Sarcoid treatment (videos)

ycbm

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He takes it too far in the third one. 'A horse with sarcoids has no value' 'A horse with sarcoids needs treatment'.

The first is incorrect, the second far from universally true.

They are interesting videos for anyone who doesn't know about sarcoids though. I'm surprised that being recent there was no mention that foot canker also has bovine papilloma associated with it and is therefore probably another type of sarcoid.


Please read my disclaimer below before reading this next bit.


I've just taken three off the ventral line of my appaloosa's belly which he popped out last week. I used, as I always do, copper sulphate crystals applied for several days. I've been doing this for twenty seven years now on every type of sarcoid, and never once had a failure, and only once had to repeat a previous removal when I wasn't bold enough the first time. This isn't spontaneous remission like he mentions in the video, it burns them out chemically and leaves a hole. It's not for the faint hearted or those with insurance. But it doesn't hurt them like Liverpool cream, they don't mind having it applied, and it costs a few pence. I'll admit that it frustrates the hell out of me that vet after vet has told me the result is as good or better than with Liverpool cream yet nobody is interested in researching it.
 

ycbm

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I realise the risks of posting this, but people are mucking about with stuff of the internet anyway, so I figure it's better, if they aren't going to get a vet to treat sarcoids, to know about something which works. Of course you should get a vet involved, and of course I take no responsibility if you don't. If you try this, you try it your own risk. And there are big risks if you start and chicken out.

I also thought people who don't want to do it might still find it interesting.

It goes without saying, I guess, that I'm spitting feathers that my appaloosa has developed them when he had none when I bought him. And he was to replace a QHx who was riddled with the darned things when I bought him and I had cleared them all.

So I just want to show people what the reality of dealing with sarcoids with copper sulphate is. Basically, don't start unless you are very bold, happy to pick scabs off bloody wounds, and prepared to see it through. But if you were going to get thuja or other cream off the internet, this is cheaper and as effective as Liverpool cream.

This sarcoid pictured started as a little pip six days ago. It was covered with sudocrem to make it sticky, and copper sulphate crystals stuck on. That pip came out easily after two days, but it left a ring of live tumour cells around the edge that are now cross, and they are filling it back in every one to two days. This is the third time for the front one, and I will keep packing the hole with copper sulphate until it gives up filling back in.

It's wet now, so no need for sudocrem except to soften it to pull the new growth out of the hole. It's likely to reach half an inch across before I've got it all. The back one is a day behind and skin two came off yesterday. When it heals there will barely be a mark with this type. The irregular flat ones can spread to a very big area where the virus is just under the skin. Biggest one I've seen was the size of my whole hand once the infected skin sloughed off the inside of a hind leg. Even with twenty seven years experience, that was frightening.

I find the circular nature of them when they pop out very sinister, and it's a pretty clear indication you've got a sarcoid and not something harmless like a fly bite scar.

Cut through, this one had skins like an onion and was very, very tough to saw through. To think it only took thirty hours or so to grow is awesome and a bit frightening.







 
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AnShanDan

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He takes it too far in the third one. 'A horse with sarcoids has no value' 'A horse with sarcoids needs treatment'.

The first is incorrect, the second far from universally true.
Seriously loses credibility for me by saying anything like that. I do know what a well respected vet he is too.

Sarcoids are so common that to say that their presence makes a horse with one without value is total nonsense. I personally know of many horses, some competing at top levels, with a sarcoid or two.

Anyone might think he is making money out of referrals.
 

Adina

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Recent research in USA is using Immunocidin . This was originally for cancer in dogs but getting good results with sarcoids in horses. I would like to try it here in the UK. Does anyone have any information on importing to UK (to be administered by Vet). Also VLPs are being used to treat cancer in dogs, might they be used in horses?
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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For me, a horse with sarcoids has no value as I would never have another. The ish that I had, had a huge level 4 sarcoid, yes it was removed with Liverpool cream but I'd walk straight past a horse that had one these days.
So, I tend to agree with the Prof :)
 

ycbm

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For me, a horse with sarcoids has no value as I would never have another. The ish that I had, had a huge level 4 sarcoid, yes it was removed with Liverpool cream but I'd walk straight past a horse that had one these days.
So, I tend to agree with the Prof :)
Of course it has a value. You wouldn't buy it, for a reduction of about £1000, I would.

How did yours get to be a huge level four? I've only ever seen one, and that was only the size of a small egg.
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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Of course it has a value. You wouldn't buy it, for a reduction of about £1000, I would.

How did yours get to be a huge level four? I've only ever seen one, and that was only the size of a small egg.
It erupted over 3 days from a 2cm slightly raised (about 2mm) flat patch just below ribs, and within a week was a nasty horrid mess about 4cm diameter and hanging 6cm out like an exploded mushroom, with horrid bits like a shredded dog pad across the bulb, which oozed, this was in late January. By end April the huge hole from using the Liverpool cream (the sarcoid sloughed off about 3-4 weeks after cream applied) started to close.

One of 'those thing's, but hence any sign of a sarcoid on anything since that horse, I wouldn't take a horse with one again, my choice.
 

ycbm

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They are frightening when they are that aggressive. Thankfully quite rare.

I think my boy's two are out for the count. Just a wait now for the holes to close, hopefully
 

Rob1585

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Just as a gentle reminder, it is illegal to treat a horse unless you’re a vet or it’s a minor first aid procedure (veterinary surgeons act). If you do treat your horses sarcoids by chemically burning them off (which will be painful), you could end up in a sticky situation, especially if it goes wrong!!
 

DabDab

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Just as a gentle reminder, it is illegal to treat a horse unless you’re a vet or it’s a minor first aid procedure (veterinary surgeons act). If you do treat your horses sarcoids by chemically burning them off (which will be painful), you could end up in a sticky situation, especially if it goes wrong!!
I'm pretty sure there is an exemption for owners.... Though I could have remembered that wrong.... As long as you're not cutting a blood vessel or something similar.....
 

Rob1585

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You’re correct, there is an exemption for minor medical treatments and surgery by the owner. However the treatment of cancer by chemical cautery probably doesn’t fit under a minor procedure. The other law is the animal welfare act where you are not allowed to permit through action or inaction suffering to an animal. Just think if things went wrong and you left the horse in pain, could you justify to a jury why you did it yourself rather than getting a vet out.
 

ycbm

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You’re correct, there is an exemption for minor medical treatments and surgery by the owner. However the treatment of cancer by chemical cautery probably doesn’t fit under a minor procedure.
I think a lawyer could make a very good case that removing a small pip or occult sarcoid was minor surgery. And while it is cancer, removal at an early stage is no different from removing a wart, and I've removed several with wart remover in previous years when people called them angleberries or warts.


The other law is the animal welfare act where you are not allowed to permit through action or inaction suffering to an animal. Just think if things went wrong and you left the horse in pain, could you justify to a jury why you did it yourself rather than getting a vet out.
Why would anyone leave the horse in pain if things went wrong? That's a completely different issue.
 

Adina

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Professor Knottenbelt does say that if sarcoids were on dogs more research would have been done. There is more research on cancer in dogs. Immunocidin has been used to treat cancer in dogs and is now available for horses in the USA. As it is well tolerated, no burning or caustic agent involved, I would like to try it. It appears that I will have to go on dog forums to get more information.
 

ycbm

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Professor Knottenbelt does say that if sarcoids were on dogs more research would have been done. There is more research on cancer in dogs. Immunocidin has been used to treat cancer in dogs and is now available for horses in the USA. As it is well tolerated, no burning or caustic agent involved, I would like to try it. It appears that I will have to go on dog forums to get more information.
I'm not sure he's right. Because most horses that have a sarcoid or two have absolutely no problem with them for the rest of their lives. It's very much the exceptions that become dangerous. I only remove them because they'll knock the value down if I ever want to sell, or if they are where tack will rub. If dogs similarly got a little round lump, spot, or discoloured circle in the hair which caused no trouble at all, why would lots of money be ploughed into research?

I'm afraid the fact is the Prof Knottenbelt has made a career out sarcoids, on the way scaring people about what is usually a very low grade form of skin cancer, which is usually dealt with perfectly OK by the horse. He's single handedly done more to reduce the value of any horse carrying one than anyone else on the planet.
 

KautoStar1

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Having a horse that has to go in for a second lot of laser surgery having just grown about 6 sarcoids in recent months having been free of them for about 4 years I would tend to agree that horses with sarcoids are worthless, from a financial perspective at least. I'm about £4k down from treatments. He's a lovely boy and I will do all I can to help him BUT I would never buy a horse with sarcoids. They are a dreadful condition. I would also never self treat. I would never self treat myself for a cancer why would I self treat my horse. These things require specialist attention.
 

ycbm

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But KS worthless to you does not mean worthless in the market. And Knottenbelt is saying that they are worthless in the market which is clearly complete nonsense. And advanced eventer or GP dressage horse with one sarcoid that it's had for years is still worth many thousands of pounds. I happily bought a four grand horse with them for two grand. Knottenbelt has devastated the value of horses with sarcoids for those needing to sell them and those of us who will buy them, though luckily for the latter.

The fact is that the vast majority of single sarcoids never cause any trouble at all. For your bad one, I can point to six horses of my own where I removed them with no issues, two friends with them removed with no difficulty by vets one with laser, one with chemo, and another which has had a ball type one in her armpit for the entire nineteen years I've known her, smaller each year.

Many women will die with breast cancer, with a ductal carcinoma in situ that never develops. Many horses will likewise die with a sarcoid which never develops.

Knottenbelt is technically correct but scaremongering. His organisation makes a lot of money from it, assessing sarcoids and selling chemotherapy.
 
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madmav

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Interesting stuff, thanks. I had a horse with sarcoids, dangerously near girth. Sort of cured via a cream also used on humans for skin cancer. This guy talks a lot of sense. Back in the day, sarcoids was rarely heard of. Now it seems too common. More research needed.
 

ycbm

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Interesting stuff, thanks. I had a horse with sarcoids, dangerously near girth. Sort of cured via a cream also used on humans for skin cancer. This guy talks a lot of sense. Back in the day, sarcoids was rarely heard of. Now it seems too common. More research needed.
They were heard of all the time. They were called angleberries or warts.

The Irish still don't make the fuss about them that the British now do.

There are an untold number of harmless sarcoids, nowhere near tack, being removed just in case they change in future, or in case the owner wants to sell the horse some time. The best vets are the ones who are saying 'watch it carefully and if it changes at all we'll take it off'.


I keep hearing comparisons made with skin cancer in humans. There is a direct comparison, but it's not the one people are making. I am a high skin cancer risk and any of my many moles may prove to be cancerous at any time. I've had two removed so far, but they don't take them off until they change.
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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ycbm, its fine for you to have your opinion on this, but its getting a tad repetitive with you negating anyones responses that do not agree with your thinking m'dear.
Please, allow yourself some slack & agree to disagree :)

As you say in your sig, its your view. Some people have other - perhaps opposing - views, but are not so strident or negative towards yours.
 

ycbm

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ycbm, its fine for you to have your opinion on this, but its getting a tad repetitive with you negating anyones responses that do not agree with your thinking m'dear.
Please, allow yourself some slack & agree to disagree :)

As you say in your sig, its your view. Some people have other - perhaps opposing - views, but are not so strident or negative towards yours.

The last poster made a new point which needed answering. They have never been rare. And as long as people make new points then I will answer with new answers.

I understand what you are saying but I am sick of the scare mongering frightening owners out of their wits with the big C word and very, very extreme pictures That last video of Knottenbelt's is dreadful.
 
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Tiddlypom

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ycbm, its fine for you to have your opinion on this, but its getting a tad repetitive with you negating anyones responses that do not agree with your thinking m'dear.
Please, allow yourself some slack & agree to disagree :)

As you say in your sig, its your view. Some people have other - perhaps opposing - views, but are not so strident or negative towards yours.
Fully agree with this.

A horse with sarcoids has no market value as far as I am concerned. I would never buy one.
 

ihatework

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They certainly have a market value, no doubt about that surely?
What they have is a reduced market - there will be a % of buyers who will not purchase irrespective of how good the horse is.
There would be a % if buyers who would purchase at a heavily reduced price.
There are a % of buyers who couldn’t care less and will take the gamble for an otherwise good horse.
 

KautoStar1

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My horse had a couple of the small flat hairless ones when I bought him - he was and still is a lovely stamp of an ID - so I considered his price, temperament etc and decided he was worth a punt. He himself has turned out to be a fabulous horse who has taken me to places I never thought I'd ever achieve. However, he has been plagued by these wretched things. The couple he had when I bought him stayed dormant for about 5 years and then he suddenly grew a tumour like one on his sheath which grew quickly and so had to be removed. He had also grown more of the flat hairless ones up in his groin, so on top of the two that he had when I bought him, he'd developed about 7 or 8. All were removed at the same time as the sheath one. He recovered well and went onto have a very successful show career.

About 6 months ago, a few more of the flat hairless ones appeared in the groin area and two very small under the skin bumps between his bottom cheeks. They weren't doing anything so were on the watch list. However suddenly he developed a tumour style one on his stifle area which grew quickly and burst. As this one started to grow aggressively so did the others that had sprouted and lay dormant. Clearly this horse is not able to self regulate.

He will have another round of surgery very shortly at huge expense. I will have to find the money. How can I not, he is a fit and healthy lovely horse. But his life has been interrupted by sarcoids and I fully expect he will grow more in old age, very possibly internal ones. Next time I may have to make the decision to PTS.

They are a potentially devastating skin condition for horse and owner and anyone who things otherwise really hasn't had to deal with them in their full horror.

Because I've dealt with my horses ones quickly they haven't got to a stage where they are a welfare issue. The surgeon I use (not Prof K or any of his team) has seen many many horrific cases. They are not to be underestimated.
 

ihatework

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KS - is anyone disputing that? When sarcoids go wrong they do so spectacularly. It’s miserable for the horse and expensive for the owner.

BUT what percentage of horses with sarcoids have major issues? I don’t know the answer but I’d suspect less than one might think. When you have had to deal with a specific issue then it is natural response that it’s a big no no!

Everyone has their own hang ups and attitudes to risk, partly shaped by their own experiences.

What I can categorically say though is sarcoid horses do have a market value - if they didn’t they would never be sold and I can guarantee you sarcoid horses change hands for money (sometimes huge prices) every day of the week!
 

be positive

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KS - is anyone disputing that? When sarcoids go wrong they do so spectacularly. It’s miserable for the horse and expensive for the owner.

BUT what percentage of horses with sarcoids have major issues? I don’t know the answer but I’d suspect less than one might think. When you have had to deal with a specific issue then it is natural response that it’s a big no no!

Everyone has their own hang ups and attitudes to risk, partly shaped by their own experiences.

What I can categorically say though is sarcoid horses do have a market value - if they didn’t they would never be sold and I can guarantee you sarcoid horses change hands for money (sometimes huge prices) every day of the week!
I have had, surprisingly considering how many horses I have had through the yard, very little experience of sarcoids, from memory I bought one with a couple many years ago, they were frozen, at the time it was common, the last was cut out under sedation, he was sold on so no idea whether they came back.
The second a livery, homebred with no signs of any until she moved area, they were treated with LC while they were tiny, she stayed clear of them.

The third also a livery purchased with a few tiny ones, they were treated successfully at home, he was a quality horse bought at half his value by my client, he had originally changed hands from his breeders again for well under his value and later sold by my client for less than he would have been but he still had a decent value because he did a job and was still desirable to the right buyer.
In many ways it is something that is obvious and anyone buying can make an informed decision and decide whether the benefits outweigh the risk, unlike the many other conditions that horses may have hidden away and do not get picked up on a vetting, I would consider buying one with them if it was priced right and ticked all the boxes, so I don't think they have no value, there are many other conditions I would be less willing to gamble on but maybe that is because my experiences have not been really negative. out of hundreds through my hands to have had only 2 with them is possibly unusual and makes me wonder if it is something that comes in clusters or areas for some reason.
 

KautoStar1

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I don't disagree IHW in what you say about some market value and risk association. as you say much is based on personal experience. I'm sure there are quite a few sarcoid horses changing hands for high sums. I would imagine those are bought and sold by people who can afford to take those risks and on horses that are high performers.
I also don't know what %age of horses with sarcoids have major issues. The problem is the unpredictability of sarcoids. They can be dormant for years and then suddenly go wild.

There just seems to be a view from certain people that they are nothing to be concerned about. I personally disagree with that. However, I am also of the view that some times they are acceptable to be left alone until a point when they become active. My own experiences of removal have involved laser, which I think is the most effect and speedy method. But as with any surgery, the best result is based on the skill of the surgeon. I certainly wouldn't self medicate. But as with human medicine, I would seek out specialist treatment from experts in the field of sarcoids.
 
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