schooling, submission? different RI methods

NeverSayNever

NeverSayNever

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would be grateful for any thoughts on this -

2 different flatwork instructors at my RC have totally different teaching styles and methods and although Im fairly sure in my own mind which style is right for us and I also think we can take aspects from both, Im still not 100% sure.

Background - new horse, 15hh connemara, 10 years old, had him since June. Came from Ireland having been there and done that. He is a fabulous lad, great to jump, can be nappy to hack alone (very nappy) and Ive been struggling to get him to work into a consistent contact when schooling. On my own with him, I tend to end up giving in as we are battling so much I feel bad.

RI A focuses on rhythm and balance but doesnt offer any instruction about what to do with my hands really. In a lesson with this RI this week by the end, horse was going really nicely. To get to that point we did a lot of slowing the trot right down then pushing forward, walk trot transitions and focusing on him responding to my leg (which he likes to ignore). RI had me give him 6 smacks at one point which sent us careering across school BUT after that he paid attention and went more off my leg, engaged the hind quarters, came between hand and seat and worked round, although not in the most secure contact. However..... I do find it is hit or miss and if he isnt in the mood no matter how much schooling like this I do, we stay in yak mode.

RI B (jane rutherford) took one look at him and said he is a well educated horse who is keeping secrets and taking the pi&&. Which I knew, lol. She started out making sure we had a consistent rhythm and energy and then very logically worked through a set of instructions. First thing was to fix outside hand near the wither like a side rein and tickle fingers on the rein to ask him to lower his poll. Inside rein was to be used like a bungee asking for the poll to flex to the inside. Horse faught and faught and argued and argued, the sweat poured off me, I almost collapsed in a heap. she told me to keep going, that i was doing the right thing, to not feel guilty and that this was the worst it would be. That is all attitude and I am asking the right questions and he is choosing to say no and not submitt. Eventually he submitted and worked round and we had a secure contact and he went really nicely. Jane says she thinks getting him to submitt in the school will help with the napping hacking on his own, which makes total sense. She also thinks I should school in spurs.

cookies to those who got this far. Any thoughts on either method? Certainly with RI A I was barely sweating and with Jane I was nearly on the floor, however my gut feeling is that now she has confirmed he really knows what Im asking and Im not doing anything wrong, that given his backward thinking nature, it would be beneficial to develop a relationship with him where he does as I say, lol, not just because I ask nicely and cajole.
 
I wouldn't say either method is wrong, and would' as you say take from both. Without seeing it first hand it is difficult to say. However, I am leaning toward instructor B, it sounds like she has got his measure from what you say :)

I know what you mean about feeling guilty having to be so strong with him, but its no good being nicey nice all the time if he ends up having no respect for you.
 
Neither instructor sounds excellent IMO. If I was you I would invest in a few lessons from a good classical trainer. A good instructor will help you get to where you want to be without the use of so much force.

Holding a horse in place until it submits it isn't going to create genuine lightness, it may create the illusion of self carriage but natural carriage is not going to be achieved by those means any more than it would be with the use of draw reins.
 
In my day it was leg, leg, leg!!!! Now" it seems hand, hand, hand. Totally wrong imo. Do you want a partnership with this horse or would you be happy being a dictator?
 
Difficult to say from a description, but if the horse is not responding to the leg this is the only thing you should be working on and you shouldn't worry about the contact for now. Holding him down with the hands is unlikely to help from what you describe.
 
Booboos said:
Difficult to say from a description, but if the horse is not responding to the leg this is the only thing you should be working on and you shouldn't worry about the contact for now. Holding him down with the hands is unlikely to help from what you describe.
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thanks for the thoughts, hmm booboos that was what i was thinking before these lessons i had, both this week. All Ive been trying to work on for past few weeks is getting him off my leg, RI A said Id almost got him too forward and it was all running out the front end, which is where we ended up working on slowing the trot etc. I see now that that is teaching me that off the leg isnt about speed but forward with energy. However after we did that and began walk-trot transitions he began to switch off again and ignore the leg.


Jane, the 2nd RI is very well respected as a coach and wasnt getting me to hold his head down as such, maybe i didnt explain it very well, she said we had enough forward energy, he was balaned , he was in a rhythm (we established that first) but he needed to soften at the poll. She was getting me to hold and support with the outside rein, and ask for inside flexion with inside rein, like holding hands on a bungee , an elastic contact.
Im not sure if I should stick with going to lessons with both and try and take aspects from both or choose one and be consistent with the method.

im not that into flatwork,can you tell? although im trying very hard to like it!
 
team barney said:
Neither instructor sounds excellent IMO. If I was you I would invest in a few lessons from a good classical trainer. A good instructor will help you get to where you want to be without the use of so much force.

Holding a horse in place until it submits it isn't going to create genuine lightness, it may create the illusion of self carriage but natural carriage is not going to be achieved by those means any more than it would be with the use of draw reins.
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Agree with above.
 
blazingsaddles said:
In my day it was leg, leg, leg!!!! Now" it seems hand, hand, hand. Totally wrong imo. Do you want a partnership with this horse or would you be happy being a dictator?
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interesting. well its a fine line isnt it? of course I want a partnership, but someone in that partnership has to be in charge. A partnership always has to be weighted one way, or the judge woudlnt be looking for obedience and submission. I realise there are different ways of achieving this, which is what Im musing over. I understand also that we are not comparing apples with apples here but when Im training a dog, once I know they fully understand a command I ask once and expect obedience. Have to say also, there was lot of 'leg leg leg' in that lesson too ;)

Does anyone know Pam Miller? SHe also comes to my RC to teach so there is a chance I could try a lesson with her also but not sure what her methods are like?
 
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If he is anything like my connie you have to work with him and getting forcefull will get you no where in the school, napping out hacking and other situations you need to be forcefull but if you want him to work with you in the school you have to ask not tell. It has taken me quite a long time to establish the relationship to get him to work for me in the school and he will still try it on if hes not in the mood and go round like a beach donkey, these days are getting less frequent and at shows he seems to know he has to pull it out the bag. It may be diffrent for you and your boy as he is older and expiereanced where as mine is young and green and we have had to work through some previous issues. You will progress but it has to be with you working together not forcing him or he may start to throw his toys out the pram.

I would have some more lessons with both to see how you progress and which lessons you get the most out of before you decide but dont be swayed by the big name as its not how others get on with them its which one can offer you and your horse the most.
 
i think you aready know the answer, any ri who uses abuse to get a horse to work should be binned, hitting horses and using force has no part in education.

there should be no sweat, and the horse should be working not you, your job is to ride to the best of your ability and be patient use your own sense to make a plan of work to solve the problems and earn the attention and respect of the horse.

team barney says it all
 
I'd say you need a combination of the 2 approaches. My RI says the outside rein is for turning and the inside rein achieves flexion and the contact should be elastic, but you have to be riding well into the bridle, so leg first, hand second. Some horses don't really 'do' submission and by trying to get them to submit you end up with a fight on your hands; with my horse, it's all about coaxing, but I DO have a mare. I suppose you have to see which your horse responds best to and go with that.
If that makes sense?
 
If the horse is not relaxing his jaw.. the "tickling" or vibration of the rein can really make a difference..

Agree I wouldn't use a fixed hand to gain submission.. Would highly reccommend the Philippe Karl DVD's .. 1 & 2

It is worth remembering the old masters saying "hands without legs and legs without hands"

Connies are CLEVER .. ;) and do agree that the cleverer neds can take the micky somewhat and that establishing the partnership in the school will make a huge difference to the hacking and napping.
 
connemaras have in their ancestry andalusian, and many part bred andalusian horses are very intellegent they also move one way when uneducated which can lead you to believe they are not big movers, but can change beyond belief and move very big when given the gentle,long training needed to physically prepare them, i don't see them suitable for driving continental seat, and maybe you could look for and intructor who has more empathy to their different needs, connemaras can perform good dressage and they are a bit like the andalus in they they are often get too fat easily which does'nt help, quiet lateral work will liberate your horse.
 
The fact you are even asking about this says to me you are not happy with either. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with either of the RI's you have used. Just that they are not right for you and your horse.

I'd see if you could go and watch other instructors teaching to see if you like their style.
 
tristar said:
i think you aready know the answer, any ri who uses abuse to get a horse to work should be binned, hitting horses and using force has no part in education.

there should be no sweat, and the horse should be working not you, your job is to ride to the best of your ability and be patient use your own sense to make a plan of work to solve the problems and earn the attention and respect of the horse.

team barney says it all
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I don't agree with this at all. No sweat?? Or effort expended??? What horses do you ride I'd love one :D

All my horses I have had to work with in one issue or another, my gelding is a fan of going over bent and heavy and rushing when you ask him to carry himself and not use my hand to do it, on the other hand you let him do his own thing and the head goes in the air and we get nowhere. So how without sweat and effort are we going to resolve this??

OP I wouldn't fix the hands but agree with getting him listening to you, and forwards off the leg and also keeping at him until the pissntaking stops, horses will only do as much work they can get away with, they are not stupid, well all those I have ever sat on haven't been lol :D

I would maybe have a chat wit both RIs aout the methods used, I always did with my RI so I understood what was being asked of us and if I was finding it hard was I maybe doing it correctly.
 
i breed break and train my own horses, mainly tres sangres the spanish hotblood and tb's

as mere uneducated mortal i stand by what i said, and leave it to words of Baucher:' put on bedroom slippers'' and nuno oliveira 'try to ride all horses, without exception using the reins and the legs with the utmost gentleness and the least effort, We must not be deceived by the apparently rapid results obtained by the use of violence. only rational gymnastics will solve any problems.'
 
I would give him a season's hunting and make life fun for him. I'd focus on getting him going forwards properly and worry about his head position and bend once you establish that.
 
As an amateur rider of moderate ability who has gone through a few instructors trying to find the "right way" these are my thoughts.

I wouldn't follow Phillippe Karl (French Classical) not because what he is saying is wrong exactly because obviously he gets great results but because hardly anyone teaches in this way which is very diffrenet to other methods and in my experience it can totally cock up your whole riding.

You would be better with someone teaching Spanish Classical. I also do not totally agree that you should not worry at all about the contact and just get the horse moving forward because 1) a horse that goes around with its head in the air is hollow and 2) It is likely to be unbalanced 3) A horse that is not submitting to you (not just your hands) is a horse that is not in your control - very important in nappy and spooky situations.

You've only had the horse a couple of months and I expect your position and balance needs working on just as much as the horses response to you - I can say this because I've recently been learning a lot about my own lack of body control from my TTT instructor. :D My horse is backward thinking and suffers really badly from attention deficit disorder but my lack of balance was causing him to slow whenever I asked him to be more forward. :(

Out of the two RI A sounds like she is not into quick fixes and more akin to classical trained the other sounds more like the German method which didn't work at all for me. However not once have you mentioned what they taught you about yourself, your balance, how you sit, how you help or impede the horse and what you need to work on and the instructor who focuses more on you than just getting results from the horse is the one I would go for.
 
sussexbythesea said:
You would be better with someone teaching Spanish Classical. I also do not totally agree that you should not worry at all about the contact and just get the horse moving forward because 1) a horse that goes around with its head in the air is hollow and 2) It is likely to be unbalanced 3) A horse that is not submitting to you (not just your hands) is a horse that is not in your control - very important in nappy and spooky situations.
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Sorry to be pedantic but thats not actually what I said. What I said was make the horse going forwards into the contact a priority and then start to refine it. It doesn't matter how much submission from the hands you have, if you're not actually going forwards and the horse going off the leg, its not going to do you a lot of good. Going backwards at speed IMHO is more dangerous than going forwards at speed.
 
what is Spanish classical? Spanish and Portuguese equitation has it's foundations in the French school fwiw, not many people teaching doma vaquera here either. I would agree though that following PK through books/DVDs probably isnt the way to go unless you have alot of experience.

from the descriptions given I would err on the side of the first instructor-there's no point in holding in the front end until horse is off your leg, balanced and relaxed and that sounds what she was trying to achieve. I also don't hold with the rider havng to work as hard as it sounded with the second RI-and fixing one or two hands will get your horse in a shape but a false one. it also just gives the horse something to lean on giving you another problem to fix down the line.
 
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