Scottish stud sell off...?

eventrider23

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 April 2006
Messages
4,525
Location
Sussex
I think they were average. I believe the coloured stallion went for the top price of about £7k, a couple broodies made a few grand but the rest were below a grand, with a couple only making £60!
 

turpsamd

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 August 2008
Messages
60
Location
Aberdeenshire
Lot 23 Buttonmoon sold for £200 and I know the man who bought him, very knowledgeable and a great home. Donovan and his mum (passing cloud) both went to the same home. I got speaking to the chap afterwards and they were going back south to Sussex I think he said. Most of the broodmares and the stallions made OK money with the old ponies being the ones that sold for under £100, one rather wild looking exmoor gelding went for £20 but all the older ones went to good homes. Although they looked unkept with poor feet and very long manes and tails I wouldnt have said it was a welfare case as such. The only one to look poor was the eldest broodmare but she has gone to a great home I beleive.
 

dingle12

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 January 2005
Messages
4,530
Location
Barnsley,south yorkshire
Had the stud closed down ? why did all these horses have to be sold? i feel sorry for the older lot but glad they went to good homes when i first read this i thought the knacker man may have been involved
 

lozziehumphreys

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2008
Messages
388
It sounds like a very complicated situation, but I believe the majority of the 'assets' have been removed from the stud due to bankruptcy or something similar.

I have been sent some pictures of my new girls in their temporary homes and they look content and relaxed
 
Joined
2 November 2009
Messages
12
The stud has been declared bankrupt, so the receivers pushed for this sale to get back money as the horses are viewed as assets. I went to this sale on Saturday as I heard a lot of "talk" from different people and I was horrified by what these horses had been subjected to.

Lets look at the situation:

The receivers have been called in and have to recoup assets. The horses are seen as assets. From the sale on Saturday I heard that the SSPCA have been involved for months, if not longer, and that the horses have been under THEIR care for months prior to the sale but kept on the owners land.

If the SSPCA had been THAT worried about all these poor horses then why had they not removed them from the farm prior to all this? Reason - because it looks like they must have been working under the receivers. Receivers don’t like to spend money, they want money. So they left these horses on the farm under the care of the SSPCA so they did not lose their assets and they were kept as cheap as possible! If the SSPCA had warranted them "welfare cases" then they would have had the jurisdiction to remove them and re-home them ages ago, just as proper welfare organisations should do. However, this never happened!

From what I could see the long term welfare of these animals had not been considered at all!!! What welfare organisation puts apparent “welfare cases” to a mart to be sold, for them to be picked up and kept overnight at the mart in pens. For those horses that have been on grazing for goodness knows how long, to all of a sudden have a completely different diet introduced to them one night before a sale???? They are VERY lucky none of the horses took colic! Not to mention them being poked and prodded by a lot of people, and being in a place completely alien to them.

The horses were knee deep in straw and had hay, but at NO POINT during the day were the horses given water! I was SHOCKED by this. Not one person at the mart OR the SSPCA inspector who was in attendance did anything in this regard! The welfare was obviously not that apparent to them!

If the horses were in the care of the SSPCA why were their feet not done before the sale? Why were they not vaccinated for at least a minimum of tetanus prior to the sale? I know this because I looked at the passports after a tip off from people! None of the young horses have been vaccinated; the older ones had not been done for 4-5 years! The reason why none of the above being done………..COST….NOT WELFARE! So if none of that had been done, then the likelihood of any of them having been wormed is low!

Why on earth did the SSPCA allow older horses to go to the mart? That’s not in the best interest of their welfare?

All the horses looked completely shell-shocked and several had been sedated!!! What auction house sells sedated horses?? That was just barbaric and criminal! I also heard that some horses had injuries that had not been made known to the buyers.

And whoever purchased the Lingh 4 year old filly should be thankful to a stud owner who was picking up horses to take away. I was near the loading bays at the time, but when I looked back at the horses I heard her shouting at one of the mart men because the Lingh filly had been sedated and was practically hanging herself! It looked like she had been given so much sedation after the sale that her head was hanging over the top of the 6ft bar of the pen and drooping over the other side. If that lady had not seen it then I don’t know what the outcome would have been for that poor mare!! Very lucky that it has been seen, and where was the SSPCA inspector while all the horses were waiting to be collected????? I wonder!

Whatever the reasons behind the sale I don’t know, but what I do know is that what was done to those horses on Saturday was not in the best interest AT ALL for their welfare. The horses should have either been sold from the property or moved by the SSPCA a considerable time ago and re-homed properly.

Anyone who attended that sale on Saturday and agrees with what those horses were subjected to are a lot harder than I am!! I hope to hell someone does more about this and that the Receivers, SSPCA, Local Authority and the Mart are held in the low light that has been shown in this case! After seeing those horses on Saturday I would not give the SSPCA a fish to look after! The above are all facts of what happened on Saturday, pure and simple. They are not stories but a true picture of what happened by many people who witnessed it.

Edited to say that I am very glad to hear that many of the horses have found new homes with people who will take great care of them. That is great news after what the poor animals had been subjected to.
 

cefyl

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 May 2007
Messages
501
Location
Wales & USA
I hope that following this case and the reported disregard for animal welfare by the SSPCA that someone at the sale has photographic and/or video evidence of the conditions, and of the passport misrepresentations.

In the light of the RSPCA captive bolt / GSD saga now the so called "welfare" organisations are finally being brought to justice after showing their true colours.

Please all of you who have posted here and know the shocking truth behind this Scottish story go the the newspapers / local radio / tv / anyone who can and will make this a national story and get some justice for these poor animals.

I am glad most seem to have caring homes now.
 

Rollin

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 March 2008
Messages
4,779
The fact that the SSPCA were present and did not attend to such a basic requirement as WATER is quite shocking.

Is not their charitable status based on 'animal welfare'? It is no wonder that SOME charities no longer have the good will of the equestrian community.
 

Gingernags

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 August 2004
Messages
5,787
Location
She's behind you... heh heh heh!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I went to the office to look at the papers - most of them had a standard passport with no breeding info and had an irish issuing authority. The ones i looked at had all been issued within the last 6mo or so. Disappointing given the breeding involved. Assume buyers will need to get blood typing done to confirm pedigrees?

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, frm checking on NED it would appear that apart from Blackford Dream Wedding (AHS pedigree not updated to new UELN passport format) and Willowdale Souvenir (old style WPCS passport not updated to new UELN passport format) ONLY Tullynessle Sunday Girl, Tullynessle Busilus, Tyllynessle Saturday Boy and Tullynessle Gale Force have UELNs issued by an ID-only PIO (in each case Horse Pssport Agency) and ALL others should have been sold with pasports isued by their original breed society. Even if they had not been mircochipped by the day of the sale it is not an offence to sell an unmicrochipped animal -- whilst it is an offenc eto issue a passport to an animal with an existing EU-recognsied 16-digit UELN as this indicates that a correclty issued passport already exists. The offenc ehere lies with the venodr (the trustees in this case not Tullynessle, the auctioneer and the ID-only PIO concerned with issuing the second passport) and if anyone bought a horse at this auction (espeically one that has a passport beginning 826069) and suspects that it should have / already has a proper pasport from a recognised EU studbook here or abroad) do feel free to PM me with the details and I'll see what I can do to help direct you to the right organisation to resolve the issue.

The purchasers of any foals that they beleive are in the process of having papers isiued to them by a UK or foreging studbook following earlier microchipping are also free to contact me for help if they wish.

The purchasers of Blackford Dream Wedding and Willowdale Souvenir should contact the Arab Horse Society and the Welsh Pony and Cob Society repsectively to tget their passports updated to the correct format.

This all has the makings of a real mess registration-wise but hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I have picked up on, a good number of the horses have now got TWO microchips and TWO passports.

In order to get the sale done "legally" with a passport, the breed society passports and chips were ignored and new chips and cheap passports done.

Makes a mockery of the whole passport law, no wonder when we pay out for legitimate chips and passports, we aren't safe, when this was done with full knowledge of the SSPCA.

That will be a hell of a mess to sort out and the poor horses being subjected to that.
 

S_N

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 June 2005
Messages
14,109
Location
Toliman
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I went to the office to look at the papers - most of them had a standard passport with no breeding info and had an irish issuing authority. The ones i looked at had all been issued within the last 6mo or so. Disappointing given the breeding involved. Assume buyers will need to get blood typing done to confirm pedigrees?

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, frm checking on NED it would appear that apart from Blackford Dream Wedding (AHS pedigree not updated to new UELN passport format) and Willowdale Souvenir (old style WPCS passport not updated to new UELN passport format) ONLY Tullynessle Sunday Girl, Tullynessle Busilus, Tyllynessle Saturday Boy and Tullynessle Gale Force have UELNs issued by an ID-only PIO (in each case Horse Pssport Agency) and ALL others should have been sold with pasports isued by their original breed society. Even if they had not been mircochipped by the day of the sale it is not an offence to sell an unmicrochipped animal -- whilst it is an offenc eto issue a passport to an animal with an existing EU-recognsied 16-digit UELN as this indicates that a correclty issued passport already exists. The offenc ehere lies with the venodr (the trustees in this case not Tullynessle, the auctioneer and the ID-only PIO concerned with issuing the second passport) and if anyone bought a horse at this auction (espeically one that has a passport beginning 826069) and suspects that it should have / already has a proper pasport from a recognised EU studbook here or abroad) do feel free to PM me with the details and I'll see what I can do to help direct you to the right organisation to resolve the issue.

The purchasers of any foals that they beleive are in the process of having papers isiued to them by a UK or foreging studbook following earlier microchipping are also free to contact me for help if they wish.

The purchasers of Blackford Dream Wedding and Willowdale Souvenir should contact the Arab Horse Society and the Welsh Pony and Cob Society repsectively to tget their passports updated to the correct format.

This all has the makings of a real mess registration-wise but hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I have picked up on, a good number of the horses have now got TWO microchips and TWO passports.

In order to get the sale done "legally" with a passport, the breed society passports and chips were ignored and new chips and cheap passports done.

Makes a mockery of the whole passport law, no wonder when we pay out for legitimate chips and passports, we aren't safe, when this was done with full knowledge of the SSPCA.

That will be a hell of a mess to sort out and the poor horses being subjected to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which as more than one of us are aware, happens regularly!!
 

joeanne

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 May 2008
Messages
5,322
Location
Cornwall
Two microchips??
I thought they had to be scanned to check for a chip before implating could take place!
Makes a mockery of the whole system if this has happened.
What a mess!
 

S_N

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 June 2005
Messages
14,109
Location
Toliman
I believe that there are 4 different types of chip, requiring 4 different scanners, therefore it's easy to say that a horse was scanned and found not to be chipped!
 

magic104

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 April 2006
Messages
6,156
Sorry, but I am at a loss to understand why horses from this sale now have 2 passports?? Are posters stating that due to the nature of the sale of these horses their original passports were unavailable? If so surely they had enough time to arrange duplicates, especially for any MC'd animals. Also how legal is it to sedate a horse for selling? None of this sounds very professional at all.
 

S_N

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 June 2005
Messages
14,109
Location
Toliman
You'd be surprised then to hear how many horses are mildly sedated that go through the sales rings around the globe? As a helluva a lot are! I am in NO WAY condoning what was done here though!!
 
Joined
2 November 2009
Messages
12
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I am at a loss to understand why horses from this sale now have 2 passports?? Are posters stating that due to the nature of the sale of these horses their original passports were unavailable? If so surely they had enough time to arrange duplicates, especially for any MC'd animals. Also how legal is it to sedate a horse for selling? None of this sounds very professional at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Magic, I was informed (rightly or wrongly) that three horses had passport applications in Germany and these are waiting to be paid (500 euros each) and one had all the documentation for a KWPN passport and this was waiting to be sent to Holland. However "I believe" the receivers were not willing to either wait nor pay for this, therefore applied for ones from the Horse Passport Agency.

This is what I found on the Horse Passport Agency website:

[ QUOTE ]
Breed Societies

Many horses and ponies will have already been issued with some form of registration document in the past or be eligible for registration from a breed society. In such cases do not apply for an Identity Passport with us until you have contacted the relevant breed society as this document may already be a legal passport (therefore you will be breaking the law if you apply for a second one) or could be updated to become a legal passport (which may be cheaper than applying to us and give you a more complete passport)

[/ QUOTE ]

And I would like to make comment on the [ QUOTE ]
(therefore you will be breaking the law if you apply for a second one)

[/ QUOTE ]

It would have been interesting to have someone independent there who could scan all the horses to see just how many had two chips in them.


As for the doping of the horses.......that is just PLAIN WRONG! It was not even taking the edge off, it was practically putting them to sleep.
 

Diggory

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 August 2008
Messages
58
I know some of us know more than others about the circumstances that brought about the sale, but I am horrified for these poor animals that a welfare authority - the SSPCA - decided the best way to deal with matters was to send them to market (albeit by very professional transporters, rather than the original cattle floats that were suggested), and deliberately put them in an alien and inevitably stressful environment. Some of the entries were way older than the ages catalogued, and a few were carrying injuries that were not raised at point of sale, as the terms were ‘sold as seen’, but none of them need to have suffered the whole market exercise. The whole sale could have been dealt with at their home, causing a lot less trauma to the horses. Because of the physical set up at the market - livestock-orientated, and not very horse-friendly - the stock were all penned side by side on the day of the sale, and as a result, some of the stallions had to be doped, and all the stallions bar the Welshie were sold from the pens. Many of the mares were very unhappy and completely depressed. They were strawed and hayed, but water was not in evidence and more than one were displaying signs of impending colic.

It's bad enough that the sale had to happen at all - and the reasons behind it are frankly none of anyone's business, save for a salutary lesson to be learned - but surely the SSPCA could have taken a much stronger hold on this and dictated that exposure of these animals to a market situation was not in the best interests of their welfare. It is understood that the sale needed to take place, but there was no need to punish the horses in this way, and nothing was gained, save for the animals having been stressed completely unnecessarily. The whole passport and micro-chipping fiasco is a whole other debacle which I do not envy anyone unravelling.

BTW - Those who have been happily slinging mud about the owners of these horses here and on various other forums should consider their position re. libel and in real life, slander if they wish to continue to provoke antipathy towards said owners. It is all very well to bustle with outrage about them, but without the full facts, the bluster ultimately only makes the speaker/writer feel better and achieves nothing. Much of the griping also seems founded on embarrassment at having been seen to be involved with the owners, and is therefore based primarily on selfish motive rather than true compassion for the ultimate victims in all this – the horses.
 
Joined
6 July 2007
Messages
16
The passports i looked at were in relation to the horses i was interested in... i was surprised that they were identity docs only and not breeding papers as such as both had in the catalogue details of 1st or 2nd premiums from SSH. So would have been a fair assumption that these had SSH papers. I guess now the new owners of all these horses have a bit of sorting out to do!

As to sedation - i agree that quite a few of the horses did look mildly sedated, however, i talked to the vet who was on duty and she said only 1 of the stallions was sedated... Contrary to this my friends husband who is a regular mart goer had been talking to the mart guys who said ALL the horses had been given 2mls. Personally i dont have an issue with sedation taking place if it helps the horse deal better with the situation in hand.

It was a sad sale and the horses did look unkempt but none were in a total state. At least all seem to have found homes - the younger horses now have a chance of fulfilling their potential and the older ones can hopefully get a bit of condition on!
 

pinkcatkin

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 November 2007
Messages
1,630
Location
East Anglia
I think that the SSPCA's actions re allowing this to go ahead, and in particular, the fact that elderly ponies had to undergo such stress, should be questioned. Surely common sense would dictate that it was inhumane for some if not all of these animals to face this ordeal.

I hope that such questions will continue to be asked until the full facts of this case are known publicly. The only reason I can think of is that their hands were in some way tied by the company forcing this sale. And if that is the case, then that has to be questioned too.
 
Joined
2 November 2009
Messages
12
[ QUOTE ]
Contrary to this my friends husband who is a regular mart goer had been talking to the mart guys who said ALL the horses had been given 2mls

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats an interesting point you make there because on arrival I heard someone make that comment, i.e. the horses were much too quiet than they should have been!

Also as the auctioneer only stated the stallions had been sedated, I wonder if all the horses passports were updated to say that sedation had taken place. Including the Lingh filly at the end!

The comment about sedation to make their stress more comfortable is ok, but it should never have been like that to start with IMHO.
 

toffeesmarty

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 October 2007
Messages
1,017
There are clearly lessons to be learned for local authorities, welfare organisations and everyone who owns horses in this country. it is inevitable given the current economic climate and impending laws such as the horse tax - that others will fall into the same desperate situation.
I agree with Diggory, now is not the time to sling abuse around. it is time though for local authorities and welfare organisations to sit round the table and work out local strategies so that NO horse or pony has to suffer the same experience ever again.
 
Joined
6 July 2007
Messages
16
Which was the Lingh filly? Lot 19 T Busilus? At the end we walked back through and the mart were moving cattle at the other side which understandably was rattling the horses. This particular filly was closest to the cattle and was quite upset - trying to climb out over her pen. The mart guys were dealing with trying to sort it out but she was pretty worked up so it is possible they sedated her at that point - i dont know i'm jsut thinking outloud here.

thanks - glad you think my comment about stress is ok


Again just thinking outloud (yes agree horses were quiet pre-sale) but it is possible they were all just exhausted from the whole experience.

None of this sale sits comfortably but it is what it is and thankfully a positive ending for all concerned.
 

siennamum

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 February 2004
Messages
5,565
Location
Bristol
The owners have my sympathy. I know nothing about the circumstances, but that they had kept their old, much loved ponies is testament to the affection they had for the animals. Sounds like the condition of the animals was out of their hands. It must have been devastating to see their much loved animals go though that.
 

jamesmead

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 October 2009
Messages
182
Sorry to be absent so long from this discussion.

As others have noted, my original post on this subject was removed; I trust Admin will not mind me posting a copy of the explanatory pm.: [ QUOTE ]
Dear James

Your bankcrupcy posts have been removed from the forum because the SSPCA have been in touch with us and stated that some of the claims in your post are inaccurate and defamatory. However, the H&H news desk is now aware of this matter and will be investigating the situation for a possible news story. They may wish to speak to you about this so if you could PM us a telephone number where we can contact you that would be extremely helpful.

Kind regards

HHO Admin

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely hope HHO DO run this as a news story.

My original post was indeed posted in haste and was based in part on rumour; however, as the facts emerge and are clarified, it seems, shockingly, that the original post was largely accurate.

For those who remember it I would like to correct elements of this post and confirm what we now know as fact.

The horses were transported by a reputable firm - Gillies - and not all the injured animals were moved; the elderly laminitic pony escaped the sale, though seemingly, to judge by an earlier post, only to face the next sale alone. So yet another unsuitable animal; (22 years old and laminitic?) is to go through the ring whilst in the care of a "Welfare" society.

It seems that Gillies themselves queried the orders to shift a horse with a deep flexor tendon injury- and that this horse was OK'd for travel by the SSPCA rep. I am told that the SSPCA employee pre-empted the vet, who was on his way, despite being aware that the horse was carrying a serious injury. If I am incorrect, and the vet appointed made this decision, then I apologise - and would be glad to know the name of that vet so that his / her professionalism can be formally called in question. Clearly SOMEONE cleared the horse for travel and sale, despite full knowledge of this horses' injury. Fortunately the buyer contacted the ex-owner; I think I am right in saying that this animal's injury was not advertised at the sale.

The passport fiasco is, quite simply, massively illegal, as so ably pointed out by Ciss.

It is worth remembering that the original purpose of passports was to prevent medicated animals from entering the foodchain; animals sold at a sale of this kind are more likely than most to end up in the meat market; so there is also a public health / animal health (petfood) issue here and a quite gross disregard for the original purpose of this law.

The auction house was aware of the illegality of the passport situation before the sale. I can confirm that; a phone call was made on my behalf, and I am aware that others phoned too.

I would suggest that the representation of a 37 year old pony as a 24 year old, for the purposes of sale, amounts to fraud.

I think that the key factor in securing some sort of happy future for these horses, let down by just about every organisation and authority entrusted with their welfare, has been the interest and helpfulness and humanity of other horse owners; I salute you all.
 

AengusOg

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 December 2007
Messages
799
Location
Scotland
Is that why I can't find the post I made a few minutes ago?

I can't understand why it would be edited.............I don't think I said anything inflammatory or wrong, did I?
 

jamesmead

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 October 2009
Messages
182
I have just been pm'd by Admin objecting to my sharing the pms previously sent (giving the reason for the pulling of the original thread as being by request of the SSPCA, the contact number for the SSPCA and the interest by Horse and Hound in running an article, all of which information could usefully have been in the public domain, I would have thought) and informing me that a post had been deleted.

I feel that information passed to me which is not personal or confidential is mine to pass on if appropriate and I decline to accept that a pm of this kind contains an automatic gagging order.

Moreover I cannot understand why numerous posts by other users have also been deleted; nothing there seemed unreasonable; there was a lot of useful discussion and clarification from Ciss and others on the passport issue, for example.

However, I feel that the fact that these deletions are being made says as much, in some ways, as the posts themselves; the numerous issues that this case has raised are serious and cannot be allowed to be quietly pushed under the carpet.

One of the deleted posts in particular (by AengusOg?) had some really interesting suggestions as what the horse industry needs here; I hope this is re-posted.
 

AengusOg

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 December 2007
Messages
799
Location
Scotland
[ QUOTE ]
However, I feel that the fact that these deletions are being made says as much, in some ways, as the posts themselves; the numerous issues that this case has raised are serious and cannot be allowed to be quietly pushed under the carpet.

One of the deleted posts in particular (by AengusOg?) had some really interesting suggestions as what the horse industry needs here; I hope this is re-posted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you jamesmead........if only for clarifying that I did indeed make that post.
 
Top