Saddle fitting help please

Wheresthehoofpick

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Hi. I am after some more saddle advice. I have now had my horse a year

My 15.3 ISH is very short backed. I am 5'7. 12.5 stone. Very top (boob!) heavy. Saddle fitter has put us in a Kent and Masters 17" compact GP saying that is as long as we can go.
He has a big left shoulder and I am pitching to the right and twisting in my lower back. Obviously not great. This is after saddle fitter has been. It felt better at the time but not after long hacks.

I have a solutions (£££££!!) fitter coming on Friday.
Just wondered if anyone has any thoughts so I can be more informed going forwards. I have tried to get a good fitter but for everyone who praises someone there are more who don't. We are in Bristol. D8793A82-3E3A-40A8-AFB9-43F70207F958.jpegD940E03D-FE62-4C1D-9AEB-5F603F313085.jpeg4B77150C-ACEE-4AEB-8D49-A4CC251B6A7A.jpeg844AA180-38FD-45BE-B976-CF77DACF4593.jpeg52E1A419-4406-47D1-A07D-BCFD0FEDACAC.jpegAE27973A-68DA-474D-A0D7-DE89502BC314.jpeg

Horse is changing all the time. I will attach photos. He still needs to put on lots of the right muscle. We are working on it.
 

Pinkvboots

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Hard as the pictures are upside down but I would say he has muscle wastage probably due to the saddle being too tight, and yes the recent pictures are worse if you look at his stomach it's dropped this is due to him not wanting to lift his back as the saddle is uncomfortable, so he is hollowing which causes the belly to drop.

I wouldn't use that saddle any more I would say you need a remedial fitting to get that muscle back and get him wanting to lift, similar thing happened to one of my horses years ago saddle was too narrow, what completely changed my horse for the better was getting Lavinia Mitchell out she specialises in remedial and much wider saddles which are fitted wider and used with a shim pad to encourage a correct way of going and give the muscle a chance to come back,
.
I can honestly say it's the best thing I ever did he looked like a different horse in just 6 months, it took a long time for his back to be normal but it definitely works I bought a brand new saddle from her 7 years ago I still have it but use it without the shims, his back has literally grown into it and it's an xx wide the saddle that damaged his back was a medium wide so no wonder it damaged his back.
 

Pinkvboots

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It's weird my horse has a very similar back shape to yours his dipped and flat behind the wither and also has a forward girth groove, they are not the easiest to fit but it can done with the right saddle and girth set up.

Looking at the pictures more I can see how his rump muscle has also gone that's due to him not pushing forward again because he probably feels restricted by the saddle.
 

Wheresthehoofpick

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That is so interesting. I feel like we are going in circles. Everyone is saying the Kent and masters fits him. He has had it since Feb. Wider gullet just put in as he has filled out.

I have googled LM. I'll get a fitter out.
 

Cob Life

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That is so interesting. I feel like we are going in circles. Everyone is saying the Kent and masters fits him. He has had it since Feb. Wider gullet just put in as he has filled out.

I have googled LM. I'll get a fitter out.
Are these fitters that are saying it fits affiliated with K&M?
we’ve had issues with them insisting saddles fit horses that even I could tell did not fit at all!
 

Lois Lame

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I think the photos should be taken with nothing underneath the saddle and nothing on top of it. I've just been standing on my chair and looking at the bottom photos between my legs, and this was the first thing I thought. It's just a little hard to judge at the moment.
 

Wheresthehoofpick

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No affiliation that I know of. Independent saddler. I ended up buying the recommended saddle second hand after trying new ones and then getting it fitted to him.
I have been pushing on with it because I wrongly believed it worked for him if not for me. Now I am on a mission. Question is where to go next...
 

Pinkvboots

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That is so interesting. I feel like we are going in circles. Everyone is saying the Kent and masters fits him. He has had it since Feb. Wider gullet just put in as he has filled out.

I have googled LM. I'll get a fitter out.

I don't know any of the fitters but they train with Lavinia I only know her as she did it on her own originally, I love my LM saddle it's the most comfortable saddle ever I really hope you get on ok please let us know how it goes.
 

Regandal

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It’s a minefield. I’m heartbroken that my horse has taken a massive dislike to the LM saddle, comfiest saddle I’ve ever sat on. He now has a GFS one, muscle is building nicely. Good luck with your search.
 

TPO

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Generally speaking where there is an unevenly developed shoulder the saddle should be fitted to accommodate the biggest shoulder.

A short term shimming/padding solution should be made until the smaller side catches up due to work in correctly fitting saddle.

Is there a known reason for his uneveness? Are you working in conjunction with a therapist and trainer to address this?

What is horses age and history? What level of work is he in? Had he always been uneven or did something happen? When did the muscle wastage/atrophy start or has he been like that since you got him?

If the K&M tree does fit him then perhaps look at the Universal model rather than the compact. Iirc the universal model is made to accommodate bigger riders on short backed horses. Their website has all the official blurb.

I've had 3 or 4 K&M saddles now and not had any issues with their fit or quality but I know some people arent fans.

If you're lucky @sbloom will see this post and impart some of her vast saddle fitting knowledge

ETA apologies re read your post. Was he vetted/has he been seen by a vet? My stab in the dark would be *something* going on right hind and hes compensating with left shoulder. His shape has changed and his front has gotten bigger but his hind end not so much. I would guess that hes pulling himself along rather than pushing from behind and there may be a reason why he is compensating in that way.

I'm by no means a vet and not diagnosing anything but I've seen that same presentation a lot. Horses are often affected diagonally
 
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Wheresthehoofpick

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Yes I am working with a therapist/ trainer - the same person which is helpful. She suggested shimming the smaller shoulder and the solutions saddler is coming on her recommendation. We are back working with her but not been able to for a while due to Covid

he is 9. I have had him a year now. We do a lot of hacking on very varied terrain. Just moving into having lessons now we are able to again.

I know that I have a lot to learn. My previous horse was ready made. If I did the right thing he did. Jasper needs more help. We have had to start from scratch. Big chunks of his education missing. He came from Ireland 3 months before I got him.
He has also come on loads. The next step is my trainer is going to work with him before starting me on lessons with him.
 

Wheresthehoofpick

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That's an interesting perspective. I Think his left shoulder has over developed. He was 5 stage vetted on purchase by a trusted vet. He has seen body work experts in between. He is very stiff in his right neck bend which I am working on with exercises but that could explain the tendency to left bend and then over using left shoulder. He does not use his back end at all. He walks very fast all from the front.
 
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ownedbyaconnie

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He sounds very similar to my connemara that came over from Ireland a few months before I got her.

She had no muscle to speak of and was very one sided, flat out refused to bend on the right rein and couldn’t canter in the school to the right either. I had to shim her smaller shoulder for a while.

She’s had physio 4 times a year since and lots of pole work and she’s much more evenly muscled now. The key is to get them to push from behind so lots of pole work, lots of trotting up hills! Mine had a summer of hacking and only going into the school once a week for a lesson and it did her the world of good.

Best of luck! Saddle fitting is a complete nightmare but when you get it sorted it’s so worth the money/stress!
 

Trouper

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You don't say what sort of therapist you are working with but I would certainly want the horse looked at very thoroughly before worrying what saddle to use. Sometimes apparent weaknesses in one area can be stemming from somewhere entirely different. Someone like Tom Beech (the Osteopathic Vet) would be my choice to determine just what the issues are - have a look at his FB page to see some really interesting cases which show how the whole horse needs to be considered when trying to decide how to treat.
 

Rowreach

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I looked at the photos before I read the OP, and my first thought was that a Solution saddle would really benefit both him and you, but I'd put him in one of the originals, not a Smart version.

With shoulders that big and nothing behind them, you can only put a treed saddle behind the shoulder (too far back in those pics) and therefore only a 17" which is far too small for your height/leg length.

Obviously there may be more going on with your horse than we know, but it could just be a combination of his confirmation not being suited to treed saddles, and I could probably guarantee that as little as two weeks in an original Solution (properly balanced) would show a big (and visible to the eye) improvement.

Do you know who is coming out to you on Friday?
 

TPO

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What has your therapist/trainer said? Flags should have been waving when things were getting worse (relatively speaking as in shoulder getting bigger and shoulders not evening out, not building hq muscles or topline) and reassessed.

If this has been going on for the best part of a year without a "why" I'd want to involve the vet.

At the very least if there is nothing to find then you have a clear conscience to continue with work and commence a rehab plan with the rehab plan tailored to address not working from behind and shoulders.

What is he like doing groundwork and on the lunge?

Stiff on right side makes sense in relation to bigger left shoulder. Therefore tighter on left side and not wanting to stretch left/outside side on right bend or push off/take weight onto inside/right hind.

Again I'd involve a vet at this point and take a good look at hoof balance too. Not all vets are created equal in regards to hoof/shoeing balances etc. There are some very knowledgeable people on here should you wish to post hoof pictures.

Issues in the body can often be secondary to hoof issues as the horse compensates and adapts its movement. Also hooves are good at compensating for issues higher up the body and often they tell their own story.

If you get the go ahead from the vet perhaps look at something like Straightness training and do spend some time on groundwork to get him moving correctly without the constraints of a saddle and rider.

You should find that correct groundwork can help change shape quickly and therefore hes in a better position to be fitted with a saddle
 

Polos Mum

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Lots of good advice above about his a-symmetry and why that is such a problem for the saddle and likely flag for something else. He has a very dippy back for a 9 y/o that has been in sensible work for a year.

Once you're on top of that you will always have the question of taller rider on short backed horse. There are some makes of saddle that will fit a different seat size to a shorter panel (so an 18 inch seat for you on 17 inch panels for him). I had a 17.2 eventer that could only accommodate a 16.5 inch panel given how short his back was !! Mine was ridden by tall blokes in a WOW saddle which could mix and match the seat and panels to get everyone comfortable.

I would quiz the sadder you have coming very hard on how they plan to fix that issue. You are unlikely to be comfortable in a 17 inch seat and he can't have longer panels so there has to be a creative solution or one of you will be left uncomfortable.
 
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sbloom

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I'm really sorry, I'm on PC so can't really see most of the photos properly.

That is so interesting. I feel like we are going in circles. Everyone is saying the Kent and masters fits him. He has had it since Feb. Wider gullet just put in as he has filled out.

Saddles can appear to tick boxes and the horse still doesn't go well in it, a grown up discussion is needed, not just an "it fits" and walk away. There again I feel that much of the industry fits too narrow in all sorts of ways - pommel shape, tree point angle, and rail angle and width.

Are these fitters that are saying it fits affiliated with K&M?
we’ve had issues with them insisting saddles fit horses that even I could tell did not fit at all!

K&M are generally only fitted by independent fitters but I do feel the industry sees them in a very favourable light which is not always reflected by fitters outside of the mainstream. They have VERY narrow headplates, a true inverted V, and this isn't generally a good thing in my mind. Plastic trees, and their panel construction don't match the way I would fit.

Flatter, wider rails will give your horse more room to lift, LM is wider in the rails and head but not always flatter in rails, suits some horses but not all. I would do LOTS of reading around saddle fitting, then ultimately you need to find someone whose philosophy you can understand and agree with, and a personality that, even if they wouldn't be your best friend, is someone you can work with regularly long term, who explains things to you, looks at the horse in the round, at how everything interrelates (the classic holistic approach). You'll be seeing a fair bit of them.

I agree about Tom Beech, he has his detractors but, coupled with his rehab specialists (I work regularly with one of them) they get amazing results. I would prioritise ground work and not ridden if he's dropped in the back, faster results, and may avoid a saddle change in a few weeks/months.
 

Rowreach

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There again I feel that much of the industry fits too narrow in all sorts of ways - pommel shape, tree point angle, and rail angle and width.



K&M are generally only fitted by independent fitters but I do feel the industry sees them in a very favourable light which is not always reflected by fitters outside of the mainstream. They have VERY narrow headplates, a true inverted V, and this isn't generally a good thing in my mind. Plastic trees, and their panel construction don't match the way I would fit.

Yes why do you think this is SB, I see so many issues caused by narrow fitted saddles. There's one fitter over here whose work I can spot at about 100 paces, literally!
 

Pinkvboots

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I'm really sorry, I'm on PC so can't really see most of the photos properly.



Saddles can appear to tick boxes and the horse still doesn't go well in it, a grown up discussion is needed, not just an "it fits" and walk away. There again I feel that much of the industry fits too narrow in all sorts of ways - pommel shape, tree point angle, and rail angle and width.



K&M are generally only fitted by independent fitters but I do feel the industry sees them in a very favourable light which is not always reflected by fitters outside of the mainstream. They have VERY narrow headplates, a true inverted V, and this isn't generally a good thing in my mind. Plastic trees, and their panel construction don't match the way I would fit.

Flatter, wider rails will give your horse more room to lift, LM is wider in the rails and head but not always flatter in rails, suits some horses but not all. I would do LOTS of reading around saddle fitting, then ultimately you need to find someone whose philosophy you can understand and agree with, and a personality that, even if they wouldn't be your best friend, is someone you can work with regularly long term, who explains things to you, looks at the horse in the round, at how everything interrelates (the classic holistic approach). You'll be seeing a fair bit of them.

I agree about Tom Beech, he has his detractors but, coupled with his rehab specialists (I work regularly with one of them) they get amazing results. I would prioritise ground work and not ridden if he's dropped in the back, faster results, and may avoid a saddle change in a few weeks/months.

Your right about LM saddles they suit my dip backed high wither horse but don't work on the flat backed barrel, I suggested LM because the horses profile was very much like my own horse so thought it's worth a try, hopefully she will get something to work and get him more comfortable.
 

Rowreach

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I wish I knew and it's why I'm sticking at doing what I do and not getting further into qualifications etc.

It's part of the reason I went into treeless, which I don't see as being the cure all for everything btw, but I can fit and balance to any horse and rider that comes my way, and make minute adjustments as and when I need to. But it pains me to see so many badly fitted saddles over here.
 

Wheresthehoofpick

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So thanks to all your detailed replies and having the right thing to google I have learnt masses.

To answer a couple of questions first.
I got him last October but he was not happy when he arrived. Very unsettled. We had a lot of groundwork and diet issues to solve. He is very inexperienced with no prior history. He has a fantastic temperament. I suspect he was able to be ridden because he didn't object rather than being taught anything sensible.
I had just found the solutions to the first round of problems which included a yard move before lockdown when due to Covid we had to move again away from our support systems.
We are now back on the livery yard he loves with our network of people around us. To be fair to the bodywork person I am using she saw him twice before lockdown and once two weeks ago. She is a Mctimmoney chiropractor and BHS instructor but has a holistic approach to both him and me. Giving us loads of groundwork exercises.
I am also going to get a very well respected physio to look him over after this thread just to get another perspective. Then the vet on her advice.

So whilst I have had him a year the path has not been smooth. We have had other issues to tackle on the way. We have done lots of hill hacking all Walk and trot, groundwork, Trailer training. etc. It's been a long road to get this far. I keep horses for a lifetime so I am not in a rush and want to get it right.

So this is where we now.
I tried him with a shim on his smaller shoulder. I have had a Good look at photos and this is clearly more pronounced so I need to get to the bottom of why... He went well but I thought it might have made the saddle too tight. I asked my YO's opinion before riding. She thought it was ok. Today when I tacked him up he bit me. First time ever. I tested the theory. Definitely the sensation of girthing with the shim in place. So clearly if that is the solution he needs a wider saddle to accommodate the shim.
My YO is a successful and sensitive event rider she so going to school him for me so I don't exacerbate problems with my ineptness!
I tried a Universal K and M today. It is bigger in the seat but I think the theory that he needs more freedom to move is right.
Solutions fitter coming on Friday.
I am going to put a wider bar in my K and M and try shimming again. I don't think that's a long term answer but it will be interesting to see if he moves more freely.
 

TPO

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Sounds like a sensible plan of action.

What are you using to shim? Sometimes the edges of "commercial" shims and pads with pockets can create pressure points along the edges and seams.

I don't know what they are called but you used to get, mainly white, wraps to go under bandages for travelling or stable bandages. It was a felt like material and came as a big rectangle. They make good interm shims and can be layered up and replaced as they squash down and as they are so thin it's easy to get an exacting size/thickness of shim as well as cut it to size to fit under the saddle.
 

Rowreach

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Sounds like a sensible plan of action.

What are you using to shim? Sometimes the edges of "commercial" shims and pads with pockets can create pressure points along the edges and seams.

I don't know what they are called but you used to get, mainly white, wraps to go under bandages for travelling or stable bandages. It was a felt like material and came as a big rectangle. They make good interm shims and can be layered up and replaced as they squash down and as they are so thin it's easy to get an exacting size/thickness of shim as well as cut it to size to fit under the saddle.

Thin yoga mats are good too.
 
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