Saddles - larger seat on shorter panel

[throwaway2022]

Wasn’t quite expecting the new one to be so short backed, I guessed he’d take a 15.5” but physio who’s currently doing her saddle fitting training reckons 15”…my bum is not that small ?

I’ll be bringing him into work using a pad (just walk) so won’t be buying til maybe Feb/March but wondering what options you’d be looking at other than AH? I think a Fylde Ray would work well for him so something of a similar shaped tree.

I’d prefer 2nd hand if poss, what search terms would you use on fb, I’ve not been very successful.

Could I get a 16” seat but 15” panels, is a full inch doable?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yes, but a saddler would have to do that. There are a few threads on it from previous years.

 

[sbloom]

I would not recommend a full inch. Every panel that's simply shortened to stay on the back rib is a compromise, and the shorter you make it (plus the higher the cantle) the greater that compromise is. Rea gussets are deep and long (in some cases) to reduce leverage on the back of the saddle. There are saddles designed from the ground up that carry the rider's weight more forwards and have a shorter panel that balances under the rider, not relying on the panel at the front and rear to prop it up, that can really help solve this issue (forward balance saddle, round panel) but often they're not an easy option, needing horse and rider to be straighter than most.

A traditional English saddle, like the AH upswept or the Fylde Ray, will tip back on the wrong shaped back and must be fitted with great care. It works with slightly dropped backs, very short backed/croup high combos too, but usually these issues are postural and with the right saddle they improve so much that the horse then needs a flatter panel/tree.

And there is no "15" saddle length for the horse, every saddle varies, but up to an inch, for the same seat size.

 

[throwaway2022]

I would not recommend a full inch. Every panel that's simply shortened to stay on the back rib is a compromise, and the shorter you make it (plus the higher the cantle) the greater that compromise is. Rea gussets are deep and long (in some cases) to reduce leverage on the back of the saddle. There are saddles designed from the ground up that carry the rider's weight more forwards and have a shorter panel that balances under the rider, not relying on the panel at the front and rear to prop it up, that can really help solve this issue (forward balance saddle, round panel) but often they're not an easy option, needing horse and rider to be straighter than most.

A traditional English saddle, like the AH upswept or the Fylde Ray, will tip back on the wrong shaped back and must be fitted with great care. It works with slightly dropped backs, very short backed/croup high combos too, but usually these issues are postural and with the right saddle they improve so much that the horse then needs a flatter panel/tree.

And there is no "15" saddle length for the horse, every saddle varies, but up to an inch, for the same seat size.

Thank you for this, I did wonder about a full inch being too much. Whilst I would prefer a proper saddle, I won’t be competing so worst case scenario is getting a comfy bareback pad, I’m a happy hacker at heart and hey - it would do wonders for my seat and core! ?

Although I’m light enough to ride him, I am trying to drop more weight so I think once I’m at my goal, it would be worth getting a fitter out to assess the situation. Made to measure would be an option if they think that could be the answer. Do you cover Cheshire?

 

[Kat]

Have a look at a solution saddle too, I looked into them for this reason

 

[Baywonder]

If you measure from snugly behind the shoulder to the last rib, this will give you the measurement of the panel your pony can take.

The 16.5" Ray WH close contact is approximately 16.75" in panel length and the Ray flocked panel version is approximately 17.25" in panel length. This same tree is also used in the Ray Oxford.

Also, please remember the measurement from head nail to the cantle shouldn't be relied on, as it is the base unit length of the tree and panel which is important. Top measurements can vary greatly due to deep / shorter cantles, and also the head nail being put in the incorrect place in order for the saddle to measure what the customer wants!

It might be worth contacting Fylde Saddlery to see what they have in stock.

I hope this helps in your search for your saddle.

Just out of interest, how many hands is your pony?

 

[throwaway2022]

Have a look at a solution saddle too, I looked into them for this reason

Thanks, will do!

 

[throwaway2022]

If you measure from snugly behind the shoulder to the last rib, this will give you the measurement of the panel your pony can take.

The 16.5" Ray WH close contact is approximately 16.75" in panel length and the Ray flocked panel version is approximately 17.25" in panel length. This same tree is also used in the Ray Oxford.

Also, please remember the measurement from head nail to the cantle shouldn't be relied on, as it is the base unit length of the tree and panel which is important. Top measurements can vary greatly due to deep / shorter cantles, and also the head nail being put in the incorrect place in order for the saddle to measure what the customer wants!

It might be worth contacting Fylde Saddlery to see what they have in stock.

I hope this helps in your search for your saddle.

Just out of interest, how many hands is your pony?

Thank you! I did try measuring last night but got a bit confused after reading you need to leave space behind the scapula to allow movement? I’ll have another go later.

We’re only an hour from Fylde and will be nipping over in Spring anyway to get our A’s saddle checked and a few more bits and bobs. I’ll speak to them about bringing Piggy along too ??

Pony is only 12.2 so it was always a risk re saddle, he was bought unseen and is shorter coupled than I’d expected which isn’t a bad thing confo wise! He’s only mine for a couple of years til my youngster is ready to back then my daughter will move onto him, she’s teeny tiny so won’t have the same problem as her Mother’s ample behind ?

 

[sbloom]

Thank you! I did try measuring last night but got a bit confused after reading you need to leave space behind the scapula to allow movement? I’ll have another go later.

Tree points need to be 4-5cm behind the back edge of the back of the shoulder blade to allow for scapula movement. The tree points usually sit a couple of cm back into the panel. Depending on the cut of the saddle the panel may or may not be able to come right up to the back of the shoulder blade, with a straight cut saddle like a WH then it may nee to be a smidge further back on the saddle platform in order to clear the shoulder blade when the horse moves the forelegs.

@throwaway2022 I don't cover Cheshire but you could try Plateau Holistic Equine.

 

[throwaway2022]

This is a 14” on him, obviously doesn’t fit but highlights how short backed he is!!

 

[Gloi]

I've always used reactor panel type saddles on my ponies successfully. They are on flexible panels which are over the shoulder blade which can move freely under them.

 

[sbloom]

This is a 14” on him, obviously doesn’t fit but highlights how short backed he is!!

And that's not a big 14" either, Fyldes come up 1/2 smaller than many, and to me, that's fractionally on the shoulder still so could do with being a smidge further back.

I've always used reactor panel type saddles on my ponies successfully. They are on flexible panels which are over the shoulder blade which can move freely under them.

I'm presuming on bigger ponies? I used to fit them, in fact they were more or less the reason I became a fitter, and can't think of an instance where they would work on this short a back.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

And that's not a big 14" either, Fyldes come up 1/2 smaller than many, and to me, that's fractionally on the shoulder still so could do with being a smidge further back.



I'm presuming on bigger ponies? I used to fit them, in fact they were more or less the reason I became a fitter, and can't think of an instance where they would work on this short a back.

I'm quite pleased as I thought it could come back slightly before I read your post ? thats years of trying to understand Arab saddle fit ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I actually prefer the Black country show saddles to fylde as they are wool flocked whereas alot of fylde are foam and I do think they are nicer to ride in, but I actually prefer a nice dressage saddle these days so I sold all my show saddles.

 

[throwaway2022]

It was definitely behind his scapula initially but could well have shifted forwards as I was doing the girth up, or maybe his fat pads are throwing the photo off? Or am I thick and do I need to be leaving more space behind his shoulder?!

Yeah the saddle is absolutely tiny, super cute but so small. Which is fine for my daughter, just not me ? My friend’s daughter is very very slim and the saddle was too small even for her when she came over to sort out a schooling issue with the sec A.

I LOVE Black Country saddles too! Is it the Poppy that’s the smaller one, I’ll have to have a nosey? I know local friends have found it tricky to get a BC fitter out but could well have changed now. I’d prefer something with a deeper seat but I can’t see that working in this case.

As excited as I am to get started with this one, roll on my Highland being old enough to back ??‍

 

[sbloom]

It was definitely behind his scapula initially but could well have shifted forwards as I was doing the girth up, or maybe his fat pads are throwing the photo off? Or am I thick and do I need to be leaving more space behind his shoulder?!

I think people often don't find the correct back of the shoulder blade, and bear in mind you must feel on both sides as shoulders are seldom symmetrical. Feel firmly, from the neck in front of the scapula, feel right over the top of it, moving backwards, and you should then more clearly feel where your fingers drop off the back of it. Then find the tree point pocket, and get the front edge of it 2-3 fingers behind that very back edge, both sides.

Please also notice that the saddle in the photo is low at the back - it's not that it's tipping back, it's been made that way, as if you lifted the back the flap would end up behind the vertical. The rider should sit in the middle of the seat, well over the flap (draw a line straight down from the lowest point in the seat) and not on the back half of the saddle. It's an issue I see often with super close contact show ring saddles. And yes, they can be VERY flat in the seat, and narrow.

For an adult you don't necessarily need a deep seat but a saddle this flat can't support the pelvis properly. I can certainly say the AH pony saddles would have a slightly deeper, and wider, seat. I'd be very concerned about footprint though, as I say, this model comes up at least 1/2" smaller than many others.