saddle woes causing loss of confidence?

[Kelpie]

I'm in a bit of a puzzle about this and would appreciate anyone else's shared experiences.

My 5yo warmblood mare has been coming on really nicely, been getting out to a few unaff comps and I was hoping we might even be ready for a bit of end of season BE. However, about a month ago she downed tools on me - basically refusing to go forward and threatening to bronc if you push her (she does have a bronc in her anyway but that had been getting way better so I was a bit gutted). Needless to say I didn't risk pushing through it.

So, have done all the usual physical checks - short of a full on vet work up with x-rays, etc. Fortunately my vet is also a chiropractor so she's had a good look at her, as has my physio and there were adjustments to do but nothing that really ought to have prompted her to down tools.

Her saddle is what I think the culprit is, though I'm not 100% sure. I've already had a number of saddle changes, not least because one of the saddles caused some white hairs to come through either side of her wither However, all the saddle changes were with the same saddle fitter and talking to my chiro & physio about it, they thought probably the saddles were too narrow - seems my saddle fitter was trying different saddle types but not different widths

Anyway, have now had a different saddle fitter out and have a wider fit saddle and she's happy enough moving under it on the lunge but ridden she feels like she's gone back to being a just broken youngster...... just really unsure and lacking in confidence (she did 8 weeks ridden as a 3yo before I was anything to do with her then had a break until I then re-started her as a 4yo and it feels just like when I was restarting her). With gentle perseverance we got her going into a nice walk but then asking her to trot she was desparately unsure and we'd just have to do a few steps then have a break and try and build up.

Incidentally (or not) she downed tools initially after having just over a couple of weeks off, after I got ditched from my 4yo and was a bit too damaged to ride again straight away. Maybe in that time she put a bit of weight on so the saddle pinched more and brought the problem to a head? Or maybe something else but I'm not quite sure what?

So, my main question is whether any of you have had a horse really lose confidence from saddle fit issues and if so how you approached getting them back on track?

Or if reading this you think there's another issue then I'd still welcome thoughts? I haven't ruled out yet that she may need a full on vet work-up but she seems so otherwise sound when not ridden that my chiro (who is a vet) said she'd be surprised.

I have also questioned whether I might have been doing too much but she had really seemed to enjoy her work and really we'd been to a handful of shows (plus regular clinics) but compared to what a lot of 5yo's ridden by a pro would be off doing, I don't *think* I've brain fried her..... plus she's still very happy to do in-hand work in the school so you'd think if she had a work overload issue that would show up in the in-hand work also?

Sorry for the long ramble and tea and cake for you thoughts

 

[Kelpie]

anyone?

 

[spacefaer]

Sounds like she's had a seriously bad time with her saddle fitting - to leave white hairs from a saddle in this day and age is unacceptable and I would've lynched any saddle fitter who could do that to my horse.

The way she downed tools a month ago sounds very much like saddle pain to me. Trouble is, she's a girl and will be very very wary of any further discomfort.

I think you have to be absolutely confident that you and your vet/chiro are happy that she's comfortable with the latest saddle. Then I would encourage her to go forward - take her hacking and do some fun stuff with her so she starts to enjoy what she's doing and take her mind off her back.

Horrid for her (and you) but she sounds a very genuine natured mare and I'm sure she'll be back to her usual self soon - it'll just take a bit of time for her to recover from the series of badly fitting saddles ....

 

[Kelpie]

Thanx spacefaer .... Would u believe the saddle fitter tried to convince me the saddle that caused the white hairs was a perfect fit and the white hairs were just her being a sensitive chestnut in hindsight I should have gone straight to another saddler then but I had known him so long and trusted him

Chiro vet is coming out monday to have a look at the new saddle....

 

[wench]

Might be worth considering getting a thermal imaging scan done of horse and saddle. Should show up any "hotspots" on the horse, and it will def show you if the saddle fits or not

 

[Kelpie]

Ooh, great idea, thanx wench!

 

[SpruceRI]

Have you tried riding her bareback? (If you have before and know she's OK normally?) As this is a good way of determining whether the saddle is actually the problem.

It's something I tried with one of my youngsters who moved strangely on a downward transition. Having ascertained that it wasn't her feet, or her saddle, we went down the vet route for further investigation.

Good luck

 

[Firewell]

I've had a brand new albion saddle master fitted that caused my late mare to down tools. My brave, happy jumping mare wouldn't walk over a pole! She was also ansty to ride in general and fidgity to tack up.
She had deep muscle bruising which required 3 months off. When she came back to work and in a different saddle she was back to her old confident self.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Sorry to hear about your mare, I had saddle problems last year with my gelding my saddle was to narrow at the front which caused muscle wastage behind his shoulder, I used two different saddle fitter and both said the saddle was too wide but they were trying to fit the saddle to the wastage hence saying he needed a narrower one.
I now have a Lavinia Mitchell saddle as everything else I tried just shot forward and sat tight into the hollows he had behind the shoulders, his saddle is now too wide for him but I use a shim numnah to replace the muscle lost and he is a different horse, and eventually he should fill out and it will fit him without the shims.

Although your horse may not have the muscle damage yet she has obviously felt some pain in that area due to the white hair, if she does have some wastage in front every saddle you try will just sit in the hollows without a shim numnah, if I were you have a look on Lavinias site at pictures of horses with muscle damage you can then compare to your horse and see if she has changed shape then you can go from there, my experience with most saddle fitters is many are just not aware of what muscle wastage looks like so they continue to fit a narrower saddle which is a disaster.

My horse took ages for him to trust that the saddle was not going to hurt anymore and one dead giveaway is when you walk towards them with it, he would lay his ears flat back and shake his head around and was really not happy, he does not do this anymore when we tack up, I just took things slowly and in time he became much more forward and learnt he could really stride out without being in pain, he can do the most amazing extended trot whilst ridden now which he never could do with the old saddle.

I really hope you manage to sort your saddle problems out buying a Lavinia Mitchell saddle was the best thing I ever did worth every penny and I wouldnt let any other saddle fitter near any of my horses now.

 

[Kelpie]

SpruceRI - we have done a bit of bareback (I had a similar thought to you) but in her case it's probably not a fair test, partly as we've not done bareback in over a year (since I backed her as a 4yo) and partly as anyway I can't risk trotting her bareback as she's got a big movement and tbh I'm scared that I'd move around too much and worry her. So we've walked around a bit bareback but it's hard to draw any conclusions from it in our case unfortunately.

Firewell - I'm sort of reassured you've had a similar experience....... though how did you identify the muscle bruising/ know when it had healed up?

Pinkvboots - I've heard of the LM saddles and am tempted but am sort of a bit nervous that all the padding used under them might have issues of its own? May I ask, how long have you used your one for/ what do you do in it (e.g. jumping/ endurance, etc?)?

Thank you

 

[TarrSteps]

Have you had her checked again? If there was damage to the underlying structures she will need some time and a bit of rehab.

We train horses be negative and positive reinforcement - in layman's terms, making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. If the wrong thing has been hard for a period if time (which for some trainable horses can be no time at all) then you will effectively have "trained" the horse to avoid the correct (but undesirable) behaviour. The greener the horse - the fewer positive experiences it's had - the more quickly and thoroughly this takes place. Now, if she is comfortable again, there will be a period of reeducation. It doesn't even have to be a long period - I quite often ride horses a few times after they've had treatment/time off tell them to buck up their ideas and then the owner takes over and continues. I'd even argue that if you go too softly and slowly you can tell the horse this is the "new normal". Once a horse has behaved in certain ways you do have to be aware that you can never just set the clock back and you have to be aware that the horse might try out the "new" behaviours in any situation it feels uncomfortable. Loss of innocence comes to us all, unfortunately!

Have her checked if you are concerned. And then continue on with your training. I would advise getting someone on the ground or even to have a sit in her to make sure there is nothing you've missed and to support you both on the road back, but of course that it personal preference.

Your situation is not at all unusual. Good luck.

 

[Kelpie]

Thanks TarrSteps.... the Chrio/vet has been out regularly and is due again Monday.

I do wonder also if I'm in danger of being too "nicey nicey" starting to ride her again whereas maybe I should say "come on, lets go, its fine now" but I'm a bit wrapped up in my own guilt. Maybe another jocky without the emotional involvement is worth a go.....

 

[TarrSteps]

There's a lot to be said for a bit of 'good cop, bad cop' in situations like this. Not someone to be hard on the horse, just someone without, as you say, the emotional investment.

I don't think it's pertinent in your case but sometimes it works the other way, too. I've certainly ridden many 'problem' horses because the owner has been told it's purely behavioural, only to get off - sometimes immediately, sometimes when things are not progressing as they should - and said 'call the vet'.

 

[TarrSteps]

Btw, don't feel guilty. You found the problem, you took steps to fix it - that's all anyone can ever do. The great thing about horses is they don't have those emotions - she doesn't hold you responsible for anything! Try and ride her from a fresh perspective.

 

[mle22]

You have my sympathy! Our young horse had been going really well, though we knew the saddle wasn't quite right for him. Bought him a new saddle costing 1700 and he starting going progressively worse over a couple of weeks, really leaning on the bit and looking unhappy. Thought it might have been teeth. Back is now really sore and we are waiting to get an appointment with the physio. All plans for a few little outings put on hold.

 

[Kelpie]

thanks Tarrsteps

mle22, glad it's not just me, though you have my sympathies also....

 

[Chocy]

Saddle problems- I feel like this is my hot topic at mo with my horse!
Yes been there, done that, still doing it!

If u haven't already u'd recommend getting good physio 2 look at horse. Possibly identify if there's deep tissue/muscle soreness causing probs.
Many issues for my horse with saddles slipping 2 the side, so sitting 2 near spine & causing lots of pain/muscle damage etc
I had brand new saddles fitted my qualified saddle fitter, always tild were fine, minor adjustments done. Horse seemed 'fine' just not getting the work out of him I & my instructors felt we should be. So saddle fitter again, vet, saddle fitter- always 'fits fine'
Forward few months horse kicking out on girthing, unhappy with back being groomed etc
Physio out & all saddle related. Fast forward 6/7 months of physio, diff saddle fitter who cares, loan of demo saddle & wow I have my horse!! Winning dressage tests, skipping round xc no probs etc etc
But as my own new saddle (ordered/fitted by new saddle fitter) arrived I was riding in it for 1 week all going well then in space of 45min lesson it all went t*ts up again. Felt saddle slightly off centre, cut lesson short as horse very off & finding working hard. Cue week off waiting for physio & yup saddle been sitting 2 close 2 side of spine again & hurt him. He was back in work on wed there & feel so down as its like we have gone back to 5months ago (& yes I'm using the borrowed saddle so know that's ok)
So you are not alone in this just seems like a never-ending road. I would say be guided my your own knowledge of your horse cos gut instinct usually right.
& def try the thermal imaging for peace if mind. Noone near me does it but am considering traveling just so I know for sure if saddles are ok. At thus moment I'm considering buying the borrowed demo saddle as horse was great in it- only problem is its everything I'd never want in a saddle but just going 2 have to get over that to keep horse happy!

 

[TarrSteps]

Saddle problems- I feel like this is my hot topic at mo with my horse!
Yes been there, done that, still doing it!

If u haven't already u'd recommend getting good physio 2 look at horse. Possibly identify if there's deep tissue/muscle soreness causing probs.
Many issues for my horse with saddles slipping 2 the side, so sitting 2 near spine & causing lots of pain/muscle damage etc
I had brand new saddles fitted my qualified saddle fitter, always tild were fine, minor adjustments done. Horse seemed 'fine' just not getting the work out of him I & my instructors felt we should be. So saddle fitter again, vet, saddle fitter- always 'fits fine'
Forward few months horse kicking out on girthing, unhappy with back being groomed etc
Physio out & all saddle related. Fast forward 6/7 months of physio, diff saddle fitter who cares, loan of demo saddle & wow I have my horse!! Winning dressage tests, skipping round xc no probs etc etc
But as my own new saddle (ordered/fitted by new saddle fitter) arrived I was riding in it for 1 week all going well then in space of 45min lesson it all went t*ts up again. Felt saddle slightly off centre, cut lesson short as horse very off & finding working hard. Cue week off waiting for physio & yup saddle been sitting 2 close 2 side of spine again & hurt him. He was back in work on wed there & feel so down as its like we have gone back to 5months ago (& yes I'm using the borrowed saddle so know that's ok)
So you are not alone in this just seems like a never-ending road. I would say be guided my your own knowledge of your horse cos gut instinct usually right.
& def try the thermal imaging for peace if mind. Noone near me does it but am considering traveling just so I know for sure if saddles are ok. At thus moment I'm considering buying the borrowed demo saddle as horse was great in it- only problem is its everything I'd never want in a saddle but just going 2 have to get over that to keep horse happy!

I'm assuming you're on it, but just to the general discussion, a slipping saddle is a fairly common sign of a low level unsoundness/unlevelness or something that produces asymmetrical movement without observable lameness. If the situation persists without any obvious cause or improvement, it's worth doing a soundness work up, I'm afraid. Of course, in some cases the cause of the asymmetry is known and it's only going to get better with work but fitting a saddle in situations like that is a real trick and can take nearly constant adjustment until the horse has improved. I actually "built" a series of moulded saddle pads for a particularly uneven horse once!

 

[Apercrumbie]

Sounds like you are taking the right steps re saddle and chiro. She may need a little time off for her back to recover. However I think it's important to remember that many youngsters have a 'no' phase where they don't want to work, go forwards etc. You may need to ride her strongly for a while so she doesn't take the mick. You probably know when she's in pain or when she's simply throwing her toys out of the pram.

 

[mle22]

Just wanted to say TarrSteps - your advice and observations are always very useful.

 

[Kelpie]

Chocy, u poor thing, sounds even worse than my situation, hope u get it sorted ok.

Apercrumbie, thanx, I am mindful of this and *think* I know but I probably do always give the horse the benefit of the doubt which might not always be helpful. Another reason I think I will get another jockey to have a sit.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Kelpie I had a loan GP saddle in December until mine was made I ordered a dressage saddle with short girth straps as I want to do showing in mine it was ready in the march so have been using it since then, initially I was also concerned about the shims and to start with you do feel a bit perched but I got used to it really quickly.

I have to use a nummed shim numnah with shims and a prolite so my saddle is really lifted off my horses back, he does have a very sensitive back though not everyone needs a prolite and it may only be until some of the muscle has come back then you can start reducing what you need, I ride 6 days a week between 1 and 2 hours a day hacking and schooling as we plan to do some ridden Arab showing, the transformation in my horse is amazing as he would constantly be hollow with his old saddle yet now I have a lovely round supple forward going horse.

I would put a picture up of him tacked up but I am hopeless on computers, if you send me your email I can email you some of the saddle and with it on him if you like.

 

[Chocy]

Tarrsteps- been there done that. But thanx it was another post on HHO that made me get vet out in 1st place when the whole saddle slip/lameness thing became 'big' after some1s article bout it- can't remember the details! Horse completely sounds etc etc it appears skeletally(?) he is asymmetric.

 

[TarrSteps]

I thought you had, Chocy, but it's one of those things that's always worth mentioning in context as it CAN be an earthy sign of trouble and bears keeping an eye on.