saddle woes :-(

mandwhy

mandwhy

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So have had my K&M cob saddle for my haffy a couple of weeks now and ridden in it about 4 times, walk only because of snow.

When saddler brought it my horse had lost almost a whole size since the last time he came to measure about 8 or 9 weeks prior. He said would she put on more weight and I said very likely yes with the spring coming (although I am happy with her current weight), so he said when the flocking settles I might need to put a pad under it until then, fine I thought but really it has not fitted from the start and is far too wide, and low at the front (because she has withers now? I don't know!) I get on from fairly high and lie across almost as if getting on bareback (in fact that would prob be easier)!

Have experimented with many saddle pads, got a sheepskin half pad off eBay which came today, so tried that with a normal saddle pad and it looked better but still down at the front, and as she point blank refuses to be ridden in the field currently I took her out and lined her up to the curb for a bit of a boost. Well as soon as I put my foot in the stirrup it slipped round right under her!!

It is an adjustable gullet saddle, now will a narrower gullet solve these problems or is it likely that the saddle it not right for her? It cost 700 quid which is a lot to me although I know you can pay more so I am cautious of keeping it and then finding it is not right! I know they hold their value ish but I would still lose a bit selling it second hand.

Do I get the same fitter out again? I have emailed them to see what they say.

Do I buy the narrower gullet bar and try it myself?

Do I get another fitter to see if they can adjust it?

Do I try and send it back and try with a different saddle fitter? I think we are just over the 14 day distance trading law thing.


Aaaargh its so annoying I really hoped getting it fitted and waiting for it would mean I didn't have to do all this. If I wanted to faff about with half pads, risers and anti slip devices I would have been better off getting one on eBay!
 
without seeing it it is almost impossible to tell, but if it is too wide then yes a narrower gullet might help. I have a Wintec Wide on my haffy and I do change the gullet if she loses weight or gains. It shouldn't slip round which often happens when a saddle is too narrow.

Why didn't the saddler fit the saddle at the time?
 
I would ask them to come back out soonest and you show them what happens. You should not need to,put lots of pads under a correctly fitted saddle. I have a k&m for my big lad it's brill.
Get them back out and tell them you not happy with it. If no joy then second oppinion needed.
 
I personally feel that the panels are very thin at the front and even if you have the correct width headplate in, they will sit down too far (with deep rear panels that makes for a very forward sloping saddle!) at the front with a rider on board on some horses.

There are many reasons for saddles being laterally unstable (just a check, you do use a mounting block? Even a perfect saddle on a wide horse might slip a little if mounting from the ground, and no good for saddle or either of your backs!), yes, too narrow can make a saddle slip, but it could too curved in the tree, all sorts of reasons. I also find that synthetic trees are not always as stable on wide horses as traditional beech laminate trees. No padding will stop that happening.
 
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Hmm yes, well although I think she is at an ideal weight now I think he preferred her at the previous weight 'show condition' so in a way I think he was like 'she will put on weight won't she?' And I was like yes I should think so (as in yes, it will be hard for her not to) if you see what I mean.

Her back was quite a different shape before, very flat like a table and now she has withers, so I guess her wither profile changes a lot between the two sizes (annoying) which I guess is why it sits low at the front now?

I was already a bit annoyed as they said 3-4 weeks and it took 8-9 in the end with me only getting updates when I hassled them (obv we had Christmas in between which accounted for some of the time lost).

I really like the saddle for me as it actually feels like I have extra room (17.5) and as I am tall and not skinny I don't often get that, I think it is the square cantle that does it.

Sigh, I'd just love to be able to get on from the ground and not have to worry about it slipping ridiculously, and in her current state you can feel her spine and she is more 'two sided' so I don't think it would be impossible. Sigh.
 
Ah sbloom yes I do use a mounting block (well, improvised) where possible as I have not got on a horse from the ground for years (bad knees and bad arm)! However I have not perfected lining my horse up to gates for a boost which would be useful so tried with the curb today hence to ridiculous slip
right round today.

When I get on from a bench or wall or somewhere I have to kind of get on with minimal weight in stirrup, saddle comes towards me a bit but I lean right over to counter the slippage and then get my foot in the right stirrup and get it back into position before being able to girth up another two holes or so (it would be funny if I didn't think it upset my horse). I have a wintec girth with elastic inside which saddler recommended and not sure if that is helping as I have trouble doing it up and then suddenly it is loose, maybe a non stretchy girth would be better or something but I know not to do it up super tight.

I would be surprised if it was too narrow!

Looking at it the back panels are quite big compared to the front, but shouldnt the saddlers be able to sort that out with flocking adjustment?

I was going to contact you for a native pony saddle but they are a bit too expensive new :-(
 
If you look at how the panels are made, they have to be made with a certain amount of room in them, and the front panels are very flat with not much room, not much height to be gained. You can only flock where there is space, and if you overdo it you simply end up with too-hard panels.

There are used NP saddles around and I am happy to advise what might work from photos :).

Wintec girths - try stretching it! A wide padded Atherstone with strong elastic at both ends will help the RIGHT saddle stay in place :). We make them, Shires do, English Bridles do...(though not checked the elasic strength on the latter).
 
Are you sure its weight all round she has lost or is it just back muscle? If she has muscle wastage she will be narrower some saddle fitters cannot tell the difference in my experience, I only ask as you say the withers are more prominent which may indicate muscle loss behind the shoulder caused by a tight saddle, some fitters then fit with a narrower saddle which makes it worse as the muscle just wastes away even more, it will also make the saddle look low at the front, look behind the shoulder are there hollows?
 
I wouldn't be happy with this fitter leaving things like this. Mine was out three times with my new saddle due to the pony changing shape so much, in the mean time I had a loan saddle from them. In the end I changed the recipient of the saddle and this was all included in the 60 quid saddle fitting fee and I have another check still included next month! I think you should kick up hell, its not good enough what you have ended up with.

How is your mare going?
 
I have emailed them and one of the people there said they will discuss it with him and get back to me tomorrow, so hopefully they will come out and it will be included in the original cost.

Will see how it is after that sbloom and then probably look at NP otherwise.

Interesting what you say about the muscle wastage there pinkvboots, although it wouldn't be from an ill fitting saddle because she hasn't had a saddle on in months! I bought her in October and left her a month or so as I was recovering from injured arm surgery and figured no harm letting her settle in, then ordered the saddle and waited... before that her previous owner had a broken finger and had not ridden her for a few weeks (we were a right pair when I went to try her!), although her saddle there did not fit either and that was partly why she was being sold as owner just couldn't afford to get brand new saddles fitted and refitted. Who can blame her!

Hard to say whether she has lost muscle as she was so round and 'smooth' due to chub, but I do think she has lost some due to not being ridden for so long and hopefully a bit f topline will help with the saddle fit!

Apart from that she is doing great thanks Ff! She hardly batted an eyelid when I got on her after all that time and she is getting used to traffic gradually, have only been on two hacks in company and was super good, I have to get her good hacking as she is literally immovable when it comes to schooling in the field haha, I knew that when I bought her though, figured I'll convince her eventually and certainly in no rush to be doing endless circles, just ten mins before we go out would be grand :-) she is a bit of a plod really which is why I bought her, I am much more confident about the thought of encouraging 'forwards' than constantly feeling like I'm on a rocket launcher.... Ploddy is what I need after my last mishap!
 
There are a few clues while riding which will indicate a tight saddle at the front, walking is the hardest gait so the walk will be slow, and a reluctance to go forwards and hollowing to the saddle, can you put your hand in the front and slide it all the way down while you are sitting on it?
Also if they have dips and hollows the saddle will slide and sit in them so will make it uncomfortable, My old saddle fitter kept telling me my horses saddle was too wide, but he had muscle wastage due to it being too narrow and the muscle wastage made him look narrower, I only use Lavinia Mitchell now for saddles and only use her saddles google her its an interesting site.
 
They can get muscle wastage from using a too wide saddle as well ad a too narrow one. Too wide will jam down behind the shoulder blades. If its a whole size too wide that's probably why its sitting so low at the front. It will be hurting your horse so I'm not surprised she's unhappy to be ridden. I see the saddlers point about her gaining weight, but these adjustable saddles are supposed to accommodate just that. It's a few months until spring when she will start to put on weight, so why didn't he change it to a narrower gullet plate while he was there? You're supposed to change the gullet rather than messing around with pads or what's the point in buying an adjustable saddle? If you do want a pad a prolite adjustable front riser with all the wedges in should narrow the saddle by about a whole size. As another poster said, once you get muscle wastage (hollows either side of the withers) then it becomes harder to fit a saddle, because IME many saddlers will fit to what is there, so you get a saddle that's too narrow and makes the problem worse.
 
SS he did measure for the other gullet as well but he said it would be too narrow, so I guess she is between sizes but I think that the narrower one will probably be better. You are quite right I don't want to be messing about with pads on an adjustable saddle. I said this to the saddler in an email that I know people who don't get saddles fitted and they will get pads and risers and whatnot and I assumed I wouldn't have to do that with a professionally fitted one. Plus I really didn't want to buy brand new if avoidable but thought whatever is best for the horse as I just want it to fit her! Also thought adjustable seemed a sensible investment.

Pinkvboots yes I have heard Lavinia is really good I must have a look at her site. I think the saddle is loose at the front so slips down behind the shoulder, when I tried with the half pad yesterday wasn't happy with how it sat a bit tight behind the shoulder, and it seemed to want to be too far forwards, whereas the very first time I tried it it slipped back a bit (but that time I didn't want to do the girth up very tight as it had been so long for the horse so thought that was probably it). She has big shoulders so needs a straight cut model which this seems to be.

Horse is enthusiastic to go on hacks but doesnt like schooling. It turns out when she was sent away to be backed in previous home they kept her in 24/7 and schooled her til she and rider were dripping with sweat... So I don't blame her there. I knew about that when I bought her, pretty sure it is psychological but I did wonder if when saddle is sorted it will be better.
 
My horse hasn't been worked too much over the winter and has lost a little muscle on his back. I had a saddle fitted at the weekend which has the xxw gullet in it, but the saddler added more flocking at the front to fill out the space. Once he muscles up a little I will get the saddler back out to remove flocking and check it isn't too tight.

If I was you I would get original saddler back out again and explain your worries to him. If you still aren't convinced that he has got it right then get someone else out. I certainly wouldn't be happy with spending £700 on a saddle and then worrying about it not fitting.
 
Thanks cobsgalore, that's what I was thinking that the flocking could be adjusted front to back, if not room in the front for more, then maybe take some out of the back? I don't know I'm not a saddler, sigh...

She has defo lost something over her back whether it be fat or muscle, I couldn't feel her spine when I got her but then she was rather round!

Out of interest CG, have you ever attempted to get on from the ground with your new saddle? I just wonder what degree of slippage is normal with a round, flat backed horse as I don't recall ever riding one before I got her! I don't like getting on from the ground but sometimes if I have to get off, I'll be halfway home before a suitable object comes along :-) I don't mind walking her in hand, lord knows I do it all the time what with lack of saddles, but it would be nice to ride when I can!
 
mandwhy said:
Thanks cobsgalore, that's what I was thinking that the flocking could be adjusted front to back, if not room in the front for more, then maybe take some out of the back? I don't know I'm not a saddler, sigh...

She has defo lost something over her back whether it be fat or muscle, I couldn't feel her spine when I got her but then she was rather round!

Out of interest CG, have you ever attempted to get on from the ground with your new saddle? I just wonder what degree of slippage is normal with a round, flat backed horse as I don't recall ever riding one before I got her! I don't like getting on from the ground but sometimes if I have to get off, I'll be halfway home before a suitable object comes along :-) I don't mind walking her in hand, lord knows I do it all the time what with lack of saddles, but it would be nice to ride when I can!
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My cob also had a lot of fat on his back and either side of his withers when I got him. Now he has lost weight he has withers(!) and I can also feel his spine. I'm hoping that with time and the correct work, he will be able to build muscle up on his back instead of fat!

Tbh I never get on from the ground. If I do, then I always get someone to hold the other stirrup.
 
Best way to keep track of muscle or lack of it is get a flexi strip I think WH Smith do them, put it where the saddle would sit at the front and push it down on the contours of her back then do a tracing on paper, do one every so often to see if the muscle is changing, you can also do one of your saddle stand it on its front and draw the shape then compare to the back tracing, you can then see if the saddle is a totally different shape.

I try not to mount from the ground not good for the back or saddle really, but if its safer to get on and its your only option then needs must.

I could write a book about the problems I had, my Arab has a really hard back to fit only Lavinia has been able to sort it out for me, he had muscle wastage behind shoulder, his back is also quite dipped, he has a wither but is very wide, thank god for shim numnahs thats all I can say. He was also lop sided one shoulder muscle bigger than the other so it throws the saddle to one side, had a nightmare thought I would never ride the horse with all his problems.
 
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Pinkvboots said:
There are a few clues while riding which will indicate a tight saddle at the front, walking is the hardest gait so the walk will be slow, and a reluctance to go forwards and hollowing to the saddle, can you put your hand in the front and slide it all the way down while you are sitting on it?
Also if they have dips and hollows the saddle will slide and sit in them so will make it uncomfortable, My old saddle fitter kept telling me my horses saddle was too wide, but he had muscle wastage due to it being too narrow and the muscle wastage made him look narrower, I only use Lavinia Mitchell now for saddles and only use her saddles google her its an interesting site.
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this is interesting as I cant slide my hand down when im sat in the saddle.... saddle was fitted on sunday... but its on trial so if it doesnt fit will give it back!!
 
They are coming out on Saturday to refit, I said what if it doesn't and they said obviously they don't want to sell people saddles that don't fit, so that's good! Just trying to keep it free of scratches and mud, oh and getting rained on which is pretty hard currently! Should probably get a waterproof cover.

Your experience of NP would be great shadowboy, PM away!

I did have a look at Lavinia's website, lots of good info on there. It does sound like a good idea with all the shims if they are there to build muscle rather than to just counteract a bad fit. I loved the bit about folding blanket under military saddles, sounds like an art form that, the good old days eh!

In
 
In other news as I now know how chilled my horse is I decided to give it a go bareback today (I have never done this ever), she was in a bit of grump today and I couldn't quite get on so was flat on my back in the mud before we'd even started, good times!

Oh well, first little tumble after breaking my arm, best to get it out of the way early? I did attempt again on principle but decided to leave it til I can have someone hold her still next time :-)
 
mandwhy said:
Out of interest CG, have you ever attempted to get on from the ground with your new saddle? I just wonder what degree of slippage is normal with a round, flat backed horse as I don't recall ever riding one before I got her! I don't like getting on from the ground but sometimes if I have to get off, I'll be halfway home before a suitable object comes along :-) I don't mind walking her in hand, lord knows I do it all the time what with lack of saddles, but it would be nice to ride when I can!
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There shouldn't be slippage generally, there will be a little mouting from the ground, but if you have the right girth and hold the offside stirrup, all should work okay.

shadowboy said:
this is interesting as I cant slide my hand down when im sat in the saddle.... saddle was fitted on sunday... but its on trial so if it doesnt fit will give it back!!
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No you shouldn't necessarily be able to get your hand underneath when you're sitting on it. In fact the few saddles where you can are ones that I feel are an odd fit - the tree curves out from the horse at the front, meaning the whole saddle flares out and you can get your hand under the very front, but that means there is less weight bearing area, less contact, less grip at the front. You need as much contact and grip as possible on a wide horse and as much area to spread the weight as possible on a narrow horse!

The test is to press on the pommel and, if on a reasonably healthy back, the front panel, from the pommel to the points of the tree, should feel like it has even pressure all the way down. A damaged back will likely have a concave shape at the wither and will need padding/shimming to allow the back muscles to lift and function.

I fitted a VERY muscle wasted horse today and fitted the tree half a size wide, with a sheepkin Mattes pad with one shim either side at the front. We might go wider than that relative to the horse, but every horse is different and we shall have to see how he develops. He's older as well which makes it more difficult and holds no condition at all.
 
Brain is whirring....muscle wastage can be caused by movement, which is when a too-wide saddle can indeed cause muscle wastage. Without corrective padding, it is likely to drop at the front and lift at the back in rising trot, and possibly canter. That movement can carve away muscle under the saddle points, also under the rear panels. A too wide saddle can indeed be padded to stop that movement, if it otherwise fits, but I prefer to profile the shims to fill the gap under the points rather than using a pad of uniform thickness. Otherwise the saddle will have greater pressure under the top edge of the panel, and will have a lack of pressure under the points - that pressure in itself CAN cause muscle loss as well.

And if anyone wants to know if their saddles fits, do go back to the fitter, and listen to your horse. It is very easy to read someone's opinion (I guess mine included, but at least I'm a fitter!) and panic. All fitters and saddle brands vary in how they fit - ask questions and see if the system of your fitter and the brands they fit seems to make sense.
 
mandwhy said:
They are coming out on Saturday to refit, I said what if it doesn't and they said obviously they don't want to sell people saddles that don't fit, so that's good! Just trying to keep it free of scratches and mud, oh and getting rained on which is pretty hard currently! Should probably get a waterproof cover.

Your experience of NP would be great shadowboy, PM away!

I did have a look at Lavinia's website, lots of good info on there. It does sound like a good idea with all the shims if they are there to build muscle rather than to just counteract a bad fit. I loved the bit about folding blanket under military saddles, sounds like an art form that, the good old days eh!

In
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I'll PM tomorrow once i've tried some riding in it. but fit isnt looking good so far tbh.
 
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