Sarcoid help please - after they come off?

[TPO]

The sarcoid was treated a few months over, scabbed over but never came off.

The vet checked it the other week and said I was to soften it and pick it off. Well it came off last night but underneath is lumpy and there is a raised red lump that looks like a smooth wart/blood blister?

I'm guessing that you'd want it to be smooth new pink skin underneath and that these lumps indicate that the sarcoid will just grow back?

I've phoned the vet for advice and waiting for her to phone back, meanwhile any advice or opinions welcomed.

Insurance didn't pay out of the first round of treatment so £400 down just now, don't think I can afford to go through another round of it at this time of year

If it does need re-treated should it happen now or does it need to heal over first?

Is there any cream that can be put on the new flesh just now (like dermisol?) to try to heal it up?

Thank you for your opinions

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

Hi TPO. My horse had Liverpool Cream treatment for a suspicious scabby lump about 18 months ago. The scab eventually came away and it was just ordinary skin underneath. If your horse had a particularly nasty sarcoid it may be just that the tissue underneath was damaged and will need a little longer to recover. You're right in that it may also mean that the sarcoid was deeper than anticipated and this treatment may have to be repeated. But I'd stay optimistic for now and just give it a little time to heal. Liverpool cream is extremely toxic and works by destroying the cancerous cells. Inevitably, some healthy cells can also get damaged (like chemotherapy in people). I'd be very, very cautious what you now put on the tissue under where the sarcoid was. While you wait for your vet's advice, I'd just put the gentlest of soothing creams on it, eg suitable for a baby. Don't put anything on it that says on the label "encourages new skin growth" or anything like that. If your ned still has cancerous tissue lurking in there, the last thing you want to do is encourage the "bad" cells to grow again.

Let us know how he gets on x

 

[TPO]

thanks Box of Frogs.

I've spoken to the vet and she said to leave it a few days and see what I think then. If I'm still concerned I can make an appointment for someone to come out.

I asked if I should use anything on it and she said "yes, I could if I wanted". I've never treated a sarcoid before and I've heard things about creams (like camerosa?) that can stimulate sarcoids

Anyway, I asked about dermisol and was told that would be fine to use? After reading your post I'm not so sure.

The sarcoid was treated with Liverpool Cream. I have to say I don't have a huge amount of faith in my vets... Changing practices isn't an option as nowhere to move to so I just have to grin and bare it.

What creams, if any, would you recommend? Should I clean it, if so how regularly and with what?

I soaked it off with diluted hibi-scrub as advised by the vet.

I've read the sarcoid website but can't find any information about this stage.

Thank you again for your help

 

[embonaught]

I'm not a vet, but can only tell you my experience. My mare had a quite flat sarcoid on her chest - about 5cm round. Was flaky, no hair grew and had a number of little warty nodules poking out of it. Was diagnosed as sarcoid at the vetting.
I figured that it wasn't bothering her/tack, wasn't growing so I'd leave it well alone. Obviously, I researched them on the internet and discovered that it's all to do with the immune system. About two years after I'd first had her (sarcoid still hadn't changed) I bought a month's supply of Emmune (think it's equine america) and blow me if the bloody thing has completely disappeared. Hair has grown back and you wouldn't even know it was there.
She's also got a pea shaped nodule one behind her ear - which has shrunk and is very nearly gone. I really think it's down to boosting the immune system, proper feeding and management. Not saying it'll work but try emmune, you've got nothing to lose and it's far less invasive than creams, etc (and a lot cheaper!). Let us know how you get on.

 

[TPO]

Thanks for taking the time to reply with your experience. Do you have a link to the product?

Thank you

 

[kerilli]

i've found that when a sarcoid comes off and leaves a hole, it is less likely to grow back. i'd probably cover it thickly with vaseline. there is a theory, mad as it sounds, that starving them of air can kill them off (a friend has got rid of some with thick axle grease, as she's sure that's all camrosa is!!).
i use Newmarket Bloodroot Cream now, and it has got rid of about 4 small ones on one of my mares, and they've not come back, 2 years later. a LOT cheaper than Liverpool cream, too.
i've had success with honey in the past (don't use in summer though if you have bees nearby, poor mare got stung on the leg a few times by angry bees attracted by the honey) and with Aluspray, brilliant stuff, seemed to totally dry them out. Great to use on greys too as it covers them completely.

 

[TPO]

Thank you. I'll smother it in vaseline tonight. It most definitely hasn't left a hole

the scab that came off was concave so it didn't look like the sarcoid was gone.

Where do you get blood root cream from? If using it would you let the skin heal first before treating or would you put it on the open "wound"?

I didn't think his sarcoid was particulary big, about 50p sized, but it got bigger when it was treated and now it is about 1.5 inchs diametre.

 

[kerilli]

i get the bloodroot cream from my vet, you could give them a call - Fellowes Farm Equine Clinic. 0148 777 3333.
i have tried all sorts of things in the past, as my best ever horse (grey in my siggy) suffered really badly with sarcoids and i battled them for 9 years with her (lost her because of something else, ironically), have tried human anti-cancer drug injected directly into sarcoids (slowed them down, didn't get rid), freezing them, slicing them out, all sorts over the years. bloodroot's the best i've found.

 

[TPO]

Thank you. I'll try "suffocating" them for a while and if no joy then I'll speak to my vets about Blood root cream; if they can't help I'll phone your practice.

Sorry about your mare

I work for an oncology company and my MD was interested in the sarcoid treatment; he was very bemused that the indgredients/recipe for Liverpool Cream were secret. Sure I'd get staff discount if any of our products would help.

Why are things never easy. It would have been very helpful if the sarcoid was just gone

 

[kerilli]

thanks. bloodroot cream's not very expensive (about £30 for a small pot when i bought it, you only use a tiny bit every time though). i would be happy to put it on an 'open wound' type of sarcoid. it burns them off anyway, i think... you have to put vaseline around the area to protect the surrounding skin, if it's anywhere they might rub. my little mare had a small sarcoid on her face and i used it on that, i was worried it might make her rub it but she never did - no discomfort.
i am pretty sure the ingredients of bloodroot cream are listed on the pot, fwiw!

 

[mrussell]

Ive also successfully used bloodroot (thanks to kerilli!).... it burnt the sarcoid off in under a week. The skin underneath was healthy but I smeared camrosa on to seal it and some more tissue came away. The hair has come back and the sarcoids never returned.

 

[MardyMare]

I would be careful if treatment has only just finished. I knew nothing about these horrible things until the horse I have on loan came along. They were awful - all over her muzzle warty and some weepy. they even went into the corners of her mouth. I read everything I could about sarcoids and ended up on horse health website ordering some THuja tablets £6 for a months supply I ended up with 2 bottles in the end and some neem cream to smother over the area to make more comfortable when being ridden. The result in her case has been amazing - the hair has even 90% grown back over the area. I would never have thought such a small little tablet could do so much.

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

Please everyone be very careful treating TRUE sarcoids. So many suspicious looking lumps and scabby things are not sarcoids. A true sarcoid is a skin cancer. They are not separate living things like maggots and they cannot be "choked" of oxygen. They are just body cells where the dna has been damaged, so they get their oxygen and nutrients through the body's own blood supply, as all cells do. Be very very careful with Camrosa too and please read the leaflet carefully because I'm sure I read that they DON'T advise its use for true sarcoids. It is toxic and contains heavy metals so if you are applying it to new skin, you could cause more damage. That's why you have to wear rubber gloves and protect the area of skin around the target area. Thuja cream at 30c potency has worked for me on a couple of other dodgy patches Sunny had but I will never know if they were true sarcoids or if any soothing cream would have helped! Anything you can do to boost the horse's immune system will be good. There is a suspected link between flies and a transmitted virus that leads to sarcoids so keep flies away where possible. The fly link fits with areas on the horse where flies are attracted: sarcoids often appear around sensitive tissues such as sheaths and muzzles and faces. Any area that regularly suffers minor rubs will also attract the flies and Sunny's sarcoid (?) was directly under where a part of the cheek piece of his bridle went. I sewed sheepskin over it while the skin was healing. I would certainly go with the vaseline option simply because it will protect the skin underneath from all sorts of environmental nasties, hopefully while the skin heals.

If anyone needs to know about sarcoids and how to best help a horse with them, you cannot do any better than to read Prof Knottenbelt's definitive fact sheet on them. I think it's liverpool.ac.uk/sarcoids but if you google sarcoids you'll find it there.

 

[LCobby]

http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine/facilities/laser.htm

diode laser treatment is the latest deveopment

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
Be very very careful with Camrosa too and please read the leaflet carefully because I'm sure I read that they DON'T advise its use for true sarcoids. It is toxic and contains heavy metals so if you are applying it to new skin, you could cause more damage. That's why you have to wear rubber gloves and protect the area of skin around the target area.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've had success and failure with Camrosa; a mare of mine had a very sore and bloody sarcoid (vet said it was one) on the corner of her eye and Camrosa got rid of it. It made another sarcoid on another horse angrier. I don't believe Camrosa is toxic at all though. I've never used gloves when applying it and Tia got a list of ingredients and there was nothing nasty in it at all but I do agree that it doesn't always work and it CAN make a sarcoid worse.

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

PF - it IS toxic! It has heavy metals in it! A couple of applications without gloves on won't kill you but long term exposure is NOT recommended. If you do some fairly basic poking about on the internet, you will see that there was a challenge through the courts a couple of years back. Someone had asked whether Camrosa contained any toxic substances. They denied it but a subsequent court case forced them to admit it DID. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there isn't a place for aggressive substances, eg weedkillers etc but I worry that used in the wrong hands at the wrong time, both horses and owners could be harmed.

 

[PapaFrita]

Feeeeck! So how can they get away with listing innocuous ingredients and insisting it's all harmless stuff? I'm almost afraid to Google now!

 

[Tia]

Lol! There's no more heavy metals in Camrosa than there is naturally in the body - don't worry, PF is quite safe

. The case was not a court case, it was the Advertising Standards Commission; about advertising - it was deemed that Camrosa was advertising incorrectly, so they changed their advertising strategy.

If you want something really toxic with huge levels of heavy metals, then use Liverpool Cream - now you wouldn't want to touch that with your skin

. The biggest problem with the Liverpool Cream versus Camrosa, for the buyer who hasn't done their research, is understanding that these products are in DIRECT competition with one another, hence the bad mouthing that goes on, and it's particularly one-sided. I've never seen Camrosa Ltd rise to the provocations.

Go ahead and Google it! That's exactly what I did and I went down numerous routes; vet journals, reports, research papers of ingredients etc. until I had absorbed all of the information available ... that's why I am perfectly content with using it

.

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=39338

Read it carefully folks!

 

[Tinseltoes]

With Blood Root cream (about 70+ with Vat) you have to put vasaline around the surrounding skin.
Im currently using it on my coloured cob,who has this horrible Sarcoid!!

 

[hairycob]

I'd be worried about your Vet & the advice tehy are giving tbh. I have the same problem - last LC treatment finshed at the beginning of March & 1 scab is still well & truly stuck on. Naturally it's the one under the saddle! My Vet spoke to Liverpool for advice in June & were told that it must not be picked off as that could trigger regrowth, possibly more aggressive than before. I changed from my old Vet because of inappropriate treatment of a sarcoid that made it more aggressive (They took a biopsy on the first visit, I came home & did less than 5 miniutes googling before I realised this was not a good idea! Sarcoid trebled in size in less than 3 weeks then fell off. I know have a nice crop of small fibroblastic sarcoids that may well be malevolent in that area.

). I hadn't been entirely happy with other stuff & this was the final straw.

 

[Lollii]

I tried Camrosa then thuja tablets & cream, it made the sarcoid worse, it came up in red, angry looking lumps, so I decided to leave it for the summer, I smothered it in sudocream to keep the flies off and it now has all but disapeared, just a black circle, no lumps or warts at all.

 

[TPO]

Just seen this has been bumped up 9mths later! lol

Re the horse I was posting about, the scab came off and the tissue underneath scabbed up and then came off. The skin healed over and it didn't reoccur.

I didn't put any cream on it, found out a lot more about sarcoids and changed vets!

Thanks for your replies

 

[Wilsocl]

I'd be worried about your Vet & the advice tehy are giving tbh. I have the same problem - last LC treatment finshed at the beginning of March & 1 scab is still well & truly stuck on. Naturally it's the one under the saddle! My Vet spoke to Liverpool for advice in June & were told that it must not be picked off as that could trigger regrowth, possibly more aggressive than before. I changed from my old Vet because of inappropriate treatment of a sarcoid that made it more aggressive (They took a biopsy on the first visit, I came home & did less than 5 miniutes googling before I realised this was not a good idea! Sarcoid trebled in size in less than 3 weeks then fell off. I know have a nice crop of small fibroblastic sarcoids that may well be malevolent in that area.

). I hadn't been entirely happy with other stuff & this was the final straw.

Hi jus wondering if you remember how long it took sarcoid scab to eventually come off? My mare has one that was treated with LC start of July. It has started to curl around the edges but still well and truly stuck on in middle like yours was. It’s right in the middle of her belly where her girth would be so just curious how much longer she’s likely to be out of work. Thanks

 

[TPO]

This thread is from 15yrs ago so I can't remember exactly, sorry.

The initial vet practice mucked it up big time. Their advice was all wrong and they'd applied the cream incorrectly and inconsistently.

I did change practice and they retreated with Liverpool Cream.

I can't remember the exact timing but because the first treatment was done wrong it angered the initial area and new, bigger plaque sarcoid appeared on the mares inner thigh.

New vets treated it and original sarcoids. They all got angry and inflamed, thr mare ended up on danolin.

The second treatment was successful and they all came off. This must have been spring 2009ish

I lost the mare in 2010 and they hadn't reappeared ar that point.

 

[meleeka]

Hi jus wondering if you remember how long it took sarcoid scab to eventually come off? My mare has one that was treated with LC start of July. It has started to curl around the edges but still well and truly stuck on in middle like yours was. It’s right in the middle of her belly where her girth would be so just curious how much longer she’s likely to be out of work. Thanks

I’d ask your vet. Im sure the one mine had came off quicker than that, although it was also a while ago.

 

[Wilsocl]

Thanks for your replies. I send photos every fortnight but they just keep saying it looks like it’s still working on it. I’ll just have to be patient