Saddle fitting

Pixeldust

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Having some issues with saddle fit :( My horse came with a loaner Ideal jump saddle, which was too wide for him and a poor fit. I had a professional saddle fitter come out who spent a couple of hours with me, and assessed him as having a medium/narrow wither and a "banana" back. We tried a number of saddles and settled on a couple of Prestige models (he is an agent) which are the best options (Modena dressage flocked and Versailles jump flocked). He is keeping an eye out for a second hand saddle for me, I'm also saving and hoping to buy new. In the meantime, I have a Wintec 2000 which I purchased from someone - the saddle fitter assessed this as being fine for now if used with a puffer pad and a half pad, and using the rear girth straps.

He has been wearing it for a couple of weeks now like this, and has developed a large bald spot at the edge of the puffer pad presumably where there is friction, I'm guessing this is a sign of the saddle not fitting correctly and I really hope it's not hurting him :( The back of the saddle lifts up off his back easily. Does this mean I need a rear riser like this? https://www.acornsaddlery.co.uk/wintec-rear-riser-comfort-pad

Saddle fitter is coming back next month with some second hand saddles to try but in the meantime I don't want him to be in discomfort! Can get photos of him with his saddle on tomorrow if that helps?

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be positive

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I would be interested to see his back without the rug on, not many horses are genuinely narrow and many banana backs are due to lack of muscle and both will often change rapidly once working correctly and building up topline, it may be that he has already changed in the past 2 weeks and is now in need of less padding because he is building his own.
That is all a bit speculative as I have no idea of what he was like in condition when you took him on but in my experience if he was not in much work or possibly working incorrectly with a poorly fitting saddle the change once everything is being done properly can be both dramatic and fast.
My point being what may have been right when the saddler saw him may already be way out so be careful what you buy in the way of saddles if going on that fitting.
 

MotherOfChickens

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sometimes long pads can rub on the loins and it can be as simple as changing the pad but its hard to know without seeing him rules, with saddle on etc etc . The trouble with those sort of pads is that they sometimes don't give good spine clearance-especially (ime) using one with a synthetic saddle as the pad slips down on the horse's back during use and puts pressure on it. I would try a different pad, try for a slightly shorter one with more rigidity.
 

Pixeldust

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I would be interested to see his back without the rug on, not many horses are genuinely narrow and many banana backs are due to lack of muscle and both will often change rapidly once working correctly and building up topline, it may be that he has already changed in the past 2 weeks and is now in need of less padding because he is building his own.
That is all a bit speculative as I have no idea of what he was like in condition when you took him on but in my experience if he was not in much work or possibly working incorrectly with a poorly fitting saddle the change once everything is being done properly can be both dramatic and fast.
My point being what may have been right when the saddler saw him may already be way out so be careful what you buy in the way of saddles if going on that fitting.

It is definitely possible he is changing shape. He was primarily showjumping prior to me and he is quite hollow and hard to get rounded and on the bit... he gets there but it takes a while. I do wonder if that has influenced his top line.

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be positive

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That is not the best photo but he looks as if he will far wider than med/ narrow once he builds up a bit more, there are hollows behind his withers that should fill in quickly and any saddle fitted to him should be wide enough to allow for that to happen, pads may need to be thicker initially but gradually be reduced as he changes, it can be trial and error and you need to to keep checking the fit yourself, if the saddle is now tipping back slightly, probably the cause of rubbing, then it may need to be wider in front rather than lifted at the back so take away one thick pad and see how it looks, you may need a middle thickness one for a week or two.
It is always a tricky time when you get a new horse that is not in ideal shape as they need to learn how to go properly, have equipment that does not hinder improvement, an owner that is prepared to tweak things regularly and probably needs to have a healthy budget for saddles/ fitting.
 

Palindrome

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In your shoes I would try to get someone who fits Thorowgood saddles (or someone who is selling one and is happy to let you try it) and try a Thorowgood high wither. It was a revelation for my mare who had similar back conformation to your horse.

ETA: you need a rear gusset that will match this wither, my fitter had Albion that came close but the Thorowgood can take even more wool in the gusset area:

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Wheels

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That is not the best photo but he looks as if he will far wider than med/ narrow once he builds up a bit more, there are hollows behind his withers that should fill in quickly and any saddle fitted to him should be wide enough to allow for that to happen, pads may need to be thicker initially but gradually be reduced as he changes, it can be trial and error and you need to to keep checking the fit yourself, if the saddle is now tipping back slightly, probably the cause of rubbing, then it may need to be wider in front rather than lifted at the back so take away one thick pad and see how it looks, you may need a middle thickness one for a week or two.
It is always a tricky time when you get a new horse that is not in ideal shape as they need to learn how to go properly, have equipment that does not hinder improvement, an owner that is prepared to tweak things regularly and probably needs to have a healthy budget for saddles/ fitting.

this pretty much although I would add a couple of things. There is a lack of muscle all along the back, this may well be due to previous ill fitting equipment but a lack of topline could also be due to weakness and / or lameness issues (either previous or current). The horse needs to build up work gradually and improve his core - are you working with a physio? that would be my first port of call, physio who can give you some exercises to work through. I was a saddle fitter in my previous life and I would have referred you to a vet and physio in the first instance and then worked with your physio throughout a rehab programme to keep the horse comfortable.
 

sbloom

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Having some issues with saddle fit :( My horse came with a loaner Ideal jump saddle, which was too wide for him and a poor fit. I had a professional saddle fitter come out who spent a couple of hours with me, and assessed him as having a medium/narrow wither and a "banana" back. We tried a number of saddles and settled on a couple of Prestige models (he is an agent) which are the best options (Modena dressage flocked and Versailles jump flocked). He is keeping an eye out for a second hand saddle for me, I'm also saving and hoping to buy new. In the meantime, I have a Wintec 2000 which I purchased from someone - the saddle fitter assessed this as being fine for now if used with a puffer pad and a half pad, and using the rear girth straps.

He has been wearing it for a couple of weeks now like this, and has developed a large bald spot at the edge of the puffer pad presumably where there is friction, I'm guessing this is a sign of the saddle not fitting correctly and I really hope it's not hurting him :( The back of the saddle lifts up off his back easily. Does this mean I need a rear riser like this? https://www.acornsaddlery.co.uk/wintec-rear-riser-comfort-pad

Saddle fitter is coming back next month with some second hand saddles to try but in the meantime I don't want him to be in discomfort! Can get photos of him with his saddle on tomorrow if that helps?

View attachment 34608
View attachment 34610

The saddle is wagging at the back, the summer coat should be strong so this is only really acceptable, and milder than that, in the early spring when the winter coat is very weak.

In the unrugged photo (not sure why it didn't quote it) he clearly shows very flat spots either side of the spine, saddle related in almost all cases, which is damage to the adipose tissue (fat and fascia). I would say he's dropped through the back, I would be rehabbing him in hand. He could change shape massively IMO and I would want as much of that as possible to happen before fitting a saddle.

I don't believe any horse should be medium or narrower, if you get the right shaped tree then most, if healthy, would be MW minimum and if hollow and appearing to need narrower then more flocking/padding/shims is a much better option than fitting too narrow.

I would be looking beyond getting him to round under saddle, he needs not to be round but instead to be able to come through from behind, be totally straight, and be able to lift his neuchal ligament...this is what leads to round eventually, not bringing the head in and making the horse look round. Sorry if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs but there is so little information stating this compared to all the photos of horses with "round" necks with their heads behind the vertical. I LOVED watching a customer on her 4 year old yesterday, nice forwards rhythm, very forward hands, horse swining from behind and gently reaching forwards for the contact, how it should be done! The head was probably only just below 45 degrees.

In your shoes I would try to get someone who fits Thorowgood saddles (or someone who is selling one and is happy to let you try it) and try a Thorowgood high wither. It was a revelation for my mare who had similar back conformation to your horse.

ETA: you need a rear gusset that will match this wither, my fitter had Albion that came close but the Thorowgood can take even more wool in the gusset area:

View attachment 34632

I think the horse is too wide in the back to take the standard (same as high wither, just the panel differs) TG tree as the rails are very upright and pretty narrow.

Being able to lift the saddle at the back tells you nothing sadly, if I was to girth a saddle on point and balance strap it would be much easier to lift the back than if I girthed it onto 3rd and balance strap, so you can see it's not about tree or panel shape. Try instead pressing on the pommel, this replicates you rising in trot, if the back lifts (with the saddle in the right place of course) then it's too wide or too curvy in most cases. A rear riser is for correcting a saddle that is mildly tipping back but it would fit the horse with a deeper rear gusset, it should never be used to prop up a saddle that is lifting at the back, often the saddle is already too low in front and you're just making it worse.
 

Palindrome

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Being able to lift the saddle at the back tells you nothing sadly, if I was to girth a saddle on point and balance strap it would be much easier to lift the back than if I girthed it onto 3rd and balance strap, so you can see it's not about tree or panel shape. Try instead pressing on the pommel, this replicates you rising in trot, if the back lifts (with the saddle in the right place of course) then it's too wide or too curvy in most cases. A rear riser is for correcting a saddle that is mildly tipping back but it would fit the horse with a deeper rear gusset, it should never be used to prop up a saddle that is lifting at the back, often the saddle is already too low in front and you're just making it worse.

Not sure I follow you there, what I mean is flocking the saddle so the panels follow the shape of the horse's back. Whether girthed or not the saddle sat the same on the horse's back and didn't lift at the back in any gait.

One "remedial" fitter claimed "muscle wastage" and fitted a wide saddle with flat serge panels to the mare above and it was horrendous, the mare kept bucking into canter as she had too much weight at the back of the saddle. Some horses just have high withers and a "banana" back and that won't change (unless they become obese).
 

sbloom

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The second para after I quoted you wasn't aimed at you, I was responding to the OP's comment - "
The back of the saddle lifts up off his back easily" but should have been more specific.

Lift at the back is normally a dynamic thing, ie people get hold of the cantle and see how easy it is to lift. Some panels are designed to come away from the horse's back at the rear panel, some will be stable and work fine, some will not. So you have to assess if it's in balance, if it is then you do not need to fill the gap with a riser, many continental saddles have this upswept panel design, it's the most common shape for foam panels but I fit a flocked version too.

In response to Paindrome, there is SUCH a variety in wider, flatter saddles, many that are supposedly flat are flat in the panel, not the tree, and cause bridging, especially on curved backs, which is probably where you were with the saddle you're talking about, on the verge of bridging. I do agree with you but equally I know how often I see curvier backs fitted with banana trees and the saddles either rock front to back when the horse lifts its back (ie in work the back is flatter) or just put too much pressure in the middle because the rails are too upright. It doesn't take long for the horse to show mild atrophy, a flatness in the muscle under the saddle instead of nice, rounded muscles.
 

Pixeldust

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OK, took more photos. Bare back, then just the saddle. Also took a photo of him with a flat saddle blanket and a wintec rear riser (saddle fitter asked for me to try this so have included). While only the saddle was sitting on him, I also tried pushing down firmly on the pommel and it didn't move at all, if that helps.

back2.jpg
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Before riding. Flat blanket, Wintec rear riser, attached on first and third billets.

beforeriding.jpg

After riding:

afterriding.jpg

Couldn't get any good photos from the rear due to lighting. Also, there was a comment re summer coats - we are in winter here in New Zealand, so he has a full and thick winter coat right now.
 

Pixeldust

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Also, you will see that he is quite fat! He is being flat worked by me currently 3x a week, and jumped 2 x by someone else. He will begin getting additional work to try to get a bit fitter. I am focusing on trying to bring his back up (that is my problem, not his, I'm still learning) and ignoring his head and neck. Happy to be referred to any good resources to help rebuild that muscle?
 

Wheels

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Ok I personally would not be riding this horse at the moment, his muscles under the saddle are so badly wasted that I don't think it would do much good and is likely painful. For me it would be physio, rehab, core exercises, in hand work, walking out in hand for quite a number of weeks until he had improved somewhat. The physio should be able to give you exercises to do.

Once he has built up some amount of muscle then yes, this can be improved further by riding correctly in a well fitting saddle and the right padding.

I don't think he is particularly fat, his belly is droopy because his back is dropped and he has very little muscle, develop his core and back muscles and his belly should start to come up has his core improves.

I would also get a vet check, yes the damage is probably from previous saddle fit but there could be other underlying issues too.
 

AandK

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Ok I personally would not be riding this horse at the moment, his muscles under the saddle are so badly wasted that I don't think it would do much good and is likely painful. For me it would be physio, rehab, core exercises, in hand work, walking out in hand for quite a number of weeks until he had improved somewhat. The physio should be able to give you exercises to do.

Once he has built up some amount of muscle then yes, this can be improved further by riding correctly in a well fitting saddle and the right padding.

I don't think he is particularly fat, his belly is droopy because his back is dropped and he has very little muscle, develop his core and back muscles and his belly should start to come up has his core improves.

I would also get a vet check, yes the damage is probably from previous saddle fit but there could be other underlying issues too.

Completely agree with this. That saddle does not look right for him, with or without padding, and the lack of muscle on his back and rubbing are proof of this.
 

Pixeldust

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Thanks for the help - I have the physio coming on Monday, and started carrot stretches and belly lifts today, for a start. Once I've had their feedback I'll consider next steps (rehab/rest, exercises, nutrition, vet), and hold off getting him fitted into anything for now.
 

Frumpoon

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The second para after I quoted you wasn't aimed at you, I was responding to the OP's comment - "
The back of the saddle lifts up off his back easily" but should have been more specific.

Lift at the back is normally a dynamic thing, ie people get hold of the cantle and see how easy it is to lift. Some panels are designed to come away from the horse's back at the rear panel, some will be stable and work fine, some will not. So you have to assess if it's in balance, if it is then you do not need to fill the gap with a riser, many continental saddles have this upswept panel design, it's the most common shape for foam panels but I fit a flocked version too.

In response to Paindrome, there is SUCH a variety in wider, flatter saddles, many that are supposedly flat are flat in the panel, not the tree, and cause bridging, especially on curved backs, which is probably where you were with the saddle you're talking about, on the verge of bridging. I do agree with you but equally I know how often I see curvier backs fitted with banana trees and the saddles either rock front to back when the horse lifts its back (ie in work the back is flatter) or just put too much pressure in the middle because the rails are too upright. It doesn't take long for the horse to show mild atrophy, a flatness in the muscle under the saddle instead of nice, rounded muscles.

Steph you are a godsend!!!! Do you travel around the country to fit or stay in the East mainly?
 

Wheels

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Thanks for the help - I have the physio coming on Monday, and started carrot stretches and belly lifts today, for a start. Once I've had their feedback I'll consider next steps (rehab/rest, exercises, nutrition, vet), and hold off getting him fitted into anything for now.
Good luck with it all, with the right treatment and exercise you will be amazed how different your horse will look and feel in a few months time
 

sjp1

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TG trees will only potentially take wide fitting horses. Anything wider than that - forget it. Its just all wrong - no matter how many xxxw inserts you go for. This was just my experience from having put one on his back - I honestly wouldn't have got on it - it was just wrong - width wise, panel wise, gullet wise ..!! We have plumped for a Lavinia Mitchell saddle - what a difference for my lad. Lovely wide gullet - same width front to back - yes it needs shimming for his muscle wastage having been ridden by a heavy rider in a Stubben far too narrow saddle. Shimming in my recent experience makes all the difference - you are fitting the tree for the horses bone and filling in everything else with padding to enable the horse to get to where it should be. Fitting a saddle to whats in front of you is not great - probably (in our case) whats in front of you is not really what you want for the rest of its life!!
 

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The white half pad or what ever its called it making it tip forward. You can see the back of the saddle is higher than the front.

It looks okay without it, have you ridden without it?

I don't think he will he horrendous to fit I just think he needs to be fitted with the knowledge that he will gain muscle and widen.
 

Pinkvboots

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I wouldn't use that current saddle fitter either as he us fitting the saddle to a back that has quite bad muscle damage, you need to build some of that muscle back with in hand work and then use a saddle which is wider and shim a pad, have a look at the Lavinia Mitchell site she specifically fits saddles for horses with muscle damage, one of my horses had a similar problem and after buying one of her saddles and having her fit it, his back changed so much it took quite a few years but so worth it.

One if the symptoms of a too narrow saddle is hollowing as the horse can't move properly as it's painful, they almost feel like the hand brake is on when ridden.
 

sbloom

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Steph you are a godsend!!!! Do you travel around the country to fit or stay in the East mainly?

If you Google for me you'll find the areas I cover :), I probably travel a bit further than you think but do have excellent colleagues covering the rest of the country.

The white half pad or what ever its called it making it tip forward. You can see the back of the saddle is higher than the front.

It looks okay without it, have you ridden without it?

I don't think he will he horrendous to fit I just think he needs to be fitted with the knowledge that he will gain muscle and widen.

Actually without an accurate groundline, although what you say looks to be true, it's impossible to say. Sadly I get tons of photos like this and they tell you very little (sorry OP, not meaning to be mean, it's hard to understand saddles and what a fitter is looking for in a photo), we have guides here https://www.ahsaddles.com/fitting

I agree the fit isn't good, the clearance at the front is barely adequate, it will sink much lower when girthed. I think he needs a higher pommel but I would be doing serious in hand work such as straightnesstraining.com with him. Please bear in mind that a high withered horse will never look like a well muscled low withered cob, I have seen much worse than this horse, but he does need more muscle.
 

sjp1

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But please don't be despondent - yours isn't impossible to fit at all - mine had the added bonus of a short back as well as a dipped back and muscle wastage behind the wither - more on one side than the other. I know TG seem to be dejour at the moment - and on the face of it - change the gullet plate, ever so easy!! But I tried a brand new one on my lad and horrible narrow little panels, not that wide a gullet and it sat up at the front so so much - just not right. My LM fitter reckons my lad in 'conventional terms' would be an xxxw - but if a conventional fitter was to fit him, with his muscle wastage he would probably be in the ever so popular medium wide. And I have to say the Stubben saddle he came with - and that I rode him in twice when I tried him - was perfectly balanced front to back .............. it was only when he arrived with me I put a flexi curve on him and then up against the saddle - it was never going to be right in a million years - and the six chiro treatments I have had to had done will concur with that!! And in the 7 months I have owned him I have potentially ridden him 10 times ............. he had body issues and finding a saddle that was the right width and the right length has been not easy at all!! But better not riding than getting it wrong! I went the Lavinia Mitchell way - or Balance way - because to me it made sense to fit a saddle a little bit wider and pad it to allow the atrophy to recover - but lots of people on here use Steph Bloom and her recommended saddles as well. I couldn't afford a brand new saddle for a horse that is going to change shape (hopefully) so I plumped for a visit from a LM fitter, who let me know which size would suit best with padding. I bought a second hand saddle for half the price and if he comes up and widens then I will have enough money to flog that on and get a wider one. Not everyone agrees with the Balance system - but they have an awful lot of information on their website about saddle fitting - which is all for free. I read a lot on that website that made an awful lot of sense to me - no horse starts life with muscle wastage, dipped backs or high withers - whatever breed they are - sadly its the saddles we fit that cause that muscle wastage and those scenarios that we see every day with so many horses.
 
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