good stallion, Wayland Cranberry. She's 13.2, maybe 13.3. I'm 9 st and 5'4". So probably OK to back lightly but too small long term. I know they say NFs can carry farmers all day hunting but it doesn't sound very fair on the pony to make them carry too much weight.

I think I might be able to make enough to buy a bigger youngster for me in the future but not enough for anything ridden.
 

I'm Dun

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Thanks for your reply. Yes, she's registered and by a very good stallion, Wayland Cranberry. She's 13.2, maybe 13.3. I'm 9 st and 5'4". So probably OK to back lightly but too small long term. I know they say NFs can carry farmers all day hunting but it doesn't sound very fair on the pony to make them carry too much weight.

I think I might be able to make enough to buy a bigger youngster for me in the future but not enough for anything ridden.
At that weight she wont even know you are there. I wouldnt think twice about a new forest carrying that in hard all day hunting type of work!
 

SO1

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That pony will easily carry you. I am 8st and 5.2ft and on a 13.3 new forest do so a little smaller than you but in native pony circles I would be considered small and light for my pony.

You could have some real fun with her. If you get her out to some shows and get some competiton experience under belt she could make a good price as she is a mare with nice breeding . If she gets good placings in the show ring and also jumps and has a nice temperament she will be worth a very good price.

There is a young mare advertised on horsequest for 8.5k which would get you a ridden horse, maybe not a top quality ridden horse but a ridden horse.

I have seen NF go for 10k if also quiet enough for child but competitive. As a breed at the moment they seem to be popular.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, she's registered and by a very good stallion, Wayland Cranberry. She's 13.2, maybe 13.3. I'm 9 st and 5'4". So probably OK to back lightly but too small long term. I know they say NFs can carry farmers all day hunting but it doesn't sound very fair on the pony to make them carry too much weight.

I think I might be able to make enough to buy a bigger youngster for me in the future but not enough for anything ridden.
 

ycbm

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Type 2 is a horrible thing. Not many stay in work sadly.
I'm sorry but I don't think you have any evidence for this. I believe that the vast majority of type 2 PSSM horses are never officially diagnosed and that they are managed by their owners with things like warmth, vitamin E, amino acids, protein, low sugar diet and regular exercise.

It's easy to come to that conclusion from stuff being posted on social media, but people only start those posts when they have a horse that's so difficult to manage that they are crying out for help. Nobody's talking about the ones just trucking along managing it day to day.
.
 

paddy555

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I'm sorry but I don't think you have any evidence for this. I believe that the vast majority of type 2 PSSM horses are never officially diagnosed and that they are managed by their owners with things like warmth, vitamin E, amino acids, protein, low sugar diet and regular exercise.

It's easy to come to that conclusion from stuff being posted on social media, but people only start those posts when they have a horse that's so difficult to manage that they are crying out for help. Nobody's talking about the ones just trucking along managing it day to day.
.
I agree. If you read posts on here you come to the conclusion every horse is lame, unrideable, naps, has ulcers and everything else. People rarely post about their horses who don't have problems or with a bit of ingenuity they manage their horse's situation,.

Until there is a definitive test to diagnose PSSM 2 easily (and what is PSSM 2 anyway?) then it is a case of management trial and error. How many of those horses simply have a vit E deficiency which in itself is serious.
 

Marigold4

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That pony will easily carry you. I am 8st and 5.2ft and on a 13.3 new forest do so a little smaller than you but in native pony circles I would be considered small and light for my pony.

You could have some real fun with her. If you get her out to some shows and get some competiton experience under belt she could make a good price as she is a mare with nice breeding . If she gets good placings in the show ring and also jumps and has a nice temperament she will be worth a very good price.

There is a young mare advertised on horsequest for 8.5k which would get you a ridden horse, maybe not a top quality ridden horse but a ridden horse.

I have seen NF go for 10k if also quiet enough for child but competitive. As a breed at the moment they seem to be popular.[/QUOTE

We'll give it a go and do the job properly. It'll give me something to do for a bit and she seems to like the attention. Will need the money for other one's vet bills though, if I sell her.
 

I'm Dun

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I'm sorry but I don't think you have any evidence for this. I believe that the vast majority of type 2 PSSM horses are never officially diagnosed and that they are managed by their owners with things like warmth, vitamin E, amino acids, protein, low sugar diet and regular exercise.

It's easy to come to that conclusion from stuff being posted on social media, but people only start those posts when they have a horse that's so difficult to manage that they are crying out for help. Nobody's talking about the ones just trucking along managing it day to day.
.
Where are all these type 2 PSSM horses in work happily? I dont know of a single one. I know of lots, some diagnosed by the flawed test, some by biopsy etc and they dont stay in work, and theres more than a handful ended up PTS as they dont cope retired either.

These arent people starting posts at the end if their tether. I guess that tends to be the case with a forum, but much less so on other forms of social media. I know there have been appeals for happy working type 2s to tell their story, but theres none come forward that I'm aware of, so if you know any I'd love to know the details to pass them on to my friend who helps out with one of the better facebook groups.
 

Tiddlypom

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Back in 2017 when my mare had PSSM symptoms, I recall that PSSM2 was the go to diagnosis if the horse had the symptoms but tested -ve for PSSM1, which she did. I've described her as PSSM2 in the past.

As you know, I'm Dun, my mare responded incredibly well to vit E supplementation. Vet also describes her as a PSSM mare, albeit I didn't ever get the biopsy done.

Her PSSM (of whatever flavour) is under full control with vit E supplementation and also warmth. I'm careful with her diet, but she doesnt seem to have any obvious dietary triggers.

ETA Back to the equibiome test, I was chatting to the chiro vet who was out today for routine treatments. She'd recommended the test to me. She told me that she's recommended it for about 15 equine patients based on symptoms, and only one didn't improve dramatically after the test and diet changes.
 

milliepops

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Just read this and so many bells ringing when you gave your symptoms, that’s exactly BBPs ulcer symptoms! Scoped, small ulcers found, treated and soooooo much better afterwards. Obviously not necessarily the same, but that’s exactly how he was, no trot and absolutely no canter (jammed breaks on to halt). Would grind his teeth and yawn a bit too. But looked a million dollars.
just chiming in to say my mare was the same, fine in walk, very grudging mincing trot and canter would slam the brakes on and refuse to move. On the outside she was a picture of health and had ulcer-friendly management but she had glandular and pyloric ulcers that took a bit of shifting.

hope you get some answers, there's lots of avenues by the look of it but I think you're right by opting for a scope.
 

Marigold4

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just chiming in to say my mare was the same, fine in walk, very grudging mincing trot and canter would slam the brakes on and refuse to move. On the outside she was a picture of health and had ulcer-friendly management but she had glandular and pyloric ulcers that took a bit of shifting.

hope you get some answers, there's lots of avenues by the look of it but I think you're right by opting for a scope.
Vet coming to discuss scoping on Thursday. Hair sent for PSSM 1 testing. Also treating with vit e to see if that works. In the meantime he's having a lovely time chilling in the autumn sunshine and I'm relieved not to be riding him. He was clearly not happy under saddle and it feels good not to be forcing the issue.
 

SEL

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Thanks for your reply. Yes, she's registered and by a very good stallion, Wayland Cranberry. She's 13.2, maybe 13.3. I'm 9 st and 5'4". So probably OK to back lightly but too small long term. I know they say NFs can carry farmers all day hunting but it doesn't sound very fair on the pony to make them carry too much weight.

I think I might be able to make enough to buy a bigger youngster for me in the future but not enough for anything ridden.
You'll be fine. I'm just under 5'4 and riding a 13h Dales X Dartmoor. She was supposed to be temporary but my other 2 big ones are broken and shorty is fun to ride 😄

Lots of interest in NFs so if you can get her ridden away then you've got options.
 

ycbm

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Where are all these type 2 PSSM horses in work happily?

That's the point 🤷

They are happily in work and their owners don't feel the need to confirm with a biopsy or be posting about their issues on social media, because they are being easily coped with.

I had one, I believe (and so did my vet). He was pretty much a normal 7 year old if kept on vitamin E and amino acids. Without those he had rock hard bum muscles and at times looked ataxic. When I look back over time, I've had at least one other who was just felt to be "lazy" and whose father was renouned for bucking and he produced some difficult offspring, who I suspect all inherited it from him but went untreated as it wasn't a known disease at the time.

You have no proper evidence whatsoever, as far as I know, for your repeated assertion that not many PSSM 2 horses stay in work. To prove that would need a large scale study where many hundreds of horses were biopsied to find a group with PSSM 2, and for those to be tracked for several years.

Until that study happens, I find it more reasonable to believe that like most diseases, there is a range of how much PSSM 2 will affect any one horse that has it, from asymptomatic through to unrideable.
.
 
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