Science geeks/boffs et al.

[ester]

hho brought this up on my fb feed http://www.facebook.com/horseandhound

http://www.equistro.co.uk/ProdData/Fiche Equistro FLEXADIN UCII_1.pdf

and I am pondering if it is possible to collagen to a) make it to the small intestine and not be digested, b) cross the small intestine in-tact and make it to a joint

from the PDF 'Upon reaching the small intestine, UCII ’s novel interaction with the digestive tract is thought to explain its capacity to contribute to the continuing good health and mobility of the horse’s joints'

I want to know what the interaction is!

*and asks hho if there is a link to the clinical data

 

[TheMule]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Ah brilliant, the complete insanity of there 'science' is hilarious. I feel sorry for the suckers that waste their money on products like this

 

[ester]

not just me then but it's patented and everything!

 

[vallin]

Ok, so let's for a moment say it can be absorbed successfully and isn't just peed out...how does it actually aid the joint...?

 

[vallin]

and asks hho if there is a link to the clinical data [/QUOTE]

PS. one must member the PointTwo debacle, HHO does not endorse these products, it merely sells advertising space

Also whenever I've asked a magazine for an original source it has always failed to provide one, most recently cosmopolitan, why make interesting claims if you then refuse to provide the evidence to back them up (please note, it had nothing to do with porn, it was looking a neurological pathways relating to certain intimate activities, and I'm a neuroscientist see )

 

[ester]

it is a type II collagen, the main component of cartilage,

their selling point seems to be that their collagen isn't hydrolysed/denatured like other's is..

I cannot believe that it does not become so while heading through the digestive (being the key word) tract

 

[vallin]

it is a type II collagen, the main component of cartilage,

their selling point seems to be that their collagen isn't hydrolysed/denatured like other's is..

I cannot believe that it does not become so while heading through the digestive (being the key word) tract

Sorry, yes I realised that, but is the idea just to increase the amount that's bioavailable? And yes I agree re the second point.

 

[ester]

I replied before your neuro bit..

the idea..
you want there to be an idea... like a valid idea?

I note on their webby they like to include bioefficiency a lot, not necessarily bioavailability.

 

[vallin]

hmmmm. that is all.

 

[fburton]

Looks like pseudoscience to me.

 

[Persephone]

My vet told me that Chondroitin can't cross the ...... can't remember, but that the molecules are too large!

Is that the same kind of thing?

Numpty xx

 

[ester]

Hi numpty

in essence yes, although I don't think that the collagen will get to the small intestine in one piece to even try and cross!

 

[JFTDWS]

Looks like pseudoscience to me.

Ahh you're confusing "pseudoscience" with "nonscience" or as I like to call it, "nonsense"

I'll eat my hat if it is:

not degraded in the stomach
absorbed in the s/intestine
circulated in any meaningful manner
crosses into the synovial fluid / gets anywhere near the cartilage
does anything remotely useful when it gets there

 

[Foxhunter49]

[QUOTE

and I am pondering if it is possible to collagen to a) make it to the small intestine and not be digested, b) cross the small intestine in-tact and make it to a joint

I always thought a joint was from a plant? Wouldn't think the small intestine would have the same effect at all!

 

[ester]

I just had to read that 3 times ^^^

am far too innocent for my own good sometimes

 

[JFTDWS]

I just had to read that 3 times ^^^

am far too innocent for my own good sometimes

I was totally puzzled too - I think foxhunter's been smoking small intestine again!

 

[vallin]

Just as a possibly interesting point, do they do collagen injections? I know they've been used for children with CP and that sort of things...just a ponderance..

 

[5horses2dogsandacat]

I think that this product would be more useful than others in the past, big question is though does your horse really need what you are putting into it, if not like others have said it will be pee'd out.

Type II collagen I believe has a triple helix, this means it is easier to break down mainly in the stomach due to pepsin and then later in the intestine, I think by things called enterogastrones, mainly Gastric Inhibitory peplide.

Its been proven to help people with osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, here's link I used to double check, incase I had remembered wrong...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15818703

Persephone - what your vet said about chondroitin, I assume that contain collagen of a quarternary helical, which means its harder to break up....

Not sure if what Ive said makes sense but I think this is what I remember....

xx

 

[fburton]

Ahh you're confusing "pseudoscience" with "nonscience" or as I like to call it, "nonsense"

Heh! You could have a point there...!

 

[JFTDWS]

5h2dc - that link is to an article where they used t2 collagen as a biomarker as a diagnostic tool for oa - not using it as a treatment!

 

[fburton]

Its been proven to help people with osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, here's link I used to double check, incase I had remembered wrong...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15818703

That's an interesting paper. However, unless I am missing something obvious, it doesn't say anything about the use of Type II collagen therapeutically; rather it's about an assay (test) for degenerative changes in patients with osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, measuring breakdown products of Type II collagen in urine samples.

 

[EllieK]

I read that as an assay rather then therapeutic too. Collagen has been quite an interest for pharmaceutics and therapeutics over the last decade or so but its a bloomin nightmare to get it anywhere useful without injecting it directly to where you want it. So no, I doubt very much that any of that product gets anywhere close to a joint after giving it orally! Interesting 'science' presented too... hmm. I wouldn't waste my money...

 

[SpottedCat]

I expect it works best if you also wear a holographic band.

 

[Mike007]

And of course remember to take your Oxyshot,and wear your Eqiwinner patches

 

[jaquelin]

My understanding is the only effective joint treatment is for injections directly into the joint. I had hyuralonic acid +corticosteroid injections into my horse's hocks which seemed to help a lot. HOWEVER, the total cost was £900 + VAT and £600 of that was the cost of the drugs!
So what happens is that a supplement is marketed which is cheaper, but the delivery mechanism ( orally) is largely ineffective.
Like so many supplements - human & pet - pretty useless, passes straight through or broken down digestively and you end up with very expensive pee!

 

[little_critter]

Like so many supplements - human & pet - pretty useless, passes straight through or broken down digestively and you end up with very expensive pee!

Maybe this could be the next thing that KP could market....very expensive pee.
It would go brilliantly with the bling browbands and dead sheep!

 

[lazybee]

Like so many supplements - human & pet - pretty useless, passes straight through or broken down digestively and you end up with very expensive pee!

Halle bl**dy lujah But people will still buy it (not the pee, but you could be onto a winner)and swear by it, such is human nature. Look at how many on this forum alone bang on about supplements. Glucosamine and Chondroitin doesn't work and has been proven not to, but that won't stop people wasting their money.

Back to this pee what will the trade name be? Liquid Nitrogenous equine joint supplement perhaps? or Kurall P ?

 

[JFTDWS]

I like "kurall P". I think we could market that...

 

[Jesstickle]

Anything that uses the word 'undenatured' in it's blurb has to be a crock of horse poo surely?!

Undenatured, I ask you! What is wrong with native? There is a word that means this, why make up another one?

 

[weevil]

I expect it works best if you also wear a holographic band.

I was just thinking that
Being a bit sad (and bored) I just looked up the patent they refer to which seems to be primarily based on preparing chicken cartilage as a dietary supplement - with a note that the same technology can be applied to collagens.
Of course it is possible for the collagen to pass undigested into the intestine but I can't find any evidence that is is actually bioavailable or has any beneficial effect on the joints...