Saddle issues.....big movement, low withers, bum high!

[Charrose77]

I have owned my mare for just over a year, she is my first horse as an adult.....I had ponies until 16/17, it was all about jumping on and belting round a course of jumps, I am guessing out yard manager helped me with all the saddle stuff as I don’t remember any of these worries!!! I now have a 16hh warmblood (a grown ups horse) and am what turns out to be a total novice horse owner ?. In my defence I think during my 25 years off things have probably become a bit more advanced/detailed/complicated (you can choose which you prefer to call it!!). I bought a Kent and masters when I got her, very quickly realised that wasn’t the right saddle for her, then bought an Albion K2 adjusta tree. Seemed ok for a while, then we started doing a bit more over this summer and realised it was also very wrong. I was being tipped forward and to the left, and it then became apparent that it was pinching her behind the shoulders and she is now sadly very tight and sore. She did come with a slightly tight back, and is bum high, and has a right shoulder bigger than her left.....so we have a few things working against us.....but the saddle definitely tipped it all over the edge. I was recently introduced to Nick Dolman saddles which seem to suit her so much better. I have now purchased two second hand. A jump and a dressage. The dressage fits her fantastically and she is moving so freely underneath, it’s lovely to feel. But the jump I still feel I am being tipped slightly forward and it will move to the left once we get going in the school, even with a prolite pad, but nothing in comparison to the Albion or the K&M. I am thinking that perhaps I will end up with a dressage and a GP rather than a jump, perhaps the jump saddle is too forward cut for her. We love to jump, when she is well.......and I don’t enjoy hacking in the dressage! Does anyone have suggestions of other saddles for me to look at? Having read lots of these forums over the past few weeks I am thinking something like an Ideal VSD or the Bates Caprilli?! I would prefer twin flap rather than monoflap for this saddle as I can’t get down there to do it up/tighten once I am on, as soon as I lean forward she is gone. Thanks in advance

 

[ihatework]

What have the qualified saddlers said when you have had them out?

Girths and girthing set up can sometimes help.

Saddles slip because the forces are uneven. Sometimes it’s just a wonky rider, sometimes the horse is wonky or lame. So I’d suggest a check from the vet and some physio to help horse even up, and a double check of how straight you are.

Then in parallel a good saddler can hopefully assess what is going on and either adjust / shim the saddles you have or suggest a new saddle. From what you have said about uneven shoulders I suspect this is a horse issue rather than a saddle issue per se

 

[Charrose77]

The original saddler who sold me the k&m and the Albion is no longer involved. I got all my money back in full so no major complaints at all, but I wouldn’t ask his opinion for this horse again. The saddler that I am now using is a Nick Dolman approved fitter who I like very much, she is very knowledgeable and I feel far more confident. She wants to send the jump saddle back to Nick, and have slightly different panels put underneath. But obviously this will cost about £350 and I already paid £700 for the second hand saddle. So before I take that leap I just wanted to ask for other ideas (my poor husband can’t take much more!). I have her seen by a physio every 3 months anyway, I have done since I got her and will continue to do so. She is coming again on Tuesday and this will be the first time she has seen her since we have had the new saddles. I am also seeing someone for myself on Thursday as I definitely think I am a bit wonky. Whether I am the wonky one or I have become wonky because of being tipped left for so long is very much up for debate! I loaned a big ISH before I bought my mare and never had any issues, but in fairness all I did was happy hack him for a few months so perhaps wouldn’t have shown up. I am very aware that this could all be me, something else to chastise myself for on a daily basis ?

 

[ihatework]

I’d be inclined to stick with Nick Dolman and change the panels then

 

[Charrose77]

Yep, looks like the best option for me at the moment. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Jellymoon]

I’ve heard really good things about Nick Dolman and his saddles, but they are only as good as the fitter! It sounds like you rate her and trust her though? I think £700 for a second hand one is really good and £350 for a change on panels is not too bad at all. I’d be inclined to stick with them as it seems they are doing the best job so far.
From what I can tell, some horses do struggle with off the peg traditional brands such as Albion, K & M, they are simply the wrong shape for them. In that instance people do then go for slightly alternative options such as Nick Dolman, Barrie Swain, Andrea Hicks, or the treeless options, like Solution, Heather Moffat etc.
There are also clever things you can do with shims and girthing options - but you need an expert saddle fitter to help with that!

 

[Charrose77]

I’ve heard really good things about Nick Dolman and his saddles, but they are only as good as the fitter! It sounds like you rate her and trust her though? I think £700 for a second hand one is really good and £350 for a change on panels is not too bad at all. I’d be inclined to stick with them as it seems they are doing the best job so far.
From what I can tell, some horses do struggle with off the peg traditional brands such as Albion, K & M, they are simply the wrong shape for them. In that instance people do then go for slightly alternative options such as Nick Dolman, Barrie Swain, Andrea Hicks, or the treeless options, like Solution, Heather Moffat etc.
There are also clever things you can do with shims and girthing options - but you need an expert saddle fitter to help with that!

Yes I think that is what has happened here, the first saddler I used was a bit older and perhaps more of a traditional saddler, doesn’t deal with any of the brands you have mentioned above. The Nick Dolman saddles are just fabulous on her. And I think it’s worth sending this one off and hoping it comes back as good as the dressage one is for her. She is sooooo much happier under saddle now, it’s just lovely to feel, but also makes me feel utterly dreadful when I think how long she was uncomfortable for. She was really manic before, especially when jumping. And I just wasn’t experienced enough to know why! I haven’t jumped her in the new saddle yet, but if the difference is anything like what the the dressage saddle has done for her flatwork I will be very happy for her! In the meantime I am quite enjoying learning about different types of saddles and especially learning about her back and all the ways I can help her. It’s not something I ever gave a moments thought to before, but it’s all very interesting

 

[Charrose77]

I’ve heard really good things about Nick Dolman and his saddles, but they are only as good as the fitter! It sounds like you rate her and trust her though? I think £700 for a second hand one is really good and £350 for a change on panels is not too bad at all. I’d be inclined to stick with them as it seems they are doing the best job so far.
From what I can tell, some horses do struggle with off the peg traditional brands such as Albion, K & M, they are simply the wrong shape for them. In that instance people do then go for slightly alternative options such as Nick Dolman, Barrie Swain, Andrea Hicks, or the treeless options, like Solution, Heather Moffat etc.
There are also clever things you can do with shims and girthing options - but you need an expert saddle fitter to help with that!

Forgot to say, I have also just purchased a Heather Moffat Banana girth at the recommendation of the new saddler. Hoping that also helps!

 

[Gloi]

Saddles slip because the forces are uneven. Sometimes it’s just a wonky rider, sometimes the horse is wonky or lame. So I’d suggest a check from the vet and some physio to help horse even up, and a double check of how straight you are.

this 100%. If it happens with more than one saddle it's rarely the fault of the saddle. Does the saddle move if someone else rides her or if you ride another horse?
I'd also get a vet check by a good horse vet.

 

[Charrose77]

this 100%. If it happens with more than one saddle it's rarely the fault of the saddle. Does the saddle move if someone else rides her or if you ride another horse?
I'd also get a vet check by a good horse vet.

Well, other people did ride her a little in the old saddles and slipped. Nobody has ridden her in the new jump saddle, but they have in the dressage and didn’t slip. I am a bit nervous about using the jump saddle until it has been altered as she is going so well in the dressage. That was an idea from my instructor this week also....to put me on something else and see what happens. Will give it a go and update! Think it is going to turn out that it’s a bit of both of us!

 

[Charrose77]

Well, other people did ride her a little in the old saddles and slipped. Nobody has ridden her in the new jump saddle, but they have in the dressage and didn’t slip. I am a bit nervous about using the jump saddle until it has been altered as she is going so well in the dressage. That was an idea from my instructor this week also....to put me on something else and see what happens. Will give it a go and update! Think it is going to turn out that it’s a bit of both of us!

And yes, she has been checked by vet and physio. Nothing serious, just a tight back so far as we can tell at the moment!

 

[irishdraft]

I have been looking at jump saddles recently my horse has very big shoulders that push any forward cut saddles onto his loin and cause soreness . I have been riding in a bates prix caprilli vsd which seems to suit him but is not ideal for me as I have a long leg and jumping big hedges out hunting is not ideal in a vsd . My saddler suggested a nick dolman saddle so looking at prices of jump saddles which suit big shoulders ie harry dabbs & fairfax with their performance panels I would say stick to the nick dolman and get the panels changed sounds like a good idea. As for the slipping then it's either the horse or yourself I would say . A friend of mine who always ended up sitting to the right on her horse despite numerous pads , saddle checks etc rode my horse a couple of times and stayed perfectly central answered the question it was the horse throwing her that way .

 

[Jellymoon]

Yes I think that is what has happened here, the first saddler I used was a bit older and perhaps more of a traditional saddler, doesn’t deal with any of the brands you have mentioned above. The Nick Dolman saddles are just fabulous on her. And I think it’s worth sending this one off and hoping it comes back as good as the dressage one is for her. She is sooooo much happier under saddle now, it’s just lovely to feel, but also makes me feel utterly dreadful when I think how long she was uncomfortable for. She was really manic before, especially when jumping. And I just wasn’t experienced enough to know why! I haven’t jumped her in the new saddle yet, but if the difference is anything like what the the dressage saddle has done for her flatwork I will be very happy for her! In the meantime I am quite enjoying learning about different types of saddles and especially learning about her back and all the ways I can help her. It’s not something I ever gave a moments thought to before, but it’s all very interesting

Def don’t feel guilty at all, at least you have done something about it and are on the right track now, many poor horses suffer for years and are written off due to badly fitting saddles. It may take a few goes to get it right, several adjustments to flocking, maybe experimenting with shimming, girthing etc, and maybe you will never quite get rid of the slight slippage, especially if you’re having a strenuous jumping sess. But if you can get it nearly right, and she is happy to work for you, then just go out and enjoy her.
You may also need quite regular fittings, maybe even 3 monthly at the beginning while she changes shape and the flocking beds in. Tell your OH to brace himself!!!
I salute you for being a lovely horse owner!