Scottish people--livery yard incidents

Cuffey

Cuffey

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I am looking for some help please

I need to know about ''things which go wrong'' on livery yards in Scotland

My list so far-- below--can you add to it, eg fence/gate problems, herd dynamics, lack of quarantine, welfare problems, safety--does your yard have fire safety plan, who calls vet in your absence, poo picking, ragwort, dangerous ground

1. YO did midnight flit abandoning full liveries.
2. Horse caught neck rug in barbed wire--hung
3. Horse spooked ran through barbed wire fence cut legs to shreds
4, Horse left overnight at a livery yard due to transport breakdown turned out with strange horses got serious kick to hock.
 
Well I'm only at a little tiny yard now- where I bought my boy from! - 2 liveries and the owner!
Currently issues there.
Roof has blown off when the guys have been in!
Electric wire jumpers- My boy included.
Been caught in wire!... UGH! NIGHTMARE!
My boy has knocked down a gate and a fence.
Quarantine is awful... (but there is only us now!) YAY!
Ragwort- seems to have an insane growth here, so in Summer it's a constant pick.
UBER POT HOLEY ROAD!!

Yard I moved to:

My dude broke the arena fence (via getting stuck in it)
TINY paddocks and miles away, surrounded by electric fencing.
He had laminatis and was hitting the roof- the fencing was never on as the battery was broken. My boy ended up inside 24/7 because he ran through the whole fence which was interconnected with everyone elses paddocks... Argh!
Horses always running off with owners - too much energy and too small paddocks.
Horses having to be turned out alone..

I've had a good time with yards though compared to others!!

All the best!
 
We had a strange incident a few years ago when a pony appeared to have been tied into the wire fencing - difficult to explain but basically 2 strands of wire were wrapped round his neck and knotted, don't see how he did it himself.
Everyone is encouraged to pick any ragwort they see, field is sprayed by owners then picked as needed.
Fields are harrowed and rotated, not poo picked
YO will call vet in emergency

Is this the kind of thing you need or more specific?
 
Anything really--including where it works well--ie proper contract in place which everyone sticks to, proper time spent in quarantine and introducing new horses to herd.

Sounds like loads of electric fencing is not effective in keeping some horses separate.

Really looking for places (no names) where YO just rents out and takes the money but perhaps maintenance poor, no real thought for horse welfare or horse and rider safety.

threeponies sounds like you have one of the better ones
 
Cuffey I could give you a whole list and go on for ages but interested to why you want to know and for what benefit and if your "research" will benefit those that are in this situation.
PM if you want.
 
Cuffey, my biggest bugbear is lying by staff/owners: I recently moved my boy from a BHS approved yard, the arena was un-usable, ie it had been dug up! The [advertised] good hacking was one quiet road two miles long, two miles back. So many people left that my pony had no one to talk to at night, owner refused to move him so he could be next to someone. [I suggested I should not be paying for facilities advertised but not available], I left.
The next yard had so many [unwritten rules] I had to leave, horse had not been out of his stable or groomed for four or five days of a seven day full livery, [ I took him out on one of the other days], he also had a kick mark when I got back, not examined [had a matted area which could have been blood] or mentioned by YO.
Told by one YM that isolation policy in operation for new horses [50% of horses got strangles after three sick horses were released into general herd.
Asked to pay more for fodder halfway through winter ...... now there are swings and roundabouts, but no control over wastage by horse owners meant a lot of extra fodder being thrown out. I know my boy gets about half what some people feed, but his real costs are £5.00 to £7.00 per week, NOT the £12.00 I was asked to pay [up from £10.00], [the cost of delivered haylage had not increased in three years]
I am now on a private yard where my forage costs have no margin added, I now pay almost one third of former yard, I realise this is very fortunate, but it shows you how much profit big yards can make on small horses.
These are all management issues and total untruths, not something one can check out. Not all yards have brilliant facilities, but some make no effort, just keep hiking the costs.
Turnout is a big factor in West of Scotland, and some don't make any effort to help, even if fields are always wet, they should have some suitable arrangement to allow horses time to buck and f@rt twice a week minimum.
OK this is a moan, not so much about incidents as about "marketing", not managing the facilities for the horse, but for the profit. A lot of owners see horses as an easy way of making money, they don't want to know about complaints or suggestions, the attitude is, if you don't like it, leave, we are not going to change, and they never will.
 
Health and Safety, taken in to account only when H&S inspector refuses to sign them off, and not before that.
The H&S [appointed] person,being a complete numptie, and the biggest H&S offender around.... the muck trailer accessed via a heavy portable ramp, so tractor driver [who can't see ramp], drives off with trailer,cue three falls on three separate occasions, the first involving a child was reported to Estate Owner, no action taken, typical management.
Electric wiring swinging in the wind [looks very amateurish ]must be unsafe, cue barrier tape, which we have to duck under to get in to tack room!
Broken fence rails, and nails, and worse, screw-nails sticking out, when railings splinter, arena harrowed once in six months [had a gutter right round it where horses trotted].
Fences so low that a child could step over them.
 
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ummmm not til you are a bit more upfront about why you want the info? any reason you arent willing to say?

Understand if you say its to do with issue you are having with a yard, but you do need to say what you are planning to do with the feedback surely?
 
No personal issues involved of any kind.

Livery Yard Licensing preliminary discussions with Scot Gov will be held shortly

So are there any particular problems peculiar to Scotland?

eg Lack of Winter turnout in the wetter areas not unique to Scotland but may need highlighting
Unless horses are in hard work it is not acceptable to have no turnout particularly youngsters who need exercise to make good bone.

My horses are at home, I dont get into yards very often but was asked to 'have a think about problems' from the welfare angle.
 
If a DIY yard, there should be a start time window and a finish time window, so that horses are mucked out every day, and fed more than once, unless ad lib hay. Really they should be checked twice a day. Water always available, also proper clean bedding.
Rugs removed daily for grooming, which is part of welfare check.
 
I can understand that sometimes grass needs to be saved in wet areas, esp with the wet winter we have just had (its why cattle are in in the winter, after all) and I think a lot of the overstocking with liveries for the acreage is partly to do with the fact that business rates get charged on the facilities whether or not full and so YOs stuff the stables full as much of the time as poss, not just to max profit but to pay the biz rates.

BUT I do think that a yard that doesnt offer at least some daily turnout in winter should have to provide at least some turnout in a manege or all weather surface which would enable the horse to stretch legs, roll etc. Even for an hour would be a lot better than nothing. A horsewalker is not a substitute IMO!

Of course then the question would be, what about the stallys who never go out, the competition horses who are 'too valuable' or 'too nutty' to be turned out...mmmm could get interesting.....:-)
 
Turnout has been a huge problem on the west coast this winter. I have a yard and try to turn out each day but we stable at night over the winter. My liveries all know that winter turn out means they don’t get 24hr turnout as early in the year as yards who don’t turn out over the winter as it does take longer for the grass to come through in fields that have been grazed over the winter. My thinking is that the horses are happier on this regime than with no winter turnout.

This winter however I have had to restrict turnout –our fields are so waterlogged they have had stretches of 4 -5 days when I haven’t been able to turn out. I don’t like doing this, my haylage bill has rocketed but I don’t have much choice. All horses do get on the walker or turned out in the indoor or outdoor school each day – it’s not ideal but it’s the best I can do in a difficult situation.

However I do also have two horses who are not allowed out – their owner won’t allow turn out as they are too valuable having been show jumped abroad. Sadly they are not worked either and just go on the walker twice a day or very occasionally the owner loose schools them. If livery yards are licensed would I, as the YO be at fault even though I am acting on the owners instructions and I don’t agree with their routine? (We do our best to ensure these horses are kept as happy and healthy as possible whilst still complying with the owners wishes).

Any legislation has to take into consideration individual circumstances and not apply a one rule fits all approach.
 
Cuffey, the problem with blanket legislation is as much about enforcement as anything.
It is relatively easy to lay down transportation rulings like time for rest, watering, haying, and this is enforceable by trained staff, a tachometer will record times, also driver work sheets are often available.
But how does one enforce things like turnout, it can only be done by Code of Practice, and if YO says,"we turn out an hour every day", how can this be verified.....it can't.
The BHS want to ban horse "sleepovers" inside trailers or lorries, but Driving Competitors regularly do this, it is safer and more comfortable than pens on a strange site, most sites have no stabling.
One practice I abhor is that of keeping stallions in a closed stable [top door shut] and confined most of the time, who can say that is stress free?
Another is use of sheep netting,so easy for a horse to get caught in.
Also general fence maintenance, to keep animals contained, but safely.
No barbed wire, ever.
Size of stabling: I have seen large horses in pony stabling, they stand diagonally or with heads out the door.
Ventilation, should be 12 air changes per hour, if memory serves me.
Natural light, roof lights should be 10% of floor area, if similar to cattle sheds.
Construction, I recently went looking at available stabling, there were horses kept in some sort of container/portacabin the urine had no place to go, no ventilation, it stank!
I suppose there are size restrictions for farm animals [eg battery hens], and for zoo animal, horses being so sensitive, they need protection against owners.
Many owners seem unable to keep stabling clean, they smell, and we know this cannot be comfortable for sensitive animals.
Re rates for stabling, this should be on number of stables, not floor area, as this encourages small stables.
Shoeing, I believe there is legislation "pro" shoeing, but many people are now barefoot, this cannot be "wrong" it is all about management and balancing the work and other factors.
 
Livery Yard Licencing ... presumably to be enforced by Local Authority staff, this will be a joke, another way of adding to costs, and collecting rates, sorry, but at the moment the LA will look round and do nothing, they are not capable of making judgement calls, and to be honest, even with my [yawn] background, I would find it very difficult to fill in any report form honestly and fairly, it is mostly judgemental.
I would be comparing all stabling, to my experience in Racing, where stabling, bedding, feed and water, transport, general management, and vet supervision could be considered as five star [or is that five thistles] and most livery yards come in around three or four [BHS approved], then there are the bog standard, with obvious shortcomings [not BHS compliant] where stabling is too small, lack of ventilation etc
Then there are "portacabins", and other badly constructed, maintained or managed yards: they should not be used for animal housing, but if for example they were inspected in summer, or when not fully occupied, or when they had been steam cleaned, they might be considered acceptable.
 
There is also the issue of care and love versus facilities.

A well loved and exercise pony kept in a ramshackle stable with a bare little patch of ground but with company and fed good quality hay/haylage might be completely fine. Wheras a horse kept alone and rarely looked at might have better facilities and 'tick boxes' but be deprived in other ways.

I have much better grazing and environment for my horses where I am now, stabling them at home in Scotland. But despite its shortcomings, I sometimes wonder if my older chap preferred the busy comings and goings on the livery yard despite the much poorer grazing available because of its location in the home counties!
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
There is also the issue of care and love versus facilities.

A well loved and exercise pony kept in a ramshackle stable with a bare little patch of ground but with company and fed good quality hay/haylage might be completely fine. Wheras a horse kept alone and rarely looked at might have better facilities and 'tick boxes' but be deprived in other ways.

I have much better grazing and environment for my horses where I am now, stabling them at home in Scotland. But despite its shortcomings, I sometimes wonder if my older chap preferred the busy comings and goings on the livery yard despite the much poorer grazing available because of its location in the home counties!
Click to expand...
It is about management: good facilities and poor management are weighed against good management and poorer facilities, I was happy to accept a [slightly] smaller than ideal stable in a yard which offered good summer and winter turnout, but horse had his own ideas, he was fine in winter, but in summer got in a tizz when ponies were in and out the field like Jack-in-the-Boxes.
 
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