Saddle problems - remembered pain?

Chumsmum

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Hi - Just wondering if anyone has any experience of remembered pain and does it sound like this is what my horse may have - I wont know for definite until next week until Mctimoney lady comes back if he still has a sore back but I'm trying to get ideas together on what to do next if she says it is better.

Trying to cut a long story short.. I bought him last August - he came with a perfect fitting saddle but it was a WH and I found it difficult to ride in and wanted more support. I have an Albion VSD that was made to fit my older pony - saddler came and checked all my saddles and with a bit of reflocking, the Albion fitted my new horse.

After a couple of months it became apparent that saddle was slipping to the right hand side - however, I was taken ill just as the saddler was due back out so I had to cancel the appointment and didn't ride for a couple of months - this took us in to December and by then the rubbish weather was upon us and I didn't start riding again with any consistency until February. Noticed that saddle was still slipping so got saddler out - she said it looked a fairly good fit but made some small adjustments. Pony was also built up slightly more on left side (no more than the average horse) and I have a problem keeping weight in stirrup on left side so we thought that this was contributing to the problem.

Saddle seemed okay for a few weeks. He had a couple of weeks off from flatwork when we moved yards end of March and then all hell seemed to break loose - he started bucking and was v spooky though was maybe in part due to move and spring grass. Instructor rode him and said he felt v stiff on right side and saddle even slipped with her so knew that it still wasn't right. Decided to get all checked out - discovered that his shoulders (particulary left) and behind the saddle and muscles over his bum (particulary right) were very sore - back lady thinks mainly due to saddle :(

So I had to lunge for two weeks and then ride him in walk only for two weeks then she would come back. After a couple of weeks of him lunging okay I decided to lunge him in his original WH saddle before getting on. He would barely go forward. Bronced on the spot if I tried to make him canter. Got a friend to watch to see if she thought he telling me something or being arsey - lunged first without tack, absolutely fine, put saddle on - it was like someone had flicked a switch - really didn't want to go forward, was all hunched up and tense.

Now obviously original saddle could no longer fit him either but surely this wouldn't put the brakes on like this? Or could his back still be so sore with just the weight of the saddle on him - I pressed my hands over his back etc and no reaction but wont know for sure until Mctimoney lady comes next week.

Does this sound like remembered pain to you - if so what do I do next? Mctimoney lady has suggested lunging him in a sircingle and then maybe a roller and see his reaction - will do that either later or tomorrow.

How do I go about getting a new saddle sorted if he reacts like this?

How do I find the best saddle fitter in the world?

He has never been cold backed and never showed any problem with the saddle (even though slipping sideways occasionly) up until this. We were doing lots of flatwork and occasional jumping.

He is a lovely pony who can be a little cheeky but generally loves work - all my instructors love him and he never argues - if you press the right buttons he just does it - please help me get him right again.

I'm so fed up because I have spent thousands on saddles and saddle fitters over recent years and I still end up with problems :(
 

soloequestrian

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The best saddles and fitters in the world are BALANCE International. Speak to them. They have huge experience in dealing with horses in pain.
 

Pearlsasinger

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I am just waiting for the saddler to come out next week so that I can start bringing my mare back into work after time off with a bad back (muscular problems). I am lucky in that my vet does acupuncture and chiro. When he first saw my mare he said she would need 2 - 3 months off. It will actually be nearer to 4 months by the time I get my saddle back if it needs any alteration. I don't actually think that the saddle was the cause of the problem in my case but what I am trying to say is that 4 weeks off work doesn't sound very long to me. My horse only started in-hand exercise 4 weeks into the treatment.
 

Chumsmum

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Thanks for replies :)

Balance saddles look very interesting and some good info on the website. How much roughly are they - I've got a feeling that they will be out of my price range.. Also, I'm a novice rider that needs support in the saddle - would a Balance saddle offer that?

When the back lady told me 2 weeks off and then walk only I was horrified tbh - of all the horses I know I've never known them have to have that much time off due to a saddle fitting problem - especially as he seemed fine up to the end of March and was working really well. He seemed to go downhill very fast but moving yards didn't help as this also stressed him. I did ask back lady if she thought I should get vet out but she said not at this stage.

It's also felt like forever since then even though it's only been a few weeks.. Perhaps he just needs a bit more time than what she originally thought.

Thanks again for replies.
 

soloequestrian

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The BALANCE Baines saddles are around £1600 for the saddle plus pads, but they also now have pony saddles which are made by a different company and are around (I think) £800 for the full system. They are also happy though to work with something like a Wintec and their pads system if people can't afford to get the full monty straight off. Have a read through the info on their downloads page.
 

soloequestrian

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PS Forgot to say, there are a few riding schools that use the BALANCE system, and at least one RDA group so I wouldn't worry about the support issue too much.
 

kerilli

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First, i'd sell your Albion. Will reply to your pm 2moro when on lappy & tell you why... On iphone at the mo & can't face 1-fingered typing the entire thing!
Yes, i think it could be remembered pain. He associates saddle with pain.
I would... Wait for McTimoney (great choice, i really rate them). Give him lots of gentle massage over back area in the meantime. Put numnah on while grooming/fussing/massaging him, start overlaying negative memories with positive ones... Think about getting on him bareback maybe? Think about giving him bute for a few days & then trying?
Are you sure the WH saddle fits now?
Best saddler... I'd contact Kay Humphries. She is in it for the horses, not the £££s unlike many saddlers imho. You'd end up with a saddle guaranteed to keep your lad comfy imho.
 

Flame_

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I don't believe in remembered pain, otherwise nerve blocks would be a waste of time wouldn't they? If the horse is still acting like its in pain you haven't found the root of it and took it away yet IMO. :(
 

Bosworth

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First, i'd sell your Albion. Will reply to your pm 2moro when on lappy & tell you why... On iphone at the mo & can't face 1-fingered typing the entire thing!
Yes, i think it could be remembered pain. He associates saddle with pain.
I would... Wait for McTimoney (great choice, i really rate them). Give him lots of gentle massage over back area in the meantime. Put numnah on while grooming/fussing/massaging him, start overlaying negative memories with positive ones... Think about getting on him bareback maybe? Think about giving him bute for a few days & then trying?
Are you sure the WH saddle fits now?
Best saddler... I'd contact Kay Humphries. She is in it for the horses, not the £££s unlike many saddlers imho. You'd end up with a saddle guaranteed to keep your lad comfy imho.


totally agree with Kerilli - the only person I would really rate in the Uk would be Kay Humphries. Totally committed to horse comfort and unlike most saddle makers it is the comfort of the horse that comes first rather than selling you whatever they happen to have to make money. I have used Kay for about 16 years- infact she trained me to fit saddles, since I used Kay I have never had a back problem in any of my horses and I have Kay Humphries/ Barry Swain saddle for all my horses. Swap to Griffen Nuumed hi wither saddle cloths, get rid of girths with elastic at one end and get rid of your Albion immediately. I am sure Kerilli will be telling you exactly what I would tell you about your current saddle and I back her completely on that one.
 

suzysparkle

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Long story short regarding the chestnut mare in my pictures. It took me 3 saddle fitters to find one that could actually fit a saddle. Then it took me 6 months, a visit to a vet hospital (who told me to put her in draw reins!!!!) and finally a wonderful bowen therapist (since the vets were useless) to put her right. The new saddle made a difference but she still wasn't right. She too was a Horse that I bought with a badly fitting saddle. She put up with it for an owner she knew but she made it very clear to me early on that she wasn't happy. Or maybe old owner didn't notice the problem, who knows? The psychological element took a long time to get her over. Re Albions Im sure I've read somewhere that they are prone to the tree twisting??
I remember looking at balance saddles before. Don't they need loads of pads? What's the point in that???
 

Chumsmum

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Thanks for replies - really appreciated.

I've been googling Kay - can't quite work out, does she make her own brand of saddles or fit others? Think she is miles away from me so not sure if she will travel this far though I'm not far from Walsall if her saddles are made there? And the dreaded question - how much roughly for one of her saddles...? She sounds like a fantastic fitter and what I need.

Thanks for the tips on making him happier about the saddle - I already use the Nuumed hi withers - swear by them and don't use anything else. I use a Wintec Chaffless girth though not sure if that didn't help with the previous saddle slipping. He came with the Farrington WH and one of the normal Aerborn girths and previous owners never had problem with either. I've also got a Stubben string girth I could try. Have never ridden him bareback but could try it if back is okay - have a new KanTeq body protector lol..

Have a massage book so will read up and have a go at that and carry on gently lunging until McTimoney lady comes. She looked at the Albion and the WH last time and said the WH looks a good fit but to be fair the Albion looked a good fit too though just a fraction longer on his back - maybe too long as he only a 14.1hh pony, think it right on the borderline.

Flame: fully understand where you are coming from but, you know horses, can think the most innocent thing is trying to kill them sometimes lol, perhaps I am clutching at straws in hoping there is nothing seriously wrong with him - will find out more when Mctimoney lady is back again next week.

Thanks again for replies - any Kay Humphries details much appreciated :)
 

Chumsmum

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I feel so guilty because it was me that put him in the Albion (though have had it checked twice in 7 months) because the perfect fitting Farrington WH he came with didn't suit me. TBF the Albion had been fine for my other pony and the only one that really suited him out of a long line of saddle mistakes :(

I too have a wonderful Bowen man and will be contacting him as soon as I have a clearer understanding of what is going on next week :)
 

kerilli

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I don't believe in remembered pain, otherwise nerve blocks would be a waste of time wouldn't they? If the horse is still acting like its in pain you haven't found the root of it and took it away yet IMO. :(

sorry, but that's totally different. Here, we are talking about the association of pain with a specific situation, not just being trotted in hand with a newly numb foot...! ;)
Apologies for the horrible metaphor, but i think it is similar to expecting a rape victim to be relaxed & happy about sex... Perhaps eventually, given lots of time, care, different partner (obviously) but not quickly and in the same circumstances as the original ordeal...

CM, Kay goes to Walsall weekly afaik (she always used to, anyway), so if you're near there that helps. She only sells saddles made to her specs by saddlers she knows & trusts, such as Barrie Swaine. She does have 2nd hand, ex-demo etc. Will pm you contact details.
 

Bosworth

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Chumsmum, the back person I would really recommend round your area is Julian Gaze, he is phenomenal. an EMRT practitioner who seriously makes a difference. I used to live not far from you and had a recommended back person out, who recommended a saddler - and that really was the start of the back problems. The saddler the chiropractor recommended made me a saddle, that caused serious back problems, although allegedly made to measure and fitted it was so badly made although it looked a good fit. It was checked by the recommended chiropractor and pronounced good. It then caused pressure points, muscle damage, behavioural problems. All were solved when I got Kay out and she condemmed the saddle, it had been built badly on a twisted tree, loose tacks bumps in the wood, proud nails. On teh outside it looked a fantastic quality saddle. I also stopped using the recommeded chiro as in my opinion if you are recommeding someone who is dangerously hopeless that in effect makes you dangerously hopeless too.

Julian is worth a call, he is based in Worcester so close to you, he actually comes down here to Devon every couple of months to treat, and I know he goes up as far as Manchester, he understands the implications of bad saddles and can easily establish the likelihood of it being that. He will also treat your horse and has made a huge difference to all my horses.

Kay will travel, she goes all over the UK, the only problem is getting hold of her as she is so busy, she normally only does remedial horses now, but as you are almost on her way to Walsall she may be able to fit you in.
 

Chumsmum

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Have got Kay's contact details now so everyone keep your fingers crossed she can fit me in :)

Julian Gaze is my Bowen man too and agree, he is absolutely wonderful :) My grumpy older pony used to be like a different horse after a treatment. I use him and McTimoney together so will be giving him a call next week to come out and work his magic on Toby - he is the type of horse who really does hold himself tight if stressed and I think Bowen is great for this.

None of my back people or saddler were connected so nothing to worry about there though I am interested in who caused your problems etc if you wouldn't mind PMing me?

Gave Toby a good brush and a little massage then lunged him without tack (fine) and then put a pad and sircingle on and gently lunged him in WTC and he was fine too so hopefully it's something we can overcome.

Feeling so much more positive, thank you everyone for your help :)
 

Oliver12

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I completely sympathise with you. After five years of owning my Irish Draught and with continuous problems with saddle after saddle and thousands of pounds wasted and ongoing lameness problems which failed to be diagnosed even after a trip to Sue Dyson at Newmarket we eventually turned him away for over six months. Started riding bareback while desperately working out which saddle to waste money on next. Decided to go for a Barry Swain semiflex and had started saving when a local saddler who knew about all the problems brought me a Kay Humphries Mondial saddle to try which had just come into her second-hand saddle shop. I thought it would do me until I had enough funds but I have been so overwhelmingly pleased with it (almost to the point of tears when I saw my horse working so well in it) that I wouldn't part with it for the world.
 
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